Tackling depression with ketamine

[endotropic]

For some of us, that are fortunate enough to be considered 'treatment resistant', we've tried every drug there is to try. We've been on all these meds and come off all of these meds, been through fucked up withdrawals, tried everything there is to try. Who really knows what's happening with our brain chemistry anymore? When there is a truly deep rooted sadness, that fucks you up for a long time, tried all the treatments there are to try and totally whacked out your nervous system; you can easily end up more fucked than when you started and it can take a long time to recover. Eventually, you're going to have doubts about any treatment. I'm willing to bet a few shots of ketamine isn't going to help whatever the fuck I have anymore and I doubt that I am alone on that. Maybe we should reconsider how we approach this problem.

I honestly hope this is a sustainable solution for people. I'm sure it is probably better than traditional treatments and I have nothing against the drug itself. I just hope the new treatments that come out actually help people and don't just line pockets and take advantage of a vulnerable population. I won't be signing up though, thanks. I've tried enough of this shit...

All of the early studies trialing ketamine for depression exclusively tested treatment resistant individuals. It worked for most of them anyways, which I thought was amazing.

 

[Jabberwocky]

^Dito

jammin ~ At least one trial I read of used low dose IM ket shots, but I forget the exact dose(s). If one used ketamine one's self for this sort of thing, I wouldn't really expect the same kind of results. At the same time, when done carefully and with enough know how, it isn't not entirely unreasonable to expect it to help either. Do some research and read up on some of the trials and modalities that have been developed if you're going to try it yourself. And remember that this isn't using recreational shots, although some certainly would benefit from that larger amount. The idea is to keep it low enough so there aren't any side effects, or at least they're as minimal as possible. If one gets fucked up, well, safe to assume the ideal dose was overshot.

If you don't like ketamine, however, probably a bad idea to try this one's self unless one really dose know what they're doing.

I know I benefited from trying this myself, although it was totally unintentional at the time (I didn't know about these trials when I realized how much it helped me the first time I did it). Just be very careful.

 

[Lazaraus45]

Hope this thread wopuld be about Ket, in the past i've tried to off myself in so many ways, as you can imagine an anaesthetic would make it so much easier for you to slice your wrists, or so you'd think but every time in my life where I took ketamine to aid my suicide i've been unable to do anything, it's far too introspective to even consider self harm on, pick up knife filled with despair, take ket to ease the pain and from there I just couldn't dream of doing myself harm, and the efeects lasted a few days too

 

[ro4eva]

Hope this thread wopuld be about Ket, in the past i've tried to off myself in so many ways, as you can imagine an anaesthetic would make it so much easier for you to slice your wrists, or so you'd think but every time in my life where I took ketamine to aid my suicide i've been unable to do anything, it's far too introspective to even consider self harm on, pick up knife filled with despair, take ket to ease the pain and from there I just couldn't dream of doing myself harm, and the efeects lasted a few days too

Since we don't know each other, this may not mean much, but I'm truly sorry to read that (it sounds like) you're not doing too well, and I sincerely hope that things get better.

 

[dopamimetic]

Ketamine shows 'game-changing' effect on suicide prevention

(Edit:

PLEASE read my theory I've posted here if you're interested in this subject. This stuff is so fucking amazing and could lead to a real breakthrough for some very seriously suffering people.

)

According to researchers in Australia, the anesthetic and recreational drug ketamine could be effective in preventing suicide and lifting mood in people who are severely depressed in a way they describe as "game-changing." They report the results of the pilot trial in The World Journal of Biological Psychiatry.

The results show that the drug known on the streets as 'special K,' was effective - at least temporarily - for most trial participants, who were all patients with major depressive disorder and who had exhausted all other treatments.

Lead author Colleen Loo is a professor at the University of New South Wales in Sydney, where she specializes in psychiatry and neurosciences. She describes the finding as a "game-changer in treating depression," and says:

"The real advantage here is that the effect is almost instantaneous and that it appears to work on the majority of patients."

Current drugs for depression can take up to 8 weeks to reach full effect. Also, it is not easy to match the right drug to the right patient, which has to be done by trial and error.

"This could be of real benefit if a patient is suicidal, as it could help yank them out of that really dark place," says Prof. Loo, who also explains how ketamine works:

"Ketamine powerfully reverses structural changes in the brain that occur when someone is depressed. In a sense, the treatment is repairing or reversing those changes."
The purpose of the pilot trial was to determine an appropriate dose rate for the drug. Previous studies have already established that ketamine potentially has impressive antidepressant effects, but nobody had yet determined how best to administer it or find the relationships between dose, antidepressant response and adverse effects.

Three out of four (therapy-resistant!) patients responded after single session.

I know it's not new but very remarkable. And I truly believe it'd be an enormous advance to have suicidally depressed people instantly relieved, even if it's just temporarily, instead of sedating them to hell with neuroleptics. It works, like nothing else (ok, besides MXE which is actually superior and somewhat unites the effects of K and a powerful serotonergic, but that one has unfortunately been prohibited worldwide.. and DXM, based on which I theorized that it could be a 'game-changer' for suicidal people... back in 2005, when nobody talked of K and depression..! Really, not joking.) and it's reliable, from own experience. Source.

 

[Jabberwocky]

This research will never cease to amaze me. Now if only ketamine treatment was covered by my insurance or cheaper...

 

[SixBuckets]

I wonder if it works for bipolar or just unipolar depression?

 

[mister]

Does MXE have the same effect?

 

[dopamimetic]

Does MXE have the same effect?

Yes, by personal experience & this even has made it into a publication ... actually I think that MXE is superior, because it is a) longer lasting and b) additionally serotonergic and less dopaminergic, which makes it a more mellow and pro-emotional experience. I'd say that MXE itself could even be used not only for acute relief, but also as a maintenance treatment over the course of a few weeks - with one 'moderate' dose initially (20-30mg?) and then as time-released capsules with maybe 10mg/d. Would be more suitable for inpatients because of the potential psychedelic 'side' effects, but think this isn't much different with K ... they'd have to brief the patients a bit before and do it in a comfortable setting, but then I really don't see any real reason for not using it. The chances to get a 'bad trip' in low doses are really small in the right setting (small group or 1:1 counseling) and with the 5-HT action of MXE.

Also there is no need to do it intravenously or by infusion at all, I don't know why they tend to go this way with ketamine treatments.. maybe just cause it is used by injection for anesthesia. The oral route has only advantages. It is less invasive and the onset is much more gradually, also it wears off more smoothly.

If ever someone would get anxious / psychotic, then they could administer either a benzodiazepine and/or an AMPAkine (they seem to cancel out dissociatives, and there's the possibility that part of the antidepressant effect would even continue to work without the trippy effects).
Would be a fucking true revolution for psychiatric care. And it could be made possible today.

Given the number of people who have recreationally used MXE, I'd be comfortable to say it is not less safe than any other 'serious' pharmaceutical interventions if used as proposed above. I am really really against handing drugs to any people who are not truly educated about the matter and haven't opened the pandora's box by themselves, but this MXE for seriously depressed / suicidal people would be something that could really and literally save lives or at least indescribable mental pain.

 

[mister]

Thanks, dopamimetic. I have some MXE so might give a low dose a go and see if I can feel any therapeutic benefits.

 

[dopamimetic]

push (sorry)

 

[PerfectDisguise]

I'd love to see ketamine become a mainstream treatment option. I've never tried it, but I've only read good things about it. I think that other psychedelics could be used in the treatment of mental illness; of course in a micro-dosing type way. Very interested to see what happens with ketamine/other psychedelics as far as legality goes in the coming years.

 

[SmokingAces]

MXE is a potent anti depressant for sure but the old ket you used to get years ago was a much stronger anti depressant effect. That said I've long since given up trying to find it did have some good stuff a while ago but only did half a gram in a day but just didn't have the same enthusiasm I used to, to do more. Dissociative drugs can certainly help depression though, this has been talked about for years now. I don't know why it's not being implemented more.

I also think MDMA could help people with anxiety problems to open up about problems they usually struggle to discuss. I know someone who was abused when they were younger, and this was only brought to light under the influence of ecstasy. Which helped others us understand certain aspects of why the person in question behaved the way they did, in certain instances.

 

[dopamimetic]

Even more so amazing stuff .. (other thread here on BL)

Dissociative drugs can certainly help depression though, this has been talked about for years now. I don't know why it's not being implemented more.

I think because it only affects a sub group which is too small to be statistically significant (but they do suffer even more seriously though). So we fall through the raster of Big Pharma. But it gives me true hope that there is actually that much research done ...

 

[SmokingAces]

I should rephrase that. I think it's bad it's not being implemented. The reason is simple big pharma is making too much money from so many various other medications that don't work.

 

[poledriver]

Ketamine to treat depression in patients resistant to other drugs, biggest mental hea

KETAMINE TO TREAT DEPRESSION IN PATIENTS RESISTANT TO OTHER DRUGS, BIGGEST MENTAL HEALTH BREAKTHROUGH IN 50 YEARS

Ketamine, known as Special K in the party culture, is being used to combat severe depression and suicidal thoughts in patients who do not respond to traditional therapy.

Ketamine has been around since the 1960s and is a powerful sedative that essentially leaves the user unresponsive and physically detached from the senses. It is most often used in emergency rooms and on children with a broken or dislocated bone.

The drug is also popular in veterinary medicine and burn centers.

Over the past several years, ketamine effectiveness has been studied in patients suffering from severe depression who are resistant to traditional depression management. So far, research has shown that the drug produces a quick and strong antidepressant effect while ending suicidal thoughts in the patient.

Conventional antidepressants and mood stabilizers typically take weeks or even months before the effects are noticed. According to a study published in 2010, many generally accepted antidepressants are no more effective than placebos.

Several medical centers, including Yale University, the University of California at San Diego, the Mayo Clinic, Kaiser Permanente, and the Cleveland Clinic, have all begun ketamine treatment for depression. The American Psychiatric Association is currently on track to approve the drug as a practical antidepressant therapy.

Many health experts consider ketamine the most significant advancement in mental health within the last 50 years. The drug is gaining momentum since it seems to be working for many patients, while other antidepressants, mood stabilizers, and various therapies have not.

“This is the next big thing in psychiatry,” said San Francisco psychiatrist L. Alison McInnes. After using ketamine treatment on 58 severely depressed patients in Kaiser’s San Francisco clinic, she found a 60 percent success rate. Her results were significant enough to persuade Kaiser to allow the treatment in two other area clinics.

Other than ketamine, some depression patients do not have any real alternative options.

“There is a significant number of people who don’t respond to antidepressants, and we’ve had nothing to offer them other than cognitive behavior therapy, electroshock therapy and transcranial stimulation,” noted McInnes.

Dennis Hartman, a Seattle business executive, was seriously considering suicide in 2012. However, he had the opportunity to participate in a ketamine clinical trial at the National Institute of Mental Health in Bethesda, Maryland.

During the test, he sat in a hospital room for 40 minutes while an IV drip delivered a small amount of ketamine into his system. Within hours of the treatment, he noticed that all the thoughts of suicide had left him.

“My life will always be divided into the time before that first infusion and the time after,” Hartman said. “That sense of suffering and pain draining away. I was bewildered by the absence of pain.”

The study found that the dosage needed to make a difference is very small, about 10 percent of the amount used in anesthesia. Not only that, the effects are observed within minutes or hours.

Enrique Abreu, a Portland, Oregon, anesthesiologist, began treating depressed patients with ketamine in 2012.

“It’s not subtle. It’s really obvious if it’s going to be effective. And the response rate is unbelievable. This drug is 75 percent effective, which means that three-quarters of my patients do well. Nothing in medicine has those kind of numbers.”
While the clinical trials have shown much success, there is one major drawback to the treatment. The depression relief is only temporary. Many patients experienced a relapse of depression symptoms about a week after an infusion.

Additionally, patients getting the low-dose infusion have described some mind-altering side effects like intense hallucinations, a feeling of being separated from their bodies, and losing track of time. Interestingly, some enjoy the side effects, while many do not.

Despite the side effects, low-dose infusion of ketamine for depression treatment looks to be promising. The drug is also being studied for treating obsessive-compulsive disorder, post-traumatic disorder, extreme anxiety, and Rett syndrome.

http://www.inquisitr.com/2770372/ke...ggest-mental-health-breakthrough-in-50-years/

 

[yepyepwoah]

Well no shit it works.

This is just assholes trying to make $$$$ off of us.

A guy on reddit posted about his treatment. $400 to sit in an office and get ~100mg ketamine slow drip IV'ed.

Thanks modern medicine for alloeing me to pay $4,000 for a gram of ketamine. Yeah, no thanks fuckkkkkkkkk you

 

['medicine cabinet']

I see some kind of ketamine analog becoming an rx that won't work as well as the real deal...didn't they do that with another substance? It's green and leafy?? Ha

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

I feel mixed on this. On the one hand, I think it's great that this industry is expanding, and patients are benefiting from it. On the other hand, I'm skeptical of insurance companies in the US being willing to pony up for regular ketamine infusions for depression anytime soon. (Ketamine is vile in the US healthcare industry's lore.) So until then, these waters will stay kind of sharky, and patients will get fleeced, the way pill mills do to people.

I imagine from a risk management perspective, running an above-board ketamine clinic for depressed people in the US might involve some expensive ass covering. I'm sure having at least one nurse anesthetist, if not an anesthesiologist, on hand at all times would be necessary to keep eyebrows from being raised. As would the equipment for continuous vital sign monitoring. A contingency plan would have to be made not only for bad physical reactions to the drug, but for people who found the psychotropic effects terrifying. I've used a lot of K, and while I'd describe it as profound, I'd hesitate to call it fun. You might have to have a mental health professional (or two) on staff as well, to guide the drug experience or help people during and after difficulty trips. Then there's the issue of transport. Any K clinic who let a patient drive (or leave on their own period) after an infusion, no matter how long they waited, is a medicolegal nightmare waiting to happen. As a doctor doing this, I'd want pretty close follow up for anyone who got an infusion, documenting proper recovery, good toleration of the drug's longer-term physical and mental effects, and efficacy. At one follow up visit per infusion, that doubles office traffic right there, and all the manpower that requires.

The industry's got a way to go before it becomes an accessible and affordable, routine part of treatment for severe depression. And at this point, I'm as cynical as I've always been about the US healthcare industry's attitude toward ketamine. It's too much of a wildcard, and too much of an upsetter of too many status quos.

 

[slimvictor]

^ nice post, MDAO.
I agreed with the earlier posters (and still do), but seeing your perspective really helped me think about the issue more clearly.