Kratom Taking naltrexone after kratom and avoiding precipitated withdrawal

[Mycophile]

Ok, so this question might seem strange to some in terms of how I do things these days, but here's a brief description of what I do these days in order to avoid using drugs too often:

Basically, my 3 favorite drugs are Kratom, alcohol and Phenibut, and anyone who knows about naltrexone knows that this blocks all 3 of them from having any real pleasurable effect. While I used to binge quite frequently on these and some other drugs, these days I'm practically straight edge like 85% of the time, but the other 15% I like to get fucked up, so over a year ago I decided to get a prescription for 50mg Naltrexone so that I could forcibly induce temporary abstinence in myself, and it's worked very well.

Most days I take Naltrexone, but if I want to use any of these substances I just stop taking it for 3 days so its out of my system, and then I use what I want.

Now with alcohol and phenibut it doesn't matter if the next day you immediately go back on the naltrexone as it will not induce any kind of precipitated withdrawal, but as anyone who knows about this stuff knows, if you are in any way dependent on opioids, of which kratom is one, this will happen.

For this reason I tend to avoid kratom because I don't like to go on binges, just have a day or 2 where I do what I want and then hop right back on the naltrexone, but since that's not so easy with Kratom the only times I'll use it is if I really want to go off the naltrexone for like a week, and then I'll of course use kratom and drink multiple days in a row usually and I don't like that.

So basically the question is: how dependent on Kratom do you need to be to get precipitated withdrawals by taking Naltrexone the next day?

Like, I haven't used Kratom in over 10 months, so I'm obviously not addicted, so could I, for example, take 2-3 gram doses back to back in a day (6 total) and then wake up the next day and even take HALF of my naltrexone, just 25mg, in order to force myself to be sober again and block it, or is that already enough that I'm going to go into precipitated withdrawals?

I mean, 2 doses on a single day doesn't make one dependent right, so wouldn't I be ok?

Or what if we took it one day further and said that I did 2 doses of kratom, 2 days in a row, 12 grams over the course of 2 days: can I wake up and even take half a pill, 25mg of Naltrexone on that 3rd day to end my binging cycle, or would that do something horrible to me and make me feel like I was going through a living hell??

Even 2 days/4 doses wouldn't seem like it would be enough to cause dependence, but I just don't know how this works and if even the littlest bit of Kratom was in my system I'd start feeling horrible.

Note: I also take 2 mgs of Klonopin a day which I KNOW has helped me to not have extremely bad kratom wds in the past so I'd have that to help me.

Normally when I get Kratom WD it lasts 3 days approx., with days 2 and 3 being the worst and I just get very tired and a little depressed with a runny nose and sleep a lot.

And of course, since I know no one can tell me definitively that nothing bad will happen, based on my explanation that essentially at this exact moment (and most of the time) my body is completely opioid naive, if something bad WERE to happen and I felt like shit because after 1-2 days of Kratom use I even took HALF a naltrexone, what kind of symptoms could I expect to happen to me and would it be like, a situation where I'd need to or feel like I wanted to go to the hospital because it felt like I was going through a living hell??

I mean, could that really happen just taking 25mg of Naltrexone after 1-2 days or 2-4 doses of Kratom, or would I most likely just feel kind of shitty, like my usual WD symptoms compounded, which would probably mean I'd just feel really tired??


Cause if anything really bad would happen, as I've always assumed it would, then I either don't take Kratom when I go off my naltrexone if i just want 1 night of drinking or Phenibut, or I would do what I've done in the past when i really wanted to use kratom, which was go off the naltrexone, use kratom for however long, and then I go 5 days in a row without either kratom or naltrexone before going back on the naltrexone, because I know that Kratom really doesn't last in my system more than 5 days, and every time I have done that I've been fine.

Thanks.

 

[Xorkoth]

I don't think after one day of dosing that you'll be dependent again. I really just depends on whether you would be having withdrawals, I think. Personally, I get withdrawals very fast from kratom, but not after one day. However after 2 days in a row, even after a long break, I do get a little bit of withdrawals. That's just me though, I don't think that happens to most people.

That's an interesting tactic, make it impossible for you to get yourself high, to prevent you from getting high. Does 50mg of naltrexone have any negative effects for you? Seems like I read about people on it feeling anhedonia. Though I think that's generally reported by people who are forcibly on the injections and are probably struggling from their bodies readjusting to a lack of opioids, anyway.

 

[Mycophile]

I don't think after one day of dosing that you'll be dependent again. I really just depends on whether you would be having withdrawals, I think. Personally, I get withdrawals very fast from kratom, but not after one day. However after 2 days in a row, even after a long break, I do get a little bit of withdrawals. That's just me though, I don't think that happens to most people.

That's an interesting tactic, make it impossible for you to get yourself high, to prevent you from getting high. Does 50mg of naltrexone have any negative effects for you? Seems like I read about people on it feeling anhedonia. Though I think that's generally reported by people who are forcibly on the injections and are probably struggling from their bodies readjusting to a lack of opioids, anyway.

Ok, so one day would probably be good, but you aren't sure about 2 days, and knowing me, I'd most likely want to make it 2 days, but I believe I could stop after that.

And I mean, I'm well aware that no one can ever tell me everything would be fine, but still, if after 1-2 days, even 2 days with 4 doses like I said, I took just HALF a Naltrexone, at 25mgs, what kind of things do you think would happen?

Like, would it be like I could end up in the hospital from what it would do to me, or would I just feel like shit?

It couldn't be THAT bad after 2 days could it? I just need to know if the risk is something you'd personally take or what level of danger it would put me in, and again, remember that I take Klonopin for anxiety which I know makes my withdrawals much less severe.

Thank you for actually being the first to ever tell me that I have a good tactic!!

I mean, I don't tell most people this, and most people don't understand drugs like bluelighters do, but the one guy I did recently tell, who was an old friend who is no longer really a friend, someone I hadn't seen in years, but who most definitely was a heavy drinker and also uses kratom, definitely gave me quite the judgmental look when I told him about how I use Naltrexone, then looked up what it was on his phone, and then looked back at me LOL.

And then of course I don't tell my prescribing doctor how i really use it because that would be the worst thing one could EVER do...I just say "I use it in order to not drink" and that's the end of that.

But I figured that there are TONS of people like me, probably many on this forum, who would LOVE to be able to have a chemical on and off switch for certain drugs, and it works extremely well let me tell you. The two times I drank on it it was just a complete waste, and I even messed up and took Phenibut with it still in my system, thinking it had been long enough that I could get high, and man was I disappointed lol. Nothing but some tiredness.

No, I don't get any negative effects from it that I'm aware of.

When I was first considering trying it like 2 years ago I asked some people on here about the anhedonia thing and I know some people do get that effect, but thankfully I'm not one of them, and I already have some anxiety and depression but still, nope, no problem. I am able to enjoy everything else I'd normally enjoy, get those great endorphins going from really intense workouts, no problems with libido, and I'm pretty sure other drugs like weed would work too but I haven't smoked since I've started taking it.

Everyone who isn't open minded would just assume I must be like some kind of raging addict or alcoholic to have gone to the lengths to get naltrexone and take it but it's like, ask many of those same people to REALLY be honest about whether or not they don't sometimes regret drinking on certain nights or haven't had DOZENS of times that they've drank, taken a GABA drug, or some kind of opioid, where they really wish they hadn't, but just didn't have the self control that day, and most are lying if they say it hasn't happened before.

I just happened to go the extra step of finding a way to chemically induce temporary abstinence, and it only takes 3 days of not using it for it to clear the system and then I can use whatever I want and get just as high or drunk.

Yeah, initially the first doctor that prescribed it tried to convince me to take the vivitriol shots that last like 3 months and totally stop you from using anything but I was having none of it. My whole idea is that i can take this when i want to no longer need to use will power, and if I decide i want to use something that it happens to block, then 3 days and it's out of my system.

But I couldn't say whether or not the anhedonia is more or less common in those who have had the shots. I just know that I don't share the information that I use this stuff with most people as they just don't get it. Either they are in denial about their own addictions or are straight edge or naturally able to moderate (which is far fewer people I think than they'd have us believe LOL), and so they just won't understand.

The people who use it for the Sinclair method and ONLY drink on it and never take it when NOT drinking in order to create "extinction" so they'll no longer enjoy alcohol tell me I'm doing something horrible to my brain where I'll crave alcohol ten times worse by doing it my way, but I think they're full of it.

The Sinclair method i think can work based on pavlovian response where you so much associate drinking with not having pleasure because you are always on the Naltrexone that you no longer care for booze, but I DON'T want to stop liking alcohol, kratom or phenibut, so that's not my thing.

Anyways, if you do happen to know how bad the symptoms would be if I were to take 25mg-1/2 a naltrexone after like 2 days of 2 doses of kratom use, like whether or not it could put me in the hospital or make me at least wish I was dead lol, then please let me know.

Thanks.

 

[Xorkoth]

Thanks for the detailed response. Unfortunately, I have no idea how bad it would be, or even if it would be bad at all, as I have never tried naltrexone. I have had lots of experience with buprenorphine and kratom, and bupe does not cause PWD from kratom, but that's because bupe is a partial agonist like kratom is. Whereas naltrexone isn't an agonist at all. I wouldn't think it would happen after only 2 days, but I'm not sure.

 

[Mycophile]

Thanks. Well, I guess if anyone else has any guesses then chime in.

 

[Mycophile]

I know it's not likely anyone on here has a better guess the Xorkoth, but anyone else want to give a shot at this?

Again, the experiment I'm most considering is 2 days in a row of 2 doses per day (most likely in the 2-3 gram range) and then whenever I wake up on that 3rd day only taking 1/2 of my Naltrexone at 25mg as that would block me from continuing the cycle.

Of course if I could get away with 3 days of use I would, but I know I cant, and that's always where I cap it as I know more than 3 days of use in a row gives me bad withdrawals (well, as bad as Kratom can get which isn't all that bad IMO) but 3 is the point where I'll have some unpleasant ones but not that bad.

2 days in a row of usage won't usually leave me with all that much that is really noticeable, mostly a desire to just do it again a 3rd day, but I know I could cap it at 2 days if I could just take that little bit of Naltrexone the 3rd day, but I'm too afraid of precipitated withdrawals, so usually after ANY kratom use I wait a full 5 days to take Naltrexone again as kratom WD has never lasted more than 5 days for me and every time I get back on the Naltrexone at that point I'm good.

Anyone have a guess?

Anyone here ever take a Naltrexone right after a couple days of kratom or have any idea how bad that could possibly be?

 

[cdin]

i would not expect that to produce PwD. You need to have a habit set up where it's painful to not have the receptors occupied. unless your mu receptors are wildly fried,
a day or two of krat should not do that.

 

[JackARoe]

Wouldn't a precipitated withdrawal be in direct proportion to how sick one would be without the opiate or does it exceed that sickness? I mean, if naltraxone did cause precipitated withdrawal for kratom I think the only thing that would happen to me is some excessive sneezing, lethargy, and a little chill. I would be very surprised if it was more severe than that. But I would assume precipitated withdrawal from fentanyl would be a full on sickness. I could be wrong though.

 

[Mycophile]

i would not expect that to produce PwD. You need to have a habit set up where it's painful to not have the receptors occupied. unless your mu receptors are wildly fried,
a day or two of krat should not do that.

Thanks.

I'm really hoping this is true and I mean, I'd think that it what JackARoe said would be true too right? That what you could expect from precipitated withdrawal would be proportional to how bad the Kratom WD would have been, but the thing is is that what my doctor who first prescribed it told me is that whatever your WD symptoms would be and however long the'd last (for me, the worst symptoms of Kratom WD last 3 days, with the most possibly being a tiny bit of moodiness for an extra 2 days max) would all happen IMMEDIATELY and be concentrated into a very short period of time, like who knows how long, so I mean, if you had a bad Kratom habit it could potentially be bad.

But I also take Klonopin which i know makes my Kratom WD less severe, and the worst that happens to me is just that I get really tried and sleep a lot and also get kind of depressed with a runny nose. So probably if it happened to me I'd just immediately go to sleep and be out like a light for hours regardless of the time but I doubt it would be dangerous.

@cdin: Would you feel that it would be a risk you'd be willing to take, if you wanted to get back on Naltrexone quickly, to take 4 doses of Kratom (about 2-3 grams each) over the course of 2 days and then just take half a naltrexone at 25mgs (That's enough to break the cycle) on that 3rd day, probably like only like 12-16 hours after that last Kratom dose wore off??

Would the prospect of that sound like something dangerous at worst, or highly unpleasant at the best, or would you be unconcerned in doing that if it were you?

 

[cdin]

Thanks.

I'm really hoping this is true and I mean, I'd think that it what JackARoe said would be true too right? That what you could expect from precipitated withdrawal would be proportional to how bad the Kratom WD would have been, but the thing is is that what my doctor who first prescribed it told me is that whatever your WD symptoms would be and however long the'd last (for me, the worst symptoms of Kratom WD last 3 days, with the most possibly being a tiny bit of moodiness for an extra 2 days max) would all happen IMMEDIATELY and be concentrated into a very short period of time, like who knows how long, so I mean, if you had a bad Kratom habit it could potentially be bad.

But I also take Klonopin which i know makes my Kratom WD less severe, and the worst that happens to me is just that I get really tried and sleep a lot and also get kind of depressed with a runny nose. So probably if it happened to me I'd just immediately go to sleep and be out like a light for hours regardless of the time but I doubt it would be dangerous.

@cdin: Would you feel that it would be a risk you'd be willing to take, if you wanted to get back on Naltrexone quickly, to take 4 doses of Kratom (about 2-3 grams each) over the course of 2 days and then just take half a naltrexone at 25mgs (That's enough to break the cycle) on that 3rd day, probably like only like 12-16 hours after that last Kratom dose wore off??

Would the prospect of that sound like something dangerous at worst, or highly unpleasant at the best, or would you be unconcerned in doing that if it were you?

if it were me, i would just do what you would do for any induction on bupe etc -- wait 24 hours. I've had PwD before, it's NOT to be messed with and an awful experience. I would just wait out any possibility of it and go on my way. Surely you can make it 24h without dosing again without it?

 

[Mycophile]

if it were me, i would just do what you would do for any induction on bupe etc -- wait 24 hours. I've had PwD before, it's NOT to be messed with and an awful experience. I would just wait out any possibility of it and go on my way. Surely you can make it 24h without dosing again without it?

I'm pretty sure I can make myself wait 24 hours after my last Kratom dose and then take 1/2 a Naltrexone, as that would just be a bit later that same day (the 3rd day we're talking about if I took it 2 days in a row)...I mean, it might be at night.

Are you talking about 24 hours from when my last kratom dose wears off (it lasts about 4 hours for me) or 24 hours from when I took my last dose?

I mean, I am pretty sure I could keep myself from taking another dose, but that 3rd day it could still be tempting, and it makes me kind of anxious that I'd mess up and dose again the 3rd day.

It would probably be a REALLY bad idea to take the naltrexone after THREE days of Kratom use right?

That's enough that I would usually get WD, so I think that's not probably a great idea, but even then the WD is usually mild. Sometimes 2 days is enough for some very mild WD.

When you got precipitated withdrawal what kind of opioid were you taking, how long had you been taking it, did you take Naltrexone after, and if so, how long after your last dose?

In your last post you seemed not to be too concerned about the prospect of what i'm talking about, but here you are seeming to say you think it could still happen, so I'm just not sure. I mean, I know you can't be sure one way or another, but I'm still wondering if I'm taking too big a risk doing what I'm talking about.

You just said "I'd wait out ANY possibility of it", and 24 hours isn't ruling out "any possibility of it" since as mentioned, Kratom WD usually lasts 3 days for me, and at the absolute longest some extremely mild symptoms on a 5th day (but rarely worth noting after day 3), but that's usually when I've been dosing twice a day for at least 3 days in a row or more. In fact, day 1 is usually the mildest day, with days 2-3 being the worst.

I've always waited a full 5 days to take Naltrexone again to rule out "any possibility of it", but that's the problem, because within that much time I'd probably take Kratom again, and also drink again which I'm trying to avoid overdoing.

It's all about getting back on the naltrexone as soon as is safely possible because I try to be the kind of guy who no longer goes on Kratom and/or drinking binges and just has fun for a couple days, and the longer I'm off it the more likely the chances get.

 

[cdin]

When you induct on bupe the directive is to wait 24 hours until full blown withdrawal and then take a dose to avoid pwd. I was on dope equivalent to 600+mg of morphine a day when this happened to me. —- I’m not as concerned with you because even if habituated the amount and duration is so short I think you are overthinking it a tad. All I was saying was if you want to be certain not to experience anything weird, wait 24 hours from the last dose of Kratom , then get back on the NALT.

 

[Mycophile]

When you induct on bupe the directive is to wait 24 hours until full blown withdrawal and then take a dose to avoid pwd. I was on dope equivalent to 600+mg of morphine a day when this happened to me. —- I’m not as concerned with you because even if habituated the amount and duration is so short I think you are overthinking it a tad. All I was saying was if you want to be certain not to experience anything weird, wait 24 hours from the last dose of Kratom , then get back on the NALT.

Yeah I mean I also think I'm overthinking it, but to be honest, I don't think the difference of like 8 hours is going to matter.

I tend to go sleep at like 2AM and wake up at noon, so those 2 days of dosing would probably be 2 doses between noon and 8PM, so if I want to get off the Kratom train and back on the naltrexone ASAP then I'd wake up and take the Naltrexone at noon, and I'm really just not convinced that if it's NOT safe at noon then it's just fine to take the Naltrexone 8 hours later that same night at 8:00 because it's been 24 hours rather than 16.

If I was to think it was dangerous to take it at noon that next day then I think it's not only dangerous to take it at ANY point that next day but also probably the following day as well. I just don't see HOURS making the difference, but rather, days, and by that point I would already have started taking Kratom again and also probably drinking which will make me want to take more Kratom for the hangover.

So yeah, I mean, I hear what you are describing, but I'm just not convinced 8 hours makes any difference whatsoever in my situation.

Even though we are talking about what really amounts to probably quite negligible amounts of Kratom left in my system, if somehow it's NOT ok to take it like 16 hours after my last dose, then to me that means there's too much left in my system to take the Naltrexone safely that day at all, and probably not the next either.

I think this is going to be either it's ok for me to just wake up and take Naltrexone again at whatever time that 3rd day (and again I'm talking HALF a dose at 25mg to be safer) or else I feel I'd have to wait like at least 3 days, and sometimes 5 cause that's the longest Kratom WD has ever lasted for me.

There are certain times when less is going on in my life that I'm willing to risk falling off the wagon for longer and just knowing that I won't be on the Naltrexone and may mess up and dose Kratom or drink for any number of days before I can finally get the will power to resist the Kratom 3-5 days to get back onto the Naltrexone and if I mess myself up a little, it's no biggie, but this probably wouldn't be one of them.

Either I'm deciding that I'm fine to just wake up that 3rd day and take Naltrexone immediately, or I'm thinking that this ends up being a binge that lasts 3 days or longer where I need to be off my naltrexone like 5 days after my last dose (or AT LEAST 3) before it's safe to get back on.

That's kind of how I'm thinking here, so I've got to make that decision based off the info you guys give me cause I have no one else to ask.

I SERIOUSLY don't think 8 hours makes a difference, and that's a period of time I might slip up and redose Kratom. If there's enough Kratom left in my system at noon the 3rd day to cause precipitated WD then I still think there will be at 8PM later that evening...

So, even though most of you think it seems like it's not a big deal, I'm still having a hard time deciding.

It might be one of those things where I simply have to decide if it's worth the risk and find out the hard way, but I'm not going to do that if the chance of any kind of precipitated WD is serious. Instead, if I thought it was, as I have in the past, I'd be waiting like 3 days at least after the last dose, and therein lies the entire problem of the situation, because by then I've taken more Kratom...

 

[cdin]

no. frankly i doubt it would happen even if you did it sooner. I think the kratom is at a low enough dose and not set up a a physical habit. I just wanted to give you a time line that FOR SURE won't produce any problems. you could probably just eat the nalt 4 hours after the krat and be fine as it isn't a long term entrenched thing, i was just throwing out the recommended protocol for 100% surety of not experiencing any pwd

 

[Mycophile]

no. frankly i doubt it would happen even if you did it sooner. I think the kratom is at a low enough dose and not set up a a physical habit. I just wanted to give you a time line that FOR SURE won't produce any problems. you could probably just eat the nalt 4 hours after the krat and be fine as it isn't a long term entrenched thing, i was just throwing out the recommended protocol for 100% surety of not experiencing any pwd

Thanks.

However, wouldn't you probably think THREE days in a row of dosing Kratom would be too much to take Naltrexone the next day?

For that I think I would as that amount usually gives me withdrawal, but I'm thinking afterwards if i did it for that long that another 3 full days would be enough as I've never had BAD withdrawals (as bad as they can get from Kratom at least) lasting longer than 3 days. I've had super mild ones for days 4 and 5, but I bet a half of a pill of Naltrexone on day 4 would be fine.

 

[cdin]

if you were eating like 50g a day maybe. but sub 10 if you were sober months before that i still wouldnt worry too too much

 

[benstaplemaple]

@Mycophile if you don't mind me asking, where did you ever land on this? Few weeks ago I was prescribed naltrexone to try to cut down on binge drinking. I immediately went into soul crushing kratom precipitated withdrawal, a most unwelcome surprise to be sure! Anyways, I'm thinking along the same lines as you and found your post. I took 3g of kratom today for first time in 2 weeks. I've been able to use naltrexone successfully during that time and curious if I take the nal tomorrow, what will happen? The precipitated withdrawal is not an experience I'm trying to repeat in this lifetime but I also really like kratom (don't really abuse it but now I know not to take it daily) and still want to cut down on binge drinking. Thanks!

 

[Mycophile]

@Mycophile if you don't mind me asking, where did you ever land on this? Few weeks ago I was prescribed naltrexone to try to cut down on binge drinking. I immediately went into soul crushing kratom precipitated withdrawal, a most unwelcome surprise to be sure! Anyways, I'm thinking along the same lines as you and found your post. I took 3g of kratom today for first time in 2 weeks. I've been able to use naltrexone successfully during that time and curious if I take the nal tomorrow, what will happen? The precipitated withdrawal is not an experience I'm trying to repeat in this lifetime but I also really like kratom (don't really abuse it but now I know not to take it daily) and still want to cut down on binge drinking. Thanks!

Hi. Sorry for your experience.

So basically, you need ALL opioids of any kind including Kratom COMPLETELY out of your system to take Naltrexone and not get precipitated WD, or at the very least you need to not be dependent on them.

So if you are dependent on Kratom, which it sounds like you are, well, I'm not sure that anyone know the EXACT amount of time Kratom stays in the body, but FOR ME, every time I stopped I only ever had bad WD for 3 days and the longest I ever felt even the most MINIMAL WD was 5 days, so my rule for myself is that if I go off my Naltrexone and take and become dependent on Kratom then I make myself go COMPLETELY without Kratom for a full 5 days before taking naltrexone again.

However, I think it's possible I might be ok going back on after 3 full days off Kratom, but yeah, basically, you just have to know that your kratom WD is completely over before you take Naltrexone or you could get precipitated WD.

 

[benstaplemaple]

So basically, you need ALL opioids of any kind including Kratom COMPLETELY out of your system to take Naltrexone and not get precipitated WD, or at the very least you need to not be dependent on them.

So if you are dependent on Kratom, which it sounds like you are, well

So I was, but I'm actually not dependent on it since that precipitated withdrawal, well at least I don't think so as I've only taken it once since then. But like in your case you were planning on 1 day on kratom then the naltrexone right? Did you ever try that?

 

[Mycophile]

I'm not sure if I've just done one day where I just took one dose of Kratom and then naltrexone the next day but I wouldn't see that as probably being a problem since you wouldn't be dependent.