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Tapering off. What can help make my methadone dose last for at least 24 hours?

NuitNuar

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Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
4
What can help make my methadone dose last for at least 24 hours?

I'm here for advice so that I can successfully taper off methadone as quick and painlessly as possible. I am currently at 84mg. Down from 165mg. My main issue is and always has been that my dose has never held me for at least 24 hours. I start to notice withdrawal symptoms in as few as 8 hours. I am not able to get take homes. Therefore I can not split dose, which would be ideal. I have taken multiple peak and trough blood test and my numbers are not far enough apart. I have tried a few things, including WGFJ, without the desired results. My next test will be milk thistle to try to make my dose last at least 24 hours, unless anyone knows about something better.

What can help make my methadone dose last for at least 24 hours?
 
Hi NuitNuar, Welcome to the site ! !

Congrats on tapering down to 84mg. I've taken methadone but not enough to answer your question as I did have take homes. I could move your thread to another drug forum and they could maybe merge your post, or to a recovery forum where others might be tapering off meds of various sorts. Please let me know.

In the interim we do have this -- > The Ultimate Opiate Potentiation Thread v2.0. There are also many mega threads on the site, like this -- > The Opioid Withdrawal Megathread and FAQ.

And here (MEGA MERGED METHADONE THREAD...All methadone clinic talk in here), as well as one more -- > New Methadone Mega Thread and FAQ v 3.0.

Best,
Smoky. Please feel free to ask me any questions. :)
 
Thank you. Feel free to move my question anywhere that I might get the answers I need.
 
i've heard good things about a spoon of bi-carb increasing absorption rates, but i'm not sure if that will help you taper off or just give you a bigger tolerance?
 
Commonly cited Methadone potentiators ranging from Cimetidine (Tagamet), to baking soda, to Cat's Claw, to Milk Thisle, to Grapefruit are generally not going to give anything beyond a 10% instance of potentiation, if that. In my opinion, they are not worth the time or the money.

If you're looking for a drug that will truly potentiate Methadone, there's only one that I've come across thus far. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) is an SSRI antidepressant that is considered to have certain advantages over other drugs of the same class in treating symptoms of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, but is easy enough to get. After about a week of taking Fluvoxamine, I began to notice a pretty severe increase in both the potency and duration of my daily dose. I would say a conservative estimate of the potentiation would be 30% increase in potency and a 50% increase in duration respectively.

Try it and you won't be disappointed. I guarantee it.
 
^^^^ Good advice however I myself cannot speak on the cimetidine as I've never had it but grapefruit juice to me is a hit or miss, drinking too much will cause high levels of vitamin c making you urinate more often as it increases your metabolism. I've tried both fresh bought & juice carton, both red & white lol and still wasn't able to make my mind up on weather it increased any of the effects of my doses. Trust me this was attempted many times, although I hear with Cimetidine its a very different case which is why it is being phased out for others with less to no interactions like Ranitidine (zantac) and others like that. I also cannot speak on cats claw which I've heard that it increases the methadone half life. I was very tempted on trying this but didn't have the motivation to go looking for it!

- Milk Thistle has been shown to help potentiate oxycodone in strength, and make methadone's duration longer! In my case I take it 3x a day for health reasons and it certainly doesn't hurt the methadone though it may help a bit in the enzyme department.

- Drink green tea (l-theanine has been shown to help regenerate endorphins). Whenever I drink green tea now, I *always* get so sedated I go to sleep even after drinking 6g-8g of tea (3-5 bags). White tea is even better for this purpose.

- If motivated enough taking 'walks' or if up for the challenge 'runs'....try finding a place say a block, maybe circle it 1x the first week, 2x the second week, until you get your strength up - though remember that you'll be dry sweating and this will destroy your already destroyed & hibernated immune system, making you get colds much more often, especially if your a smoker. Make sure you don't get like me where outside for 2min will have you sweating buckets and this will be on clonidine.

- If clonidine doesn't work for sweats, something that *always* works is Tylenol (regular) 650mg! It is taken in colds for this very purpose as it reduces body temperature. Similar to how opioids work actually!

- Find something to watch that you could stand to watch over again as you may only need it for sound as you should imagine what you would do if you had a VERY SEVERE flu! You will feel the need to cry at inappropriate moments or be overtly sensitive, something not wrong in itself but extremely difficult when you find yourself balling out crying at the Biggie Smalls movie. My method is I put Seinfeld or South Park, on over and over!


What to avoid/cut down on:

- Caffeine & cigarettes and any other stimulants (increase metabolism)

- Alcohol (more than 1-2 drinks, inhibits the CYP2D6 enzyme which is responsible for removing methadone from your plasma more rapidly)

- St. John's Wort & any Barbiturate esp. phenobarbital - both will inhibit the CYP2D6 enzyme, the barbiturates much more so, eliminating your methadone much quicker from your body.

- Don't be naïve! If you can do this without any opioids that's amazing but its rather better if you used something to either switch to if you find it too much to bear (methadone affects NDMA which other opioids do not) rather than go through the taper and find yourself relapsing right at the end - after a 2-3 week break say almost a month then deciding to take a dose; this is the most dangerous time to take an opioid, especially if you are a heroin user & considering that most dope users are needle users, in some cases you won't even have time to pull out the plunger! This is not exclusive to heroin however since hydromorphone & oxymorphone are just as dangerous when shot, maybe slightly less as you know the dosage but still careful not to mix your normal 10mg valium and 1mg Xanax in that mix like you used to.

I too am on MMT and I too at one point was on a high dose (200mg/day) and I dropped off to 10mg-15mg before jumping to zero, until then I decreased going off by the medical standard at the clinic. Several months later I was able to get fucked from 2-3 percocets with nods and all! This many not be what you want to hear coming off but some people may need to take some time off the program just in case, God forbid they get sick or require an operation in which case the only thing they can do to someone on methadone is to put them in a drug induced coma! This time I will be working on lowering my dose just so that I can take lower doses and have them work! While I take a certain amount a week sometimes I will be taking an extra 100mg-300mg on top of my doses that week, so its quite a jump when I get to take my normal dose which doesn't hold me as good as before! My goal is to get on suboxone, apparently the highest dose is 24mg (remember how strong & long lasting they are without tolerance & that temagesics come in 0.2mg where prescribed). Anyways they say 24mg is equal to 50mg methadone or that you must be on a dose of around 50mg/day when switching for the conversion to work!
 
Thanks for all of the advice.

I don't drink alcohol or caffeine or smoke cigarettes. I am very active 4 or more days a week. I take vitadone and other multivitamins. I am looking into adding more supplements to make me feel better more often.
WGFJ just makes my dose stronger, which I don't need. From what I've read and experienced it can actually shorten the duration of my dose, which is my problem. From what I can tell tagamet acts in a similar manner. Just stronger while it's working. Not longer.
I have tried clonidine in the past.

By its self my dose starts to wear off after 8 hours. The higher my dose the more sedate I am in those first 8 hours. I still start to get sick and start expecting withdrawal symptoms after 8 hours. 16-24 hours after my dose I am unable to function. Once I take my dose it takes 1 and 1/2 to 2 hours before I'm good to go. At least for the next 6 hours.

I took the milk thistle for the first time today and almost 12 hours after my dose I feel like it is helping.

After I see how well the milk thistle works I want to give baking soda a try too.
I will have to start drinking green and white tea on a regular daily basis again.
I'll have to look into this Luvox since this is the first I am hearing about it.

Just couple more questions.
Dosing.

Does anyone know how much milk thistle to take and when to take it to make my methadone last at least 24 hours ( or longer)?

Baking soda. Same question. And
Cats claw. Some question again. If I decide to try it.

Thanks again for all of your help. I will consider your advice and let you know what I try and how it works for me.
 
^I know this sucks OP, but I can say categorically, that none of these potential potentiators (alliteration tee hee) will get you what you are looking for. You're not looking for some slight potentiation, you're looking for at least double but hopefully triple the length of duration, while retaining a similar overall potency. That's just not going to happen and it's better you hear it up front than to drop a bunch of money on this miscellania and end up disappointed and broke.

Fluvoxamine (Luvox) is the absolute only drug that I'm aware of that could possibly assist you with your Methadone issues. You're what's called a rapid metabolizer of Methadone. This essentially means that the only way that you'll ever maintain stability with this drug is by dividing your doses, which it seems is not possible for you.

If you do want to try some of these OTC products out for yourself, I respect that. As far as dosage is concerned, I would just look at the back of the bottle, determine what the manufacturer's intended dosage is and I just wouldn't exceed that by a factor of 3.
 
Hi...
I'm currently slow tapering off myself (at 40 down from 95). I have always always found methadone, no matter what dose, to hold me about 22 hours then I start feeling minor wd symptoms. About 2 yrs ago I had a financial issue at the clinic and was forced to dose at 530 pm most days, but morning sat/sun due to that was the only hours open. So Sunday into Monday was horrible--dosed at 8 am Sunday and had to get thru to 530 Monday. At that time I did some research as you are, to see what could possibly help. (And for me, I always feel icky when I wake up. Sleep seems to take opioids out of me, same with when I did dope. But that also ties into what I'm going to say...)

What I found from researching is that methadone's half life and absorption amount is HIGHLY pH dependent. Meaning that the more alkaline your system is , the more methadone is absorbed from your dose, and the longer the half life (as they are 2 separate things)

You pass out a certain amount of methadone *unchanged* through your urine. Some people pass out up to 1/3! (Google methadone and pH; you'll find a lot of info confirming what I'm saying). So, depending on your acidity/alkalinity that 86 mg may not really be 86 absorbing

Also--one reason you see such a variation in half life of methadone (commonly expressed as 8-59 hours) is that it depends on the persons pH.

You don't really want a *potentiator* if your goal is tapering off. A potentiator would only make you feel more--which in the long run isn't going to help. You want something to extend the half life, which would give you the 24 hours (or closer to it)

The suggestion of baking soda prior to dosing is a good one. Take it about a half hour prior. It will make your stomach environment more alkaline, meaning more methadone is absorbed. Try to refrain from very acidic foods/drinks, so your overall pH is more alkaline. That will also help with the half life--which is your actual goal here.


Tagamet can help not only due to the CYP enzyme interference but also due to the pH raising. But from everything I have read--baking soda is best for pH prior to dosing

Interestingly, pH drops while you sleep. Which completely made me understand why I always woke up feeling icky. Even when I dose at 530 pm I could feel off waking at 7 am!! Now, then moving around and getting blood flow helped.


I wish you success. Don't get hung up on horror stories. I successfully tapered methadone before. As long as you do it slowly, you don't really feel drops. I had to stop for a bit around 20 mg to let my body readjust, and again around 4 mg. Most importantly, don't focus on it.

I wouldn't get into all the supposed potentiators as they really are supposed to make you feel your dose stronger. That's not what you need is you're tapering, as it'll be more to adjust to!

Google "methadone and pH", and do some reading. It's very informative. And anything else I can help with, let me know.
 
^Good for you for doing the research man. Methadone, like a lot of drugs is effected by body PH, but the point I've been trying to get across in this thread, is that by pursuing methods like antacids and herbs and such, you're not going to ever get anything better than about 10% potentiation. I don't have references for this specific statement. All of my experience with Methadone potentiators is based off of just that: personal experience.

TUMS brand tablets, Home-Made Baking Powder Antacids, Pepto-Bismol etc.; I've done them all, on multiple occasions. I never actually got any effect that I could fairly say was potentiation of my Methadone. Anything I might have felt could have been placebo. It's just not that effective.

Cimetidine (Tagamet): We know that there is a certain level of potentiation involved with Cimetidine through the influencing of certain enzyme activity, but I certainly couldn't tell one way or the other.

Fluvoxamine (Luvox) is the only thing that you will find that will actually cause a perceptible difference. I'm sorry to say it, but that's the truth.
 
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