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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

suboxone or subutex?

S

Stoner_420

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 8, 2015
Messages
164
hey you guys its been a while since uve posted. ive been on suboxone for 7 months now 8 mg 3 times a day (24 mg). which I only need 8-12 mg at the most daily. I was wondering yalls opinions on which is better subutex or suboxone? I could get subutex cheaper due to the fact they have generics, if my doctor would change it. Does naloxone block the cravings or just block other full agonist opiates? Your input is greatly appreciated, either eay buprenorphine has saved my life.
 
Stoner_420 said:
hey you guys its been a while since uve posted. ive been on suboxone for 7 months now 8 mg 3 times a day (24 mg). which I only need 8-12 mg at the most daily. I was wondering yalls opinions on which is better subutex or suboxone? I could get subutex cheaper due to the fact they have generics, if my doctor would change it. Does naloxone block the cravings or just block other full agonist opiates? Your input is greatly appreciated, either eay buprenorphine has saved my life.
Click to expand...

The naloxone has basically no effect, so it doesnt matter. If you can get subutex, get it. Just because it's cheaper.

1) Naloxone isnt absorbed sublingually, so it has no effect
2) even if it was absorbed, bupe has a higher affinity for the receptors, so it still wouldn't have an effect

Its the bupe that blocks other opiates and causes precipitated withdrawals. Its all the bupe.
 
^ They have generic Suboxone tablets, though doctors seem to be hesitant to write them, whether this is ignorance, misguided attempts, to uh, do something, or, possibly financial, not sure

In any case, generic subixone tablets are rare, and still expensive; Subutex is more reasonable, though most doctors don't understand that there is no practical pharmacological difference, and act as if you just asked for buprenex; may as well have syringe or straw in hand

Seriously though, they are exactly the same sublingual,(*) although tablets, specifically Subutex are cheaper w/out insurance
 
not sure about US prices but I had a generic called 'mylan buprenorphine naloxone.' 5mg a day... And I guess I can't give specifics but it was CHEAP. About what I would spend on heroin in one day I could get a months supply of bupe. One time they ran out of the generic and they had to give me brand name suboxone. EW! It tasted like Mr Clean. I was relieved when I got back my sweet lemon flavoured generic tablets. MMM
 
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We do not have 0.5mg tablets w/nalaxone here- although they did make 200mcg(0.2mg) tablets of pure buprenorphine for pain, long before they began pushing overly high doses of Suboxone/Subutex on people

(2 and 8mg tablets are fine, and think the 12mg strip is a great idea if used properly; they even have 4mg strips; maybe 1mg? Subutex and generics though are 2mg and 8mg only-they also buprenex, 300mcg per ml IV/IM solution for injection, for pain, though it is apparently rare)
 
Doctors generally get antsy if you ask for tex instead of xone.....many, if not most, will not write it. All addicts are the same, and any one of them that asks for the cheaper option is simply trying to get it so they can iv.....that's the mentality.

Honestly though, I actually probably would recommend most addicts that are actually seriously trying to get their life and shit straight use xone over tex....unlike xone (due to the naloxone- which IS active via other ROA's such as iv, which will block your opioid receptors and send you straight into hellish withdrawals), tex can be iv'd and more easily abused.....which is an obvious temptation to anyone liking of opioids....no matter how serious you may be about staying straight, life tends to throw shit at you at least once in awhile that may send you into a state of not giving a shit and making regrettable decisions.....speaking from experience....
If you can afford it, stick with the suboxone. My personal opinion. Stay strong dude and keep up the good work!

-PA
 
^WRONG^

Buprenorphine has an extremely high binding affinity for opioid receptors, effectively it outcompetes nalaxone, binding to Mu and Kappa receptors, wrongly and with an unusual receptor binging disassociation, while nalaxone does nothing to most people

Suboxone is/was a blockbuster drug; to delay generics they come out with "superior" strips, and then comes Zubsolve, with better BA%, otherwise exactly l the same, and now a a fucking buccal formulation that would fine, though it cost a fortune

Subutex or generic suboxone should be available to anyone who needs it and simply cannot fund Years of evergreening

ah
 
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^^^ I completely agree with you. But I've found it nearly impossible to convince anyone who doesn't actually fully understand the reasoning like you or I that this is the case.

Most of the doctors don't know themselves, and most people trust what the doctors say over anyone else no matter what the argument. So trying to convince anyone of this I've found is a waste of time.

Normal people follow the rules of society, and society has made it clear that nobody has any ability to make any claim of any sort pertaining to any subject for which the universities and colleges have a monopoly in deciding who gets to have an opinion. The strength of the argument or the evidence are both meaningless. If you haven't been deemed qualified by the system, no argument or evidence counts for anything.
 
Yep

Once in awhile, someone makes statement though

You shouldn't have to be automatically "qualified"- What's sad is going to a university for years and still don't know what your doing
 
Lorne is right. Naloxone is just a scare tactic ( or something else completely pointless)

And I wasnt getting .5mg a day, it was a full 5mg a day. The period was just ending the previous sentence... though that should have been in the parenthesis so my bad.
 
Guys, the process to become "licensed" as an addiction-specialist, able to prescribe Buprenorphine is typically a fly-by-night, long-weekend style course in which they watch a movie or two and then are given a certificate with their name on it. These guys are not experts and if you don't believe that the producers of Buprenorphine products are not eager to get people licensed, you have a boldly-naive view of the nature of human greed. We are a "stock" on the stock ticker. The more people do dope, the higher the price of the "stock". You could say "the market" (Opioid addicts) is doing quite well presently.

I live in Vermont currently, but I'm from Lowell, MA originally. By the time they get their dope up here (I don't do dope anymore), it's of poor quality or entirely Fentanyl, albeit stepped on Fentanyl. My point is, most of these guys don't share the experience of my hometown in which we buy Brown Powder Heroin buy the gram. They are using weak dope and you better believe all these cats are on 24mg Buprenorphine. My friends and I have never, if my memory serves me, required more than 8mg to feel completely well. You're telling me that these guys need 24mg Buprenorphine a day using this "Heroin-Lite"?

It's pretty disgusting. To them, it's all about how many strips go out the door. I would venture to say that 90% of Buprenorphine patients are utterly over-medicated in relation to their habit. Buprenorphine can be bought in Burlington as easy as buying a burger. Strips everywhere. You cannot get rid of them. It doesn't matter to the Pharma-Fascists. Their job is done once the strip leaves the pharmacy and the money is in the bank.

The "noble warriors, combating the Opioid epidemic". They're making marks out of everyone. We are paying for these name brand strips with our tax money that these guys are in turn selling for drugs.
 
Its true! Keep in mind the dope in my area is very strong. Very. Strong. Its all cerfent and w18. A point would kill a naive user 3 times over. One hoot used to fuck me up so bad I had to stay in the bathroom at work to come down for 20 min. At this point I had to smoke a gram of real heroin for an effect.

ANYWAY, I had to talk my dr into a lower sub dose. He wanted to give me 8mg or more, we ended up agreeing on 6. He told me that was a very low dose and that most of his clients are on 16 - 32mgs. WTF. 20 year heroin addicts can switch to 2mg but theres people on 32mgs??? I was floored and realized I knew more about this drug than my dr. and obviously patients lie to get more because they think it will make them feel better. I dont see why anybody with half a brain wouldnt just do a google search and find out on their own that more will acually make you feel less high. Idiots.
 
Keif' Richards said:
Guys, the process to become "licensed" as an addiction-specialist, able to prescribe Buprenorphine is typically a fly-by-night, long-weekend style course in which they watch a movie or two and then are given a certificate with their name on it. These guys are not experts and if you don't believe that the producers of Buprenorphine products are not eager to get people licensed, you have a boldly-naive view of the nature of human greed. We are a "stock" on the stock ticker. The more people do dope, the higher the price of the "stock". You could say "the market" (Opioid addicts) is doing quite well presently.

I live in Vermont currently, but I'm from Lowell, MA originally. By the time they get their dope up here (I don't do dope anymore), it's of poor quality or entirely Fentanyl, albeit stepped on Fentanyl. My point is, most of these guys don't share the experience of my hometown in which we buy Brown Powder Heroin buy the gram. They are using weak dope and you better believe all these cats are on 24mg Buprenorphine. My friends and I have never, if my memory serves me, required more than 8mg to feel completely well. You're telling me that these guys need 24mg Buprenorphine a day using this "Heroin-Lite"?

It's pretty disgusting. To them, it's all about how many strips go out the door. I would venture to say that 90% of Buprenorphine patients are utterly over-medicated in relation to their habit. Buprenorphine can be bought in Burlington as easy as buying a burger. Strips everywhere. You cannot get rid of them. It doesn't matter to the Pharma-Fascists. Their job is done once the strip leaves the pharmacy and the money is in the bank.

The "noble warriors, combating the Opioid epidemic". They're making marks out of everyone. We are paying for these name brand strips with our tax money that these guys are in turn selling for drugs.
Click to expand...

Absolutely-almost everyone on suboxone gets 2 or 3 strips per day, 8-12mg-bid or 8ng tid seeming most common.

They claim the ?glass ceiling? is 32mg, so certainly someone is getting 4 strips per day

Oh, the stories man, it is similar with methadone-they want the dose as high as possible, even if snorting a Roxie 30 returned the color to your face, they will happily give you 100mg; of course the motivation is a bit different, I think

With Bupe/Naloxone combo products(Suboxone, Zubsolve, and now the buccal Bunavail, to name some in US) it is plain greed; the ?certification? to treat(more than 10 patients?) is a joke, as Keif said, he basically confirmed what had thought- these people know nothing of the powerful, yet partial agonist they are prescribing

And Bunavail is supposed to have 90% BA, and the equivalent dosage is supposed to be like 55% of Suboxone, as it is supposed to be nearly three times as strong

Yet someone know personally may soon be getting the high dose tid, which would de equivalent to, 35mg sublingual buprenorphine supposedly! (Would venture it is more like 1.5x as potent, maybe double the potency for some people, nearly equal for others, as SL absorption varies a lot)

? The market is doing well?

It certainly is-well spoken
 
The one and only time I saw a doc about subs, and within 5 mins, he had prescribed me 60 8/2mg strips, with the expectation of that lasting 30 days, unless I had to "take extra in the beginning" lol. He even threw me a 20% off coupon for the script, which he had a drawer full of, btw.
 
yeah 24 mg a day is insane, but thats what i get. i was on a 100 mg opana a day (snorted) and 8 mg a day of bupe is enough. but anyway, my doctor says that their about to pass a law in my state where only pregnant women can get subutex. thanks for all the replies guys. yall are the best
 
also asking my doctor about a taper plan in the near future and his response blew my mind. he said we would drop from 24 mg at 4 mg every month, untill i got to 4 mg then jump off of 4mg. thats freaking way to high to jump from. it goes to show their little 8 hour video dont teach them hardly squat, its all about the $$$. if you relapse they put you on probation and charge you a extra 160$$$
 
I want to see a "scam report" on my local news, with cameras in the faces of these doctors. "Sir, are you aware that you are in fact making these patients' dependencies on Opioid agonists worse than before they saw you? How do you expect these patients to withdraw from an even higher dosage of Opioid if they didn't have success previously? How, as a physician, could you ever think that this is okay?"

It doesn't matter. The addict will always be cattle. The news media will dress us in nice clothing and bathe us in essential oils, but we will always just be sweet-smelling, pretty-looking cattle. If a bunch of addicts come up with this absolute, obvious truth, what excuse could these "men of science" possible not make this connection? It is their motherfucking livelihood. Have they never taken a second to consider their life's work and the impact that it might have?

These guys are creating heavily, heavily dependent users of Buprenorphine. These users do not need this amount of Buprenorphine. I think we need to do something about this. I am literally fuming like an angry wild board right now.
 
They aren't men of science. If they were it would be as obvious to them as it is to us. They're just like regular people. Dumb. Only they have a medical degree and society has always told you that makes it different. It doesn't.
 
Keif' Richards said:
I want to see a "scam report" on my local news, with cameras in the faces of these doctors. "Sir, are you aware that you are in fact making these patients' dependencies on Opioid agonists worse than before they saw you? How do you expect these patients to withdraw from an even higher dosage of Opioid if they didn't have success previously? How, as a physician, could you ever think that this is okay?"

It doesn't matter. The addict will always be cattle. The news media will dress us in nice clothing and bathe us in essential oils, but we will always just be sweet-smelling, pretty-looking cattle. If a bunch of addicts come up with this absolute, obvious truth, what excuse could these "men of science" possible not make this connection? It is their motherfucking livelihood. Have they never taken a second to consider their life's work and the impact that it might have?

These guys are creating heavily, heavily dependent users of Buprenorphine. These users do not need this amount of Buprenorphine. I think we need to do something about this. I am literally fuming like an angry wild board right now.
Click to expand...

Being a doctor, in many cases simply means you had the money/connection for schooling

And those that deal with addiction seem to be the lowest class, not to be judgemental, though relative to a truly dedicated physician they are no better than the ?junkies? they load up with massive doses of a partial agonist with a ceiling effect, or way too much methadone (the stories could tell you, Man, and I am sure vice versa)

It is beginning to annoy me, I mean it already gets/got me to the core the practices of ORT, however the average user is uneducated about the medication and does not realize they are making it worse

And with such high doses, some are beginning to ?abuse? a partial agonist, and less is more with bupe, and noticed that stupid Hugh doses cause mood swings, and hyperalgesia, which is not surprising considering it?s mixed agonist/antagonist properties and modest intrinsic activity

Yet the average person has trouble with ?Less is more? and these monuygrubbig/ignorant of they?re job which is SUPPOSED to be important to society, would simply be dumbfounded/ignore you

3 Different brand name formulations of Buprenorphine/Nalaxone, that alone tells you something
 
In reference to the original question, which has been answered but I will still add my own statement based on my personal, limited experience... if you plan to use as directed, strictly for maintenance purposes, it doesn't matter. Get whatever is cheapest, what your insurance will cover, etc.... It's the buprenorphine that is important. Nothing else really matters, it's either marketing or theoretical abuse deterrence. If it's bupe, it will do what it needs to do. The other details are just window dressing.

In regards to some of the other follow up conversations, I myself was induced and "stabilized" at 8mg. 4mg twice, an hour apart, at my first appointment. I was really fine with the first 4mg, but I played it out like I wasn't, so I could get the other 4mg, resulting in a prescription for 8mg daily. I did this intentionally, knowing that I wouldn't stay at 8mg for very long at all, would shortly have a surplus, and could begin stockpiling the surplus. With the eventual goal of cancelling the expensive appointments, having a generous supply of subs to taper down slowly and at my leisure, with gabapentin and clonidine ready for when I decide to jump off the subs, whenever that may be.

But the doctors... look, I like to consider myself a bright guy. I'm no genius, but I can hold my own in a battle of wits. My doctor, I'm not saying she's any more or less intelligent than me. But as far as the product knowledge, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I know more about buprenorphine than she does. I would say most of us on the forums know more about bupe than she does. That isn't to say she's not a good doctor. But it does correlate with Keif's earlier commentary on the licensing process and the landscape of the treatment industry in general. I could tell this doctor whatever I want to, and she'll keep writing that script for 8mg a day, as long as she's getting paid. Not because she doesn't care, or is some money hungry scoundrel, but that's what she knows to do, from her limited training. Ask a few questions, start at 4mg, go to 8mg if needed (and it will always be "needed" because stabilization doesn't go to Point A to Point B in an hour), and stay at 8mg forever. Forever, until the patient stops scheduling appointments.

I'm, ME PERSONALLY, okay with this scenario, as it applies TO ME. Because I've done the research, and I went in with a plan. But many people haven't done the research, and don't have a plan. And they'll be more hooked on the subs than they ever were on the herion. And that sucks.
 
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