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The endocannabinoid system's relationship to heart rate, anxiety, and micro-dosing

Geekster

Greenlighter
Joined
Nov 21, 2014
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14
Hello Bluelighters!

I have a few questions about the endocannabinoid system and some and personal experiments observations about Cannabis I'd like to share.

I'd smoked Cannabis for many years, but then got away from it when I was older and raising a family. Toward the end of my use I noted an up-tick in an anxiety reaction, which as evidenced by the posts in this forum, is quite common.

A year or so ago I began having some anxiety symptoms due to some personal life challenges, although I'd had occasional bouts before, this was more persistent (and unfortunately hereditary in my case). I recalled wistfully all the many times I'd been able to "chill" because of cannabis, and longed to try it again, but figured I'd better try the Doctor first. After consulting a doctor on the anxiety issues and getting only a prescription to xanax (which I had reservations about), I decided to find some good old fashioned weed and try it out again. Bad news, anxiety reaction is what I found, the opposite of what I wanted.

But I'm a persistent fellow and figured since I had the stuff, why not try to figure out if there was a way to make it useful. The first thing I did was get a vaporizer, and that certainly helps, but was not a full solution. I began to try to study the "anxiety" response, for example I tracked my heart rate. As has been reported in the literature as a negative side effect of using cannabis, I found I was having a dramatic increase in my heart rate on occasions, spiking as high as 136 BPM (a rate I normally have to be exercising to reach). As has also been reported with others, I saw a decided reduction in motor function (a ball catch exercise being the control measurement). I finally also noted a slight palsy (with only some strains).

I finally figured out that using a very small amount of cannabis would result in a considerable reduction of the negatives, while giving me a very pleasant low-level buzz. Eureka! OK, maybe not rocket science here, but on the right track!

I tried a few strains, and all were quite usable if I kept the dosage very low. I don't have lab equipment to accurately measure the dosage, but I'd bet the amount I use (grounded) is about 1/16th-1/20th of a teaspoon. About 1/2 the volume of a pencil's eraser (the portion that is exposed on a pencil, to be precise).

I'm now wondering if we could actually improve cannabis by breeding out the specific chemicals that produce some of the unpleasant effects, and leave the ones we like.

A good place to start might be the issue of increased heart rate. I'd like to try to understand more exactly how cannabis can increase heart rate. I suspect that the cannabis is interacting with the nervous system area that goes into effect during a normal stressful event. It's well known that being scared for example increases your heart rate. However, during these times respiration also normally increases, and cannabis does not elicit this response (at least not what I've read). This would suggest that cannabis is eliciting only a partial equivalent of a stress response in the nervous system now.

I'm wondering if it would be possible to isolate the specific chemicals in cannabis that generates the increased heart rate, and breed it out (or breed something else in the block it)? Or is the chemical that causes the heart rate increase the same that makes cannabis fun to use and good for "chillin'" (CBD or THC)?

Do we have any precise ideas about what chemicals in cannabis cause the increased heart rate?

Thanks for anyone's informed and insigtful replies! :)

PS. I've found that doing mindfulness exercises is the best approach for anxiety.
 
Try a pure cbd formulation that lacks thc. There's ones derived from hemp on amazon although they are 3x the price of my local collectives cbd tincture with 15 mg cbd to 0.5 mg thc. Using around 5-10 mg cbd 2-4x a day was useful for me and may be useful for you too
 
I'm wondering if it would be possible to isolate the specific chemicals in cannabis that generates the increased heart rate, and breed it out (or breed something else in the block it)? Or is the chemical that causes the heart rate increase the same that makes cannabis fun to use and good for "chillin'" (CBD or THC)?

The increased heart rate is an effect of THC. It can certainly be bred out but that's no fun.
 
Thanks tacodude. This is almost the regimen I follow with cannabis (1-2 times daily very small amount). I will have to explore how the CBD works. I have to say that I'm blown away that it is sold on Amazon though. Clearly this has not psychoactive effects. However, I'm aware that some more conservative states in the US have made a big deal about allowing "CBD oil", paying lip service to the idea of medical marijuana. I'd presumed that since they'd made it "legal" that it would have previously been illegal. Maybe the whole thing was just political pandering.
 
The increased heart rate is an effect of THC. It can certainly be bred out but that's no fun.
Are you certain of that? I took a look at this list of side effects for Marinol (the synthetically produced THC-based drug), and note that the increased heart rate is listed only as an infrequent side effect:

http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-9308/marinol-oral/details/list-sideeffects

So, I'm wondering if the heart-rate increase could be caused by something in addition to the THC. Of course it could be that the Marinol's dosage (apprently 2.5 - 5mg) is what is minimizing the side effect. The dosing heart rate connection being well documented:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23937597

Geekster
 
I have to say the pharmaceutical development is very interesting

http://www.gwpharm.com/mechanism-of-action.aspx

Edit: remember marinol is pure delta 9 thc. Cannabis and extracts usually contain delta 1-7 and possibly more although I do not know for sure. That could already create a substantial effect difference besides also having terpenes and cbx, cbxv, and thcv. There's so many compounds it's crazy
 
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Are you certain of that? I took a look at this list of side effects for Marinol (the synthetically produced THC-based drug), and note that the increased heart rate is listed only as an infrequent side effect:

http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-9308/marinol-oral/details/list-sideeffects

So, I'm wondering if the heart-rate increase could be caused by something in addition to the THC. Of course it could be that the Marinol's dosage (apprently 2.5 - 5mg) is what is minimizing the side effect. The dosing heart rate connection being well documented:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23937597

Geekster

I'm pretty sure yes. And a quick google search seems to verify that too. Being mentioned as an infrequent side effect for Marinol surely has to do with the dose.

But I'm sure you're right and other things are involved, some strains are certainly more racy than others and it doesn't have to do with (just) THC content. So yep, strains have been bred for different likings... I suppose it hasn't been very scientific, just "human testing". But at least a couple of breeders are starting to use lab analysis too.

But many of the unpleasant side effects are side effects of THC. Don't think you'll be able to eliminate them without making a low/no THC strain... well, plenty of those do exist.
 
Thanks for the replies 421 & tacodude!

Did a bit more research, and came across this extremely interesting study on the effect of Surinabant (a CB1 receptor antagonist developed for weight control, and smoking cessation).

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bcp.12071/full

This study was able to demonstrate a blocking of the heart rate response in the central nervous system when THC is administered.

What I'm not clear on in the study (it's pretty technical) is if it also blocked the high produced by THC.

CBD also is a CB1 receptor antagonist, therefore some of the advice I've heard about finding high CBD strains makes good sense.

I wonder how strains like Harlequin feel when used? Do you still get the positives? Is the CBD adequate to block things like increased heart rate? I'm also curious if anyone has tried to use CBD extracts (such as are available on Amazon) to block racing heart responses when using MJ.

Would love to hear from a few Bluelighters whom may have some experience.
 
Never had the pleasure of smoking Harlequin but remember a funny comment about it...

I would have NO problem giving a complete canna-noob (as in ZERO tolerance) several dabs of harlequin oil and have them immediately drive me somewhere. Seriously

:D

But apparently it's pleasant nevertheless.

Here's the full discussion where it's from if you're interested: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=274465
 
Just had a high dose sublingual cbd experience, which was quite interesting. It was like being super high than hit by a wall then still high although a bit more grounded, centered, and focused. Hard to explain. Pain was noticeable, but not worse although less sedated I guess..... Hard to explain
 
Sublingual? So like a tincture or somesuch? Ahhh....if only I had the option. Hopefully soon!
 
anyone know of any reliable sources I can get hold of some CBD in the UK? thanks in advance.
 
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