So I read a post a while back by a guy named Homer. He stated a way to transition to subs without the worries of precipitated withdrawals. Has anyone ever experimented with this? I can see this working as most know that if you're stabled on suboxone/subutex and keep using your daily dose EVERYday, you can still use your full opiates and when you're done with the full opiates, you can switch back to subs without the fear of PW( precipitated withdrawal). So would this work the way around? Build up the subs in your blood while still using and slowly stop using dope and start using subs... Anyone ever tried it?
Bupe Suboxone or subutex building up in blood before induction period?
- Thread starter Ownage
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anonman17
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Hey - so I was just reading back over those same posts (from Homer). I didn't know that it's well known that if you keep taking your daily dose of Subs through opiate usage that you can just switch back onto only Subs when you're done. I wish I would have known that two weeks ago . . .
Anyways, I'm trying out Homer's idea to see what happens. I don't have much to report yet as it's only been one day. Did you give it a spin?
Anyways, I'm trying out Homer's idea to see what happens. I don't have much to report yet as it's only been one day. Did you give it a spin?
I am actually trying to today also. Will post it. I think tolerance level is too high for subs to work hence the reason why it takes subs like 4-6 days to stabilize. Cause you're not doing dope so your tolerance is dropping while the subs is filling up to that limited level.
Hey wanted to let you know I'm doing it right now. However I'm doing my way. Yesterday morning I took 4mg total for the first 2 hours and started to go slowly into sickness. Got the usual hot and cold chills but nothing else. That's when I started to do my gear and it subsided the hot and cold but I could still feel it. So I ended up taking another 4mg 5 hours later and did some more gear. Impossible feeling the hots and cold every now and then since I started. Last night I slept fine, just woke up a few times cause I was sweating but no restless leg (thank god! I hate that shit). Felt okay today not motivated but took another 4mg this morning and went to work. Still feeling the hot and cold on and off so I did some gear. Now I'm just like yesterday, feeling hot and cold every 2-4 minutes. It's nothing too bad, I can definitely handle this! I will try to up my sub tonight to 8mg and lower my gear. So I'm doing this within all of 4 day span. Let's hope it works! I kind of feel the subs trying to take over. I'm feeling like I'm getting that sub glow we used to get.... Hope it works! How are you doing? Oh yeah, makes me very emotional. Other than that, just the hot and cold. Easy peasy. I just hate the restless leg shit.
Anyone reading this proceed with cautious.
Anyone reading this proceed with cautious.
anonman17
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Hey Ownage - I see that you tried to shoot me a message; my inbox was full. I just emptied it out, apologies about that.
I've been taking little bits of Sub all through the day for the last three days. I'm averaging about 2 and half mgs of Sub a day while still using my gear, which I definitely still feel. I've had a hectic last couple days (was out of town for a class), so I really haven't had the time and privacy to really think about what I'm doing - just been trying to get the Subs in my system.
I'm home now, so I'm going to focus on getting the Subs up and the gear down. I'm worried that all I'm going to accomplish is making my opiate tolerance go up as I have to keep taking more and more gear to break through the Subs. I think that's less of an issue of the method not working and more of an issue of me indulging in addict behavior. Like anything, if I want this to work I've got to act like I want it to work, not just use as much as I want and then complain when I discover that I'm working against myself.
I'm going to get up to 3 mg of Subs tonight. Owage, you're going fast! I might try and do something similar where I take larger chunks at a time instead of a half mg at a time. I'll have more to report later.
Crimsonjunk - what do you mean by "the day after using became rough no matter how much Sub I took" ? This kind of induction is supposed to minimize discomfort by starting the Sub while you're still on the opiate of your choice so that opiate users can step-off their drug of choice instead of spending 20-40 hours in withdrawal and hoping that you waited long enough to start the Subs so you don't get the dreaded precipitated withdrawals.
I've been taking little bits of Sub all through the day for the last three days. I'm averaging about 2 and half mgs of Sub a day while still using my gear, which I definitely still feel. I've had a hectic last couple days (was out of town for a class), so I really haven't had the time and privacy to really think about what I'm doing - just been trying to get the Subs in my system.
I'm home now, so I'm going to focus on getting the Subs up and the gear down. I'm worried that all I'm going to accomplish is making my opiate tolerance go up as I have to keep taking more and more gear to break through the Subs. I think that's less of an issue of the method not working and more of an issue of me indulging in addict behavior. Like anything, if I want this to work I've got to act like I want it to work, not just use as much as I want and then complain when I discover that I'm working against myself.
I'm going to get up to 3 mg of Subs tonight. Owage, you're going fast! I might try and do something similar where I take larger chunks at a time instead of a half mg at a time. I'll have more to report later.
Crimsonjunk - what do you mean by "the day after using became rough no matter how much Sub I took" ? This kind of induction is supposed to minimize discomfort by starting the Sub while you're still on the opiate of your choice so that opiate users can step-off their drug of choice instead of spending 20-40 hours in withdrawal and hoping that you waited long enough to start the Subs so you don't get the dreaded precipitated withdrawals.
Anonman17, how did you know? Did the system tell you? Yeah I did try and got message that your PM was full. Lol. Yeah my experience is that when I take the subs, it throws me slightly into PW cause I can feel the hot and cold chills but as soon as I do gear, it goes away but comes back on later. On and off but very manageable! I feel like you, I feel like I'm just doing more gear like an addict would to help with the sickness. However I've noticed, I'm up to 8mg this morning and I only did a little bit of gear (like 3rd of what I would do) and it stopped the PW. Which is very very weird! I don't know if the subs has taken over but now I'm not feeling the hot or cold anymore but I been doing little gear thru out the day. I'll explain to you why I started high on subs. PM coming now!
darky185
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He means that it's rough no matter what... I agree.
After you stop doing the H you just feel shitty, it's mostly mental as subs take care of most of the physical shit but I still feel like ass hoping I had more dope. It seems to take me about 3 days to stabilize on subs and get my mind right. Taking subs like this sure doesn't put me in PW(been there, fuck that!) but it sure doesn't hold me as good as it normally might.
I see now. I've noticed at my first day starting, it would take almost double to take away the PW. As the days pass and as I increSe my subs and decrease my gear (I think lol), it's taking away the PW. I've noticed now I only need to do a little gear (I'm positive I'm decreasing gear because I've switched roxi) and the hot and cold chills I get right before the PW monster hits, goes away. So I don't know what's going on. I know my gear was top notch, it holds me over 14 hours. I've now switched to roxi to know how much I'm decreasing. I'm only doing 7.5mg of roxi and it takes away the PW that the 8mg subs I took this morning. I will agree, it's not painless transition but it's a lot better than plain ole PW! I can handle this hot and cold shit, it's the restless leg PW that I hate! As soon as I stabilize on subs, I'm never touching gear ever again! Only stick to my Peruvian.
Darky, as I mentioned earlier. I think tolerance has big role in PW duration and subs effects. I remember when subs held me over but as I kept taking it, I wouldn't get the glow it gave me but it wasn't making me sick. When I was stabled, I used to go about 2 days without subs and dose up again on the 3rd day and get that glow again. You just have to lower your tolerance for the subs to hold you over. If you can go 2-3 days before feeling any kind of sickness, do it and subs will hold you better. What I miss is the mornings waking up on subs, it just gave you that hang over good feeling when you feel the subs glow.
Darky, as I mentioned earlier. I think tolerance has big role in PW duration and subs effects. I remember when subs held me over but as I kept taking it, I wouldn't get the glow it gave me but it wasn't making me sick. When I was stabled, I used to go about 2 days without subs and dose up again on the 3rd day and get that glow again. You just have to lower your tolerance for the subs to hold you over. If you can go 2-3 days before feeling any kind of sickness, do it and subs will hold you better. What I miss is the mornings waking up on subs, it just gave you that hang over good feeling when you feel the subs glow.
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Wanted to update. I am up to 16mg of subs, 8mg split in the morning and one at night. I did my last Roxi which is like 5mg around 6pm and took my 8mg at 7pm. As usual, I got my hot and cold flashes but it seems to go away like it's been doing. I been on subs for the last 2 hours and no PW. I feel normal, I think I feel the subs over powering and curing my psychical symptoms. I'll report tomorrow as I won't have anymore gear to do. So I'll know if it's holding me over. If I get sick at 2-3am (estimated time for the Roxi to stop working) and if I take the subs later tonight and if it doesn't cure it. Then it didn't work. If I sleep thru the night till
Tomorrow, it worked!
Tomorrow, it worked!
Wanted to report. Woke up at 7am with hot sweats then cold but nothing bad. It went away as soon as I stayed up and plus I been working at my other job so I'm used to getting up early. I been laying in bed since and i feel normal! Not depressed or anything! I feel absolutely normal! Can eat and probably will eat soon since im hungry as shit from working 12 hour shift yesterday with no breakfast or lunch and small dinner since I passed out around 10pm! This worked great and I am never touching that shit again! I wasted so much money. Almost lost my mortgage and car. I'm on the very last penny and was living pay check by pay check for past couple days.
I been researching and from experience, I found out that tolerance has is the reason in PW. Like I stated why some gets PW and some don't. That's why I started out such high dose but I agree with most, subs is very powerful! No one needs to be as high as 16mg! However I believe if you want this to work, you have to go up to subs ceiling effect while lowering your gear (also that will lower your tolerance in the mean time).
I been researching and from experience, I found out that tolerance has is the reason in PW. Like I stated why some gets PW and some don't. That's why I started out such high dose but I agree with most, subs is very powerful! No one needs to be as high as 16mg! However I believe if you want this to work, you have to go up to subs ceiling effect while lowering your gear (also that will lower your tolerance in the mean time).
Ok, I need a little more help. I am trying this as well and I got the subs in my system but I am having trouble making that final jump.
With my OCD I got it in my head that suboxone might not work for me anymore because I took it in the morning and heroin at night for a little while. That was extremely stupid. It used to be I could take a mg of sub in the morning and then do gear in the afternoon, late evening. But what that accomplished was it pushed my tolerance to gear up very quickly so that I was doing more and more to break through the blockage.
well eventually I think my tolerance got high enough that the mg in the morning of subs didn't really do anything. At that point I hadn't done the research online where people are saying it's not that suboxone stops working for that person, it is that their tolerance to gear is too high for suboxone to take away the withdrawals.
well I managed to wait 22 hours and took suboxone, but felt really bad so did gear. Now I am back to the same routine I promised myself I would ever do again, where I take subs in the morning and gear at night.
i know this isn't good it has been five days and I need to stop gear completely.
two good things have happened, if we look on the bright side. I got my gear daily dosage almost cut in half, and I now have the subs in my system so I can wake up and take a mg and not get any worse.
that one mg doesn't take away the physical WD, those get worse and I will admit I don't wait long until I do gear.
So can you guys reassure me that tomorrow, when I commit to subs and don't take afternoon gear, if I start taking them in levels beyond one mg that they will build up in my body and take away at least a lot of the withdrawal symptoms.
its this darn OCD that is making me so worried about it, I've let my overactive imagination, because of something I read, convince myself that subs don't do anything for me anymore and I will stuck on gear forever.
but please tell me that they don't ever stop working. My non OCD friends say that's crazy, that heroin doesn't stop working, Oxus, dilapidated, you name it, they are scientifically proven to work and suboxone will too, it's a fact and I'm just being crazy.m so they will work right? Even if I have to take a lot the first couple days, like 16mg?
With my OCD I got it in my head that suboxone might not work for me anymore because I took it in the morning and heroin at night for a little while. That was extremely stupid. It used to be I could take a mg of sub in the morning and then do gear in the afternoon, late evening. But what that accomplished was it pushed my tolerance to gear up very quickly so that I was doing more and more to break through the blockage.
well eventually I think my tolerance got high enough that the mg in the morning of subs didn't really do anything. At that point I hadn't done the research online where people are saying it's not that suboxone stops working for that person, it is that their tolerance to gear is too high for suboxone to take away the withdrawals.
well I managed to wait 22 hours and took suboxone, but felt really bad so did gear. Now I am back to the same routine I promised myself I would ever do again, where I take subs in the morning and gear at night.
i know this isn't good it has been five days and I need to stop gear completely.
two good things have happened, if we look on the bright side. I got my gear daily dosage almost cut in half, and I now have the subs in my system so I can wake up and take a mg and not get any worse.
that one mg doesn't take away the physical WD, those get worse and I will admit I don't wait long until I do gear.
So can you guys reassure me that tomorrow, when I commit to subs and don't take afternoon gear, if I start taking them in levels beyond one mg that they will build up in my body and take away at least a lot of the withdrawal symptoms.
its this darn OCD that is making me so worried about it, I've let my overactive imagination, because of something I read, convince myself that subs don't do anything for me anymore and I will stuck on gear forever.
but please tell me that they don't ever stop working. My non OCD friends say that's crazy, that heroin doesn't stop working, Oxus, dilapidated, you name it, they are scientifically proven to work and suboxone will too, it's a fact and I'm just being crazy.m so they will work right? Even if I have to take a lot the first couple days, like 16mg?
Here, I found something from Mr. scagnante, I don't know if he comes around here much anymore but he said this:
"back and forth from bupe to using is not a good idea. It confuses your brain and eventually the bupe looses a lot of its efficiency and it becomes a lot harder to make the transition onto it."
is is this True? I really need these subs to work for me, please,tell me you guys, that they don't stop working. I'm totally psyching myself out. I need confidence.
"back and forth from bupe to using is not a good idea. It confuses your brain and eventually the bupe looses a lot of its efficiency and it becomes a lot harder to make the transition onto it."
is is this True? I really need these subs to work for me, please,tell me you guys, that they don't stop working. I'm totally psyching myself out. I need confidence.
I was on the habit of switching back and forth for 3 years. Was able to take suboxone as soon as the opiate high would wear off without any precipitated withdrawals. My conclusion is, the suboxone I took after would never completely work and I would still be a little sick for a few days until They would slowly start to work better. Didn't matter how long I waited after or how much suboxone I took. And your high is never that good if you don't wait a few days after using suboxone. This was my experience. hope it helps.
Old thread. Wanted to see if anyone had success with this? Also if anyone has any experience of using subs and gear at same time for long period of time. It's not a good idea to do that and I'm sure we have people who is currently and has done this. I want to see what are the effects of the meds if used with gear after a long period of time.
No more inputs? Such a big finding that helps transition to subs from high opiate tolerances and no one is interested? :x
Hey Anonman17! I got your text but I lost your number! I doubt you'll see this but PM me your number again! I'd love to see how your session went.
Hey Anonman17! I got your text but I lost your number! I doubt you'll see this but PM me your number again! I'd love to see how your session went.
Znegative
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Lol I love how Europeans call dope 'gear' for some reason it sounds like it's a person the way you guys talk about it, don't mean any offense it's kind of cute sounding really.
Anyway, it really doesn't make any sense to me to even bother trying to continue taking daily sub with daily dope, you're just ensuring neither will work as good as they would alone, and you're putting yourself more at risk for precipitated withdrawal, not less. Yeah you can use full agonist opiates on top of suboxone, and at a low enough sub dose you'll get high, and yeah you can usually take your next sub dose just the same, but when you're doing this every day you're setting yourself up for a problem. Also over time, when you switch back and forth a lot it makes it over time a lot harder to switch back to Suboxone and feel stabilized.
Anyway, it really doesn't make any sense to me to even bother trying to continue taking daily sub with daily dope, you're just ensuring neither will work as good as they would alone, and you're putting yourself more at risk for precipitated withdrawal, not less. Yeah you can use full agonist opiates on top of suboxone, and at a low enough sub dose you'll get high, and yeah you can usually take your next sub dose just the same, but when you're doing this every day you're setting yourself up for a problem. Also over time, when you switch back and forth a lot it makes it over time a lot harder to switch back to Suboxone and feel stabilized.
dizzyrascal912
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I just wanted to share my experience. It actually wasn't Homer's post I read, but another guy that recommended taking small doses of suboxone an hour after his last shot that gave me the idea of letting the suboxone build up first. He said it worked for him, his ex, and her brother, so myself and my husband tried it. Anyway, I'm going to apologize in advance for this post being too long. But with all the research I did prior to my suboxone induction, I really hope this can help someone!
So a little background - I've been using heroin for the last 5 years. I snort about 1.5-2 grams a day of pretty good quality stuff. Prior to this 5 year stint, I did get clean with suboxone for one year, but I was involved with a drug court program at the time and they forced me to stop the suboxone, resulting in a relapse shortly after. (Not that it was their fault.) In the last 5 years, I've tried to induct suboxone at least 5 times, but everytime I tried, the suboxone wouldn't work. So by the 2nd day, I would be puking, hot/cold sweats, diarrhea, restless legs, no sleep, achy, the whole thing...I couldn't hang & would use immediately. This time I needed to make it work in order to move forward with my life, but I was scared out of my mind for the induction process because of my past experiences. So I researched the shit out of all the tips I could find and compared them to things I have and have not tried. Here is what I did.
So first of all - I had to ween down my usage. I went from 2 grams to 1.5 grams to 1 gram to .5 a gram. I did this over a period of about 2 weeks. Once I did .5 of a gram for 2 days, I took 3 days off life to induct the suboxone. Friday, the last day I used, I did a small line in the morning and a small line at 3pm - probably like a 10 line a piece. By 6pm I took 1/2 mg of suboxone. An hour later I took another 1/2mg, an hour later another 1/2mg - and I continued this until I had taken 4mg altogether. That night I also took a ativan to sleep and a klotopin for my restless legs. (Looking back, idk if I would've taken the klotopin, it worked, but the next day I was SUPER lazy/heavy.) I slept that night. The next morning I set an alarm & took 2mg suboxone at like 5am, another 2mg when I got up at 11am, another 2mg at 2pm, and another 2mg at 8pm. I also smoked a bowl and took another ativan to sleep that night. Although I had no energy that day, I never got any withdrawal symptoms. The next day, I took 4mg before I woke up at 5am and another 2mg around 1pm - again I smoked a little weed and took an ativan that night to sleep - but I had a little more energy and still not the slightest withdrawal symptom. By the next day, I was able to take just 4mg of suboxone and felt pretty okay. I continued to take 4mg for 2 more days, since then I've just been taking 2mg and it's held me pretty well.
I know that was probably more detailed than necessary, but the overall idea is take small amounts of suboxone - like a half milligram/one milligram - at a time, not enough to put you in precipitated withdrawal, but enough to begin to get it in your blood stream. I think where I went wrong in past attempts was I went from doing 1-1.5 grams...waiting 24 hours then taking 8mg suboxone. Not good. 1st of all, my habit was too high to come off of, the suboxone took awhile to get in my bloodstream, & it was too much suboxone all at once.
But this time, not to have ANY withdrawal symptoms, to be able to chill & watch TV without having restless legs, to not be running to the bathroom every 2 seconds to puke or have diarrhea - it was far more than I could have ever expected. By doing such a small amount the last day I used, I was able to take the small amounts of suboxone quickly after, avoiding that 18 hour waiting period. It was like a miracle.
So that's what I did. It worked for me. Thank you to the mystery guy that posted his story of doing this, because it may have saved my life. I really hope this is able to help someone else out there that was all freaked out like I was. It's going to be okay - you can do this!
So a little background - I've been using heroin for the last 5 years. I snort about 1.5-2 grams a day of pretty good quality stuff. Prior to this 5 year stint, I did get clean with suboxone for one year, but I was involved with a drug court program at the time and they forced me to stop the suboxone, resulting in a relapse shortly after. (Not that it was their fault.) In the last 5 years, I've tried to induct suboxone at least 5 times, but everytime I tried, the suboxone wouldn't work. So by the 2nd day, I would be puking, hot/cold sweats, diarrhea, restless legs, no sleep, achy, the whole thing...I couldn't hang & would use immediately. This time I needed to make it work in order to move forward with my life, but I was scared out of my mind for the induction process because of my past experiences. So I researched the shit out of all the tips I could find and compared them to things I have and have not tried. Here is what I did.
So first of all - I had to ween down my usage. I went from 2 grams to 1.5 grams to 1 gram to .5 a gram. I did this over a period of about 2 weeks. Once I did .5 of a gram for 2 days, I took 3 days off life to induct the suboxone. Friday, the last day I used, I did a small line in the morning and a small line at 3pm - probably like a 10 line a piece. By 6pm I took 1/2 mg of suboxone. An hour later I took another 1/2mg, an hour later another 1/2mg - and I continued this until I had taken 4mg altogether. That night I also took a ativan to sleep and a klotopin for my restless legs. (Looking back, idk if I would've taken the klotopin, it worked, but the next day I was SUPER lazy/heavy.) I slept that night. The next morning I set an alarm & took 2mg suboxone at like 5am, another 2mg when I got up at 11am, another 2mg at 2pm, and another 2mg at 8pm. I also smoked a bowl and took another ativan to sleep that night. Although I had no energy that day, I never got any withdrawal symptoms. The next day, I took 4mg before I woke up at 5am and another 2mg around 1pm - again I smoked a little weed and took an ativan that night to sleep - but I had a little more energy and still not the slightest withdrawal symptom. By the next day, I was able to take just 4mg of suboxone and felt pretty okay. I continued to take 4mg for 2 more days, since then I've just been taking 2mg and it's held me pretty well.
I know that was probably more detailed than necessary, but the overall idea is take small amounts of suboxone - like a half milligram/one milligram - at a time, not enough to put you in precipitated withdrawal, but enough to begin to get it in your blood stream. I think where I went wrong in past attempts was I went from doing 1-1.5 grams...waiting 24 hours then taking 8mg suboxone. Not good. 1st of all, my habit was too high to come off of, the suboxone took awhile to get in my bloodstream, & it was too much suboxone all at once.
But this time, not to have ANY withdrawal symptoms, to be able to chill & watch TV without having restless legs, to not be running to the bathroom every 2 seconds to puke or have diarrhea - it was far more than I could have ever expected. By doing such a small amount the last day I used, I was able to take the small amounts of suboxone quickly after, avoiding that 18 hour waiting period. It was like a miracle.
So that's what I did. It worked for me. Thank you to the mystery guy that posted his story of doing this, because it may have saved my life. I really hope this is able to help someone else out there that was all freaked out like I was. It's going to be okay - you can do this!
You're not waiting long enough before trying suboxone. Wait 8 at minimum while 12 is optimal minimum 24 hours is really what you should shoot for if you can. You'll notice the difference when your sick in withdrawals and start feeling better in less than five minutes pretty much once the sub dose is dissolved under the tounge.