THC Isomerization & THC Acetate

[PHD_in_PRT]

I have done a lot of research and reading on the isomerization of THC and the conversion into THC-acetate. Everything you read says that isomerization can double the potency of your hash oil and converting it to THC acetate will double it again.

Now I have done the research and have read about it on all of the forums that deal with this topic, but I have NEVER found any first hand experiences with either of these.

Is there anyone here that has gone through the isomerization process more then once, that can comment on how it worked and whether or not it is worth the effort?

Is there anyone that has some extensive knowledge on THC acetate and is there anyone that has used THC acetate and you are 100% certain that it was THC acetate? Is THC acetate any different then regular THC and again, is it worth the effort to make it?

Please only comment on any of this stuff if you have first hand knowledge or you are 100% certain that the substance you are commenting on, was isomerized THC or THC acetate. I have heard and read all of the stuff you can find on the internet, but I have NEVER seen any first hand comments from anyone that has followed the procedures.

 

[Temeraroius]

I would try posting this in ADD (advanced drug discussion), there are a lot more chemists there that would be more familiar with this type of procedure than there are in CD.

 

[thujone]

i haven't made any isomerized hash myself but i've had some and it's certainly nice. i can't comment on whether it made the thc more potent but it does seem likely since a lot less was required. regardless, the effects were those of ordinary thc so i wouldn't really bother with the effort myself.

dunno about the acetate though it's starting to sound like an interesting winter project lol. this would fare better in advanced drug discussion as temerarious pointed out, so hopefully we'll get some more enlightened responses from the chemists over there

 

[PHD_in_PRT]

Thanks for moving this to a more appropriate area. I am new and thought I had the best area.

All of the information in reagrds to this is old and I have never heard of anyone selling a refined product such as this, so this has lead me to believe that it isn't worth the effort or else we would see a lot more of it around.

THC is already a very lipid soluble substance so I really do not see why making it into an acetate would help increase its effects like a morphine to heroin conversion does.

IMO making anything more potent then a good hash oil only creates more waste since most of what we inhale is exhaled anyway. If the effect is the same and the only difference is in the potency, then I can't see how it would be worth the hassle to make something more potent when you can get the same effect from the original product.

I was hoping to get some people with first hand knowledge to reply to help verify my theory. I do not want to buy all of the equipment and waste the time if the final product doesn't give a different effect.

 

[YOUNGWOLF]

Yeah I've done the iso technique before and found it not my cup of tea. I wanted to do the acetate but availability of acetic anhydride is poor and after the iso didn't think it was worth the effort. IMO your right that if it really worked it would be on the streets. Back to the point though I did do it a number of times and considered myself skilled in those areas but the iso technique had a drop in yield to start with because of exessive handling involved ie it has to be poured into a lot of containers and every time you lose a bit as oil is extremely sticky. Also one thing thats not mentioned is heat, I cant say too much because of forum rules but it requires more heat than usual because of extended times and theres a drop again. straight up extract with ether is probably the best way to go which is simple and is not synth but purification of what you already have. As far as the iso high goes yeah its good very light though compared with black hash oil more of a thinking mans pot just a lot of work though. you need a lot of starting material though because of heavy washing if you do an ether step with your hash oil about 70% is down the drain because its mostly plant fats oils and tar but it does come out a very beautifull clear color, yellow for sativa and red for indica. All in all if you have a lot of leaf sitting there {a pound} and plenty of time then I'd say its worth the effort its certainly fun.

 

[Solipsis]

Refluxing to isomerize at this very moment :D (first time)

Apparently it depends a lot if you start from good or bad cannabis since good stuff can't be improved as much. I started with bio grown MK Ultra that is not weak per say but I'm fairly confident there are many inferior cannabinoids in there. So it should profit a lot from the process.

Acetylating always sounded like a nice project for the future despite the gross unavailability of acetic acid anhydride but someone who did it said it produced headaches so that one doesn't seem worthwhile to me now.

I realize you can get superhigh from stuff like ice-o-lator hash and it's a little bit silly to isomerize but I love (practising) chemistry and it's just awesome to have the possibility ending up with something more potent than just about anything.

Plus: there is certainly a difference between taking a little bit of ultrapotent stuff and taking a lot of weak stuff. You'd say eventually it's the same but my belief is it never can be.

DAMN I don't want this thread pruned, I want it to be a normal active one!!!

 

[Hammilton]

I have not tried acetylating it, but isomerization is something I've done lots of. I have a semi-scientific study I did posted here somewhere that I keep referring people to. I wouldn't call it evidence, but a good indication that evidence would be found. Sample size is just too small really, though. I think it's to be expected with this sort of thing, unfortunately.

gross unavailability of acetic acid anhydride but someone who did it said it produced headaches

This is the pedantic side of me, I know, but it's just acetic acid or acetic anhydride. Pointless I know, but I don't think that the what of what an anhydride is. I just wanted an excuse to explain this. I'm sure most here are more than well aware, but this thread will attract many who don't know, and it's worth noting. Gives some idea of why vineager won't substitute in heroin production Basically, AA is two Acetic acid molecules bound together- the two OH groups come together to produce one O. One oxygen and two hydrogen atoms are freed, so H2O. Hence anhydride.

 

[zilch]

I bought an ISO II from High Times many years ago and used it quite a bit. The question was whether or not the potency was actually increased or if the thc was just more concentrated. Very high quality product. The oil takes you places green can't go. The Delta 9 gives a really clean, powerful high that feels like a religious experience. Oral ingestion is on the level of Peyote and mushrooms. Very clean organic type high. I have never actually seen thc levels measured but would like to. However, from personal experience, I give isomerization a big thumbs up.

 

[Provoke]

Don't have first hand experience but it appears to have an increased activity.

I wonder what it would do if you substitute the acetate with an oxazolidinone. You would maintain the 2 oxygen atoms almost in the same position but you would have a cycle that would mostly stay at a 120 degree angle due to the double bond<<>>N repulsion. It could have more affinity for the receptors. Could be done with a Lewis acid for what I know, and BINAP maybe.

PS: 500g 333.00$ ouch ^.^
http://www.alfa-aesar.com/en/GP100w.pgm?DSSTK=A14543

I have a gut feeling that the receptor has a pocket in that area that needs to be filled. ^.^ I may be wrong.

 

[vecktor]

I have a gut feeling that the receptor has a pocket in that area that needs to be filled. ^.^ I may be wrong.

you are almost certainly wrong, the acetate will be cleaved to THC before reaching any receptor, because even though it is sterically hindered it is a phenolic acetate ester and a good substrate for esterases. THC acetate is a prodrug for THC.

 

[Turing Machine]

Lol, CB1 receptors have pockets, and all this time I've been carrying a lunch bag to work.

I've always felt this THC acetate stuff is silly, but I'm no pharmacologist. It just seems like some guy said, "Hey, acetic anhydride works for morphine, might as well work for THC". Before Mechoulam did his thing and the discovery of opioid antagonists it was suspected for a long time that cannabis acted on opioid receptors.

 

[Turing Machine]

Isomerization only works if you're working with material with a high CBD level. CBD isn't even found in significant levels in imported hashish anymore, much less any ganja. The percentage of cannabinoid in a sample that is CBD is almost solely determined by one locus with three possible alleles, two of which are almost equally codominant, the Bd and the Bt. The Bd codes for the enzyme (cbd synthase) which converts cannabigerol into CBD, the Bt codes for the enzyme which converts cannabigerol into THC (THC synthase). CBD substantially lessens the psychoactivity of THC, so if it is present in substantial levels, even removing it can make your material more potent. Material that is 1% THC is capable of getting some people high, albeit still quite weak. However if it is 1% THC and 1% CBD it is unable to produce any psychoactive effect. CBD is also much more stable than THC, so if you have a sample that was originally 50 % THC and 50% CBD but was stored poorly and all the THC had oxidized into CBN, you could isomerize the CBD and still get something worthwhile. However, like I said, unless you're trying to turn feral hemp into something psychoactive, this whole subject is a moot point. Dispersal of homozygous Bt cultivars to regions of hashish production has all but completely removed the presence of CBD from hashish. Historically, regions with hashish production often also produced culinary hemp seed. The hemp varieties which were unselected for psychoactive traits as well as feral and wild plants in places like India, Afghanistan, Pakistan would often produce stray pollen which would get into the psychoactive hashish fields and would allow CBD to keep occurring in traditionally farmed hashish varieties no matter how much selective pressure would be applied to the hashish lines. In all but a few areas where hashish is produced in large scale export quantities, it is no longer produced in a way which allows reintroduction of the Bd allele into the populations.

 

[Provoke]

you are almost certainly wrong, the acetate will be cleaved to THC before reaching any receptor, because even though it is sterically hindered it is a phenolic acetate ester and a good substrate for esterases. THC acetate is a prodrug for THC.

Yes but now do you know that there's no pocket? It might as well have a pocket and not be filled at all.

 

[dread]

Yes but now do you know that there's no pocket? It might as well have a pocket and not be filled at all.

You're suggesting that adding a functional group to a molecule to fill a hypothetical pocket would work because no one has proven to you that such a pocket doesn't exist?

Seems kinda ass-backwards if you ask me.

 

[Provoke]

You're suggesting that adding a functional group to a molecule to fill a hypothetical pocket would work because no one has proven to you that such a pocket doesn't exist?

Seems kinda ass-backwards if you ask me.

The only way to prove that a pocket exists is to add a functional group and test for activity. If the activity greatly decreases, then there's no pocket and the group you added prevents proper binding. If there is a pocket, the activity greatly increases and the drug can end up being 10 or 20x more efficient.

That's how big pharmaceutical companies like Merck&Frost make their drugs, by trial and error, or ass-backwards, like you said. For example, to make Viox or Celebrex, they tested more than 1000 different possibilities. Do you have some spiritual method of your own that I don't know of?

 

[Turing Machine]

I'm under the impression that testing for activity has little to do with binding affinity since changes to a structure can also produce changes in the half life and changes the possibility of active metabolites. In this case for example, I have yet to see evidence that THC-o-acetate has any psychoactivity on its own, and as vecktor stated it is a prodrug. I know next to nothing about the actual mechanics of cannabinoid receptors, but I'm under the impression that the term "pocket" isn't really an appropriate metaphor and that SAR's have more to do with electric/magnetic properties than size and shape. I could be entirely wrong though. My education is pretty lacking in this respect.

 

[Provoke]

I'm under the impression that testing for activity has little to do with binding affinity since changes to a structure can also produce changes in the half life and changes the possibility of active metabolites. In this case for example, I have yet to see evidence that THC-o-acetate has any psychoactivity on its own, and as vecktor stated it is a prodrug. I know next to nothing about the actual mechanics of cannabinoid receptors, but I'm under the impression that the term "pocket" isn't really an appropriate metaphor and that SAR's have more to do with electric/magnetic properties than size and shape. I could be entirely wrong though. My education is pretty lacking in this respect.

Size is very important. If a molecule is short by 0.1, nm the binding region will fail to connect as it should. It will have lower activity than a molecule that fits in perfectly. A common procedure in activity testing is to add a carbon to make chains longer, go from a 5 member ring to a 6 member ring, etc. in order to obtain the best activity. That's how we find out the relative geometry of the binding site.

 

[pofacedhoe]

CBD isn't even found in significant levels in imported hashish anymore, much less any ganja.

i think you will find that most hash contains significant levels of CBD, most standard level indian hash clearly has a lot of CBD as i provides the relaxing anxiety reducing feeling that isn't present with green or morrocan pollen

 

[dread]

most standard level indian hash clearly has a lot of CBD as i provides the relaxing anxiety reducing feeling that isn't present with green or morrocan pollen

Is it the CBD that produces that quality high of indian/nepalese hash?

 

[Turing Machine]

i think you will find that most hash contains significant levels of CBD, most standard level indian hash clearly has a lot of CBD as i provides the relaxing anxiety reducing feeling that isn't present with green or morrocan pollen

You're not a human gc/ms and detecting CBD in a sample purely by smoking it is not as easy as you think, with the only noticeable indicator being a DRASTIC reduction in potency. There's many factors that can make hashish relaxing. Pressed hashish, and especially charas have no resin gland cuticle intact to protect the THC from oxidation making it higher in CBN which can produce a relaxing effect. There's also several terpenes which have been shown to bring anxiolytic effects to cannabis products. I've personally collected seeds from hashish producing regions in India and none of them from export level producers contained any more than trace quantities of CBD. You can go to California and smoke any one of a number of Afghani #1 type plants which have a very strong relaxing effect, but they neither have CBD or CBN in any more than trace quantities.