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The Big & Dandy ++++ Thread

specialspack is right. Of course one can create one own's scale and use and their own will. Naturally that RobotRipping's ++++ is not equal to Shulgin's ++++. But if one can hope to communicate it's better that we share the same language and reference scales. Shulgin was very careful with naming an experience a ++++, and he got it 3 or 4 times in his entire life. PiHKAL has a nice little chapter about a deep experience that Sasha had with, of all things, 2C-T-4. It's a very worth read and provides a deep insight about what is in fact the nature of a ++++.
 
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Interesting thread. A question about ego death came up on another forum, this is my attempt at an explanation. I think what follows generally covers what I think would constitute a ++++ or peak experience. I'd be interested in others' take on it:

It's a difficult subject to put into words because ego death transcends the language we use to interpret and structure our experience of the internal and external world. Very difficult to capture. Kind of outside of your usual self observing the workings of your own psyche as a linguistic construct like it's a child's plaything. Usual modes of thinking are redundant as you become the single point of pure awareness from which everything springs into being. This is why psychonauts talk about union, oneness, etc. Everything flows from you and is permeated by you. There is no longer an I in the usual sense as something distinct from external reality. You kind of actively create the universe moment by moment. This is the Godlike aspect of the psychedelic experience. Doesn't really make sense to talk about it except with other's who've experienced the state, it's not a very recognisable state to those who haven't.
 
^Ego dissolution is, in itself, not congruous with a ++++.

Anyway we ought to try to stick to Shulgin's definitions when using the Shulgin Scale.

I have had one ++++, wouldn't care if I never had another, because in a way the one never really left me.


RobotRipping, that other tripping scale seems more your bag, the one with the levels that they use over at the shroomery.

(This might be merged with the B&D ++++ thread)
 
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I can only concur with Rorthron and Never Knows Best. Read what Shulgin says about his ++++ experiences, and understand what his scale means. If you want to use your own scale, or use his scale to mean different things, that's fine, but it isn't Shulgin's scale.

The nice thing about the Shulgin scale, is that it makes sense across different people's experiences. It's based on the premise that a person has only a handful of peak experiences in their life - if you had them all the time, they wouldn't be "peak" experiences, by definition.
 
i was only claiming i had ++++ on DMT, never on escaline, i just thought it was possible if i took it escaline at 100mg dose i'd likely get a +++ or a ++++, ie a peak experience. as i've tried 50-60-80mg doses and it gets intense with each bump up. That was just my theory, don't know if it's true or not. I've had one breakthrough experience on mushrooms out of tons of times using them. . Until you've tried escaline, you can let me know what happens at 100mg, it's a potent psychedelic compared to mescaline.

My other claim is that a breakthrough DMT experience is equal to a ++++. Can you really argue against that? if you're in hyperspace i think you've hit ++++, next up is +++++ which i find can happen when people smoke too much salvia and cant' even remember what happened. I don't think i am deviating from Shulgin's scale anyway, it's a bit vague to start ie. what is mystical and who interprets that? what is transcendent? the whole thing is subjective. If i feel 150mg of DMT vaped is transcendent that'd make it a ++++ on Shulgin's scale.

I really i've only had probably 5 experiences (unless we're counting 4th plateau DXM doses) that i would qualify as a ++++ out of probably 500 (or more lost count) trips. Sounds like the numbers match up with Shuglin's as well.
 
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^ If I use your logic, around 18 of my 40 trips have been ++++ seeing as that's all the times I've broken through on DMT, in addition to one 4-AcO-DMT experience.

My other claim is that a breakthrough DMT experience is equal to a ++++. Can you really argue against that? if you're in hyperspace i think you've hit ++++, next up is +++++
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I feel like the previous posters have argued why even a breakthrough DMT experience isn't a ++++, and made that clear. It's not just an extremely strong, dissociating, transcendental experience. It's one at the perfect time in your life, when you're in the perfect mindset, at peace. Where the stars align.

And yes, you are deviating from Shulgin's scale by using +++++ It goes from + - ++++, I don't see how you're making the claim you aren't. It's very subjective, but there's a scale for a reason.
 
next up is +++++
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++++ is not an intensity thing. Whether we're talking just really hard tripping, or ego death, or an OBE, that's a +++ on the Shulgin Scale. As I said, it sounds like you're using this scale:
the shroomery said:
Level 1

This level produces a mild "stoning" effect, with some visual enhancement (i.e. brighter colours, etc). Some short term memory anomalies. Left/right brain communication changes causing music to sound "wider".

Level 2

Bright colors, and visuals (i.e. things start to move and breathe), some 2 dimensional patterns become apparent upon shutting eyes. Confused or reminiscent thoughts. Change of short term memory leads to continual distractive thought patterns. Vast increase in creativity becomes apparent as the natural brain filter is bypassed.

Level 3

Very obvious visuals, everything looking curved and/or warped patterns and kaleidoscopes seen on walls, faces etc. Some mild hallucinations such as rivers flowing in wood grained or "mother of pearl" surfaces. Closed eye hallucinations become 3 dimensional. There is some confusion of the senses (i.e. seeing sounds as colors, etcetera). Time distortions and "moments of eternity".

Level 4

Strong hallucinations, i.e. objects morphing into other objects. Destruction or multiple splitting of the ego. (Things start talking toyou, or you find that you are feeling contradictory things simultaneously). Some loss of reality. Time becomes meaningless. Out ofbody experiences and e.s.p. type phenomena. Blending of the senses.

Level 5

Total loss of visual connection with reality. The senses cease to function in the normal way. Total loss of ego. Merging with space, other objects, or the universe. The loss of reality becomes so severe that it defies explanation. The earlier levels are relatively easy to explain in terms of measureable changes in perception and thought patterns. This level is different in that the actual universe within which things are normally perceived, ceases to exist! Satorienlightenment (and other such labels).
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A ++++ is when existence makes sense

but not really though.

you'll know when you've made it there.

read Be Here Now by Ram Dass then you might barely have an impression of what a ++++ is.

out of body is a good way to begin to describe it.
 
I think there are many misunderstandings about ++++ states, possibly because it would be logical if there would be a difference in rating between tripping very hard, hard enough not to be able to ignore it (+++) and reaching a mystical state (strong +++). It seems many feel we are missing a level there and the mystical state is what should have been called ++++. Maybe I should just speak for myself: in any case that is what I think, it certainly plays a role in the confusion and miscommunication.

As Shulgin originally meant it, as explained numerous times in these threads, is that it indicates an enlightening and/or life altering aspect that cannot be reliably reproduced. I think mystical states are not that, and mystical states are relatively easy to reproduce if you take a hell of a lot of the right drug in a proper setting.
Adyashanti explains in the book "The End of your World" that there is a common mistake made that enlightenment is the same as a mystical state while certain ways they are even opposite. In mystical states you can get OOBE's and are often just gone to some other plane of existence. That is only moderately core-shaking though. The truly amazing thing, not as elitist as you might think, is being completely and utterly your native state of self. Yes SONN, exactly as you indicate that Ram Dass also points to in Be Here Now.

People who fail to understand this don't seem to be able to accept that there is a level rating missing for their mystical states, and they feel that their experiences deserve distinguishing recognition. I completely understand that, but it just doesn't change the unfortunately awkward facts about how the rating system was originally intended.

It is also unavoidable that since truly life altering ++++ states are so very elusive, those that get them mixed up with +++ might feel like others are trying to devalue what they went through and that they are all worthy and should not be trumped.

I have said before that we should be careful judging other people's experiences or rating them, however I DO agree that people who talk like ++++ can be induced as if they were mystical states are kind of missing the point. Because ++++'s are a result of the sum of set and setting and despite what you may believe we cannot completely choose our set and setting however we want to. We cannot choose for our lives to be at a special junction, the course of which may be altered forever more. We can only hope to choose our predispositions as ideal as possible within our marginally narrow window of opportunities. Even if we want to be ready for it, that doesn't always make us ready. When we are though... I think it doesn't have to be anything special we need to take for that ++++ because then it is only a manner of catalyzing a personal development that was being prepared to be put into motion.
 
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Never Knows Best said:
^Ego dissolution is, in itself, not congruous with a ++++.
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Why not? Using Shulgins scale a +++ is:

PLUS THREE (+++) Not only are the chronology and the nature of a drug's action quite clear, but ignoring its action is no longer an option. The subject is totally engaged in the experience, for better or worse.
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Nowhere does ego death figure in that I would have thought, that's a measure solely of how intense the effects are as to whether they can be ignored going about your everyday business, or not. Ego death would preclude that, surely, you're beyond a +++ by default? Besides, I was talking primarily about the sense of union, all things flowing from you, being contained within you. Samadhi is the union of the knower and the known, the internal and the external, the total breakdown of the subject / object dichotomy, including language predicated on it, yes? That's what I was driving at, not ego death per se.
 
Ego disintegration would still be a misnomer though IMO, because in that union you are talking about the ego is not gone but fully integrated in the whole. It recognizes that a game is being played, when there is ego dissolution one "steps out" of this game. In samadhi the game is played along while fully knowing it is nothing more than a game or a veil.
I get that you might be trying to say that semantics can be tricky here.
 
yeah fine just because shulgin says its a rare experience means it can only happen rarely right? if i were some big name in psychedelic research i'd change the criteria for a ++++ but since i'm not then fine, a full DMT breakthrough is not a ++++ i concede and don't really care either. It's just a silly way to quantify an unqauntifiable experience, so don't get too hung up on the rating scale, it's useless and subjective at best.
 
Up to +++ I think the system can be helpful but beyond that people just need to use their vocabulary instead. Yes I totally agree RR, I think it is doomed to fail and even words can not help with the ineffable. Very frustrating indeed but not all energy may be lost when we help each other by reflecting.
 
RobotRipping said:
yeah fine just because shulgin says its a rare experience means it can only happen rarely right? if i were some big name in psychedelic research i'd change the criteria for a ++++ but since i'm not then fine, a full DMT breakthrough is not a ++++ i concede and don't really care either. It's just a silly way to quantify an unqauntifiable experience, so don't get too hung up on the rating scale, it's useless and subjective at best.
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You're missing the point of what Shulgin was trying to achieve with his scale. He's not attempting to quantify the ineffable, hence the comment that +4 "is not connected to the +1, +2, and +3 of the measuring of a drug's intensity".

It's a simple, broad scale that is different for different substances. Hence

PLUS THREE (+++) Not only are the chronology and the nature of a drug's action quite clear, but ignoring its action is no longer an option. The subject is totally engaged in the experience, for better or worse.
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A full +++ on say, 5-MeO-DMT is very different to a +++ on, say 2C-B. The former would include severe ego distortion, the latter wouldn't, for one thing, and the visual and perceptual changes would be very different.

Adding a +5 just seems to be heading in the direction of "more fucked up = better", especially when you talk about salvia causing memory loss. It's possible to batter your consciousness to bits by taking bigger and bigger doses, with any substance...
 
i don't see it as a level of fucked up ness, i have read the scale. +++++ = not even remembering the experience. ++++ = transcendent, which means different things to different people. +++ strong ass trip and so on. They are just different experience, not even dose dependent but i like to argue on that point. I think there should be another meter to measure psychedelic experiences between +++ and ++++. There's not much point to put any of these experiences on a scale, i mean what use is that other than communicating to others what kind of experience they may experience from a substance?

either way, shulgin has his scale and people use it to some success to describe their experiences, i can't argue with that. Perhaps i should have just mentioned that I go by the robotripping scale lol and it deviates from the shulgin scale, then this whole thread would have saved me some time and energy.
 
If it's not too much trouble, could someone point me to the sections in [PT]ihkal where ++++ experiences are described? A 2C-T-4 report has been alluded to in this thread, but I did not find it in the (publicly available) PIHKAL #41 section. Thanks!

Edit: To be clear, I did find the 2C-T-4 section, but no references to a ++++ experience within it. I guess it can be found in a different chapter?
 
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It's in the first part of the book, which doesn't contain recipes but is more autobiographical.
Don't think it's available online though. Buying the book would be a great way to support the Shulgin family.
 
Achten said:
It's in the first part of the book, which doesn't contain recipes but is more autobiographical.
Don't think it's available online though. Buying the book would be a great way to support the Shulgin family.
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Ah, I suspected that might be the case. And yes, I agree with you regarding buying the book.
 
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