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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

Opioids STIMULANTS to kick OPIOIDS? Not as preposterous as it sounds: Historical overview and summary. Add your experiences, success stories, fiascos👇

darvocet21

Bluelighter
Joined
May 31, 2021
Messages
25,809
It's not as surprising as you might think.

Coca-Cola:
In 1886 Civil War veteran John Pemberton created his mix of cocaine and kola nut extract to ease morphine withdrawal.

Morphinism, as it was then called, had afflicted an est. 400,000 veterans by the end of the war in 1865, though it is not known if Pemberton was among them. However by 1886 the average veteran was over 40, and as addicts get older they become more willing to quit. Pemberton no doubt knew about this personally or from fellow vets.

(Noteworthy: during the 1800s people addicted to morphine were not persecuted or discriminated against and the drug was available without a prescription, although morphinism was widely viewed as a moral failing.)

Dr. Freud:
As a young doctor in the 1880s, Freud was so enthusiastic about cocaine he wrote "On Coca," which he called "a song of praise to this miracle substance" specifically admiring its ability to loosen the tongue, which may have led to his later idea of free association by patients undergoing psychoanalysis. He shared cocaine widely with friends and colleagues, his preferred method of administering the drug was to dissolve it in water and drink it.

He later proposed and tested cocaine as a cure for morphinism. When he gave it to close friend Ernst von Fleischl-Marxow to wean him from his morphine addiction and relieve chronic pain, it worked. In fact it worked too well: his friend became a cocaine addict. Freud was probably addicted himself, he was certainly using the drug up to the period that included the writing his first and most influential book: On the Interpretation of Dreams

20th C. mystery. If coke why not speed?
Less is known about the relative success of attempting to use amphetamines for opioid withdrawal. A 10-minute search turned up few references: a piece published by a rehabilitation center that dismissed the idea and another which surveyed addicts about the effectiveness of non-opioid drugs of abuse in alleviating opioid withdrawals. Only benzodiazepines, tricyclic antidepressants (eg amitriptyline) and alcohol were considered helpful, and only by about half of respondents. The article continued:

"A worsening of opioid withdrawal was reported by 62% of the patients for cocaine, 62% for amphetamine, 50% for caffeine, 37.5% for cannabis, 27% for nicotine, 26% for alcohol, 8% for tricyclic antidepressants and 3% for benzodiazepines."

Summary:
The usefulness of cocaine in alleviating withdrawal from opioids did not translate into similar attempts with amphetamines and their derivatives, possibly due to the experience with precipitating cocaine addiction, although also likely due to reluctance to promote one addictive substance as a cure for another (despite distinct qualitative differences between the two types of habituation)

PLEASE SHARE YOUR EXPERIENCE USING STIMULANTS TO HELP WITH OPIOID WITHDRAWALS (VOLUNTARY OR INVOLUNTARY), THE GOOD, BAD & UGLY!
 
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Stimulants make opiate withdrawal much worse in my opinion. Anyone trying to justify stimulants as an opiate withdrawal aid, seems to me, to be trying to find an excuse to keep using stimulants. Not that i'm judging, but that's the way I see it
 
It is excellent to take a break if you've only been chipping. Or taking kratom a couple times a day. You can completely obliterate the cravings for opioids over the course of several days, with the Proviso that you've got to stay high
 
only way i found to kick is 7 day rapid Suboxone taper or just ride it out. nothing really is easy. you pay back every minute of being high with a minute of misery. thus is life. nothing is free
 
only way i found to kick is 7 day rapid Suboxone taper or just ride it out. nothing really is easy. you pay back every minute of being high with a minute of misery. thus is life. nothing is free
I've never heard such tosh in my life (and I don't mean Peter Tosh)

There's a price to be paid for everything. There is NO simple mathematical formulas to junk addiction, it's far too complex and involves far too many variables: age, health, metabolism, psychology as well as pharmacology, biochemistry, environmental factors, family, work, education so on... A major factor also is class, whether or not you can afford to plonk down $15 or 20 grand for the Waismann Method puts you at a huge advantage. But if you're not ready to stop using no amount of money you throw at the problem will help... I met someone whose family had already paid for several detoxes under anesthesia & he was back at the clinic after going out again, telling me he'd already scheduled his next procedure. So money was no impediment to quitting, or should I say using?

But a little bit of forethought, planning, ingenuity and grit can go a long way to pushing that ratio in a favorable direction. The most important ingredient is Faith. In a power greater than oneself, and the belief that this will all work out in the end. Something that is typically missing in the first place if somebody begins to abuse opioids especially for emotional and psychological pain.

There are some whose ratio is weighted heavily towards sickness, because of bad habits or bad judgment. Some are addicted to the cycle: dopesick-getting fixed. Others have created too much bad Karma over the course of their lives.

However you deal with the scary but time-limited experience of punching the reset button on your receptor sites, you still are left w/ You. Have you reached a level of spiritual mental and emotional maturity necessary to stay clean? Without a support network that includes friends, family, fellow addicts in recovery, 12-step meetings Church attendance or participation in a larger community no amount of detoxes however hard or easy will be enough...
 
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only way i found to kick is 7 day rapid Suboxone taper or just ride it out. nothing really is easy. you pay back every minute of being high with a minute of misery. thus is life. nothing is free
By the way I agree that the best use by far of Suboxone is for detoxing. Even the naloxone component contributes in a positive way for this, whereas it becomes a liability over long-term use.



excerpt:
"evidence accumulated particularly over the last decade indicates that adding naloxone to buprenorphine may not be as effective a deterrent to misuse by parenteral (i.e., outside the gastrointestinal tract) administration as once thought, and for many patients, naloxone may in fact make the combination product less safe than buprenorphine monotherapy."
 
By the way I agree that the best use by far of Suboxone is for detoxing. Even the naloxone component contributes in a positive way for this, whereas it becomes a liability over long-term use.



excerpt:
"evidence accumulated particularly over the last decade indicates that adding naloxone to buprenorphine may not be as effective a deterrent to misuse by parenteral (i.e., outside the gastrointestinal tract) administration as once thought, and for many patients, naloxone may in fact make the combination product less safe than buprenorphine monotherapy."
idk nothing about that. i just used heroin for 30 years
 
By the way I agree that the best use by far of Suboxone is for detoxing. Even the naloxone component contributes in a positive way for this, whereas it becomes a liability over long-term use.



excerpt:
"evidence accumulated particularly over the last decade indicates that adding naloxone to buprenorphine may not be as effective a deterrent to misuse by parenteral (i.e., outside the gastrointestinal tract) administration as once thought, and for many patients, naloxone may in fact make the combination product less safe than buprenorphine monotherapy."

My favorite line from that article was:

Many patients with substance use disorders make use of independent, non-evidence based internet harm reduction sites such as “Bluelight” and “Erowid.”

Evidence based? I got your evidence right here 😏

At least bluelight got first billing. Not sure what the deal is with erowid these days, all they offer now is their repository of experience reports (which is valuable i admit)
 
My favorite line from that article was:

Many patients with substance use disorders make use of independent, non-evidence based internet harm reduction sites such as “Bluelight” and “Erowid.”

Evidence based? I got your evidence right here 😏

At least bluelight got first billing. Not sure what the deal is with erowid these days, all they offer now is their repository of experience reports (which is valuable i admit)
Non-evidence based = Experienced

and you Doctor ru experienced?
 
I’d say there’s not much point using stimulants to kick opiates only to end up with a stim addiction. But then again a stim addiction is a lot more manageable than an opiate addiction so long as you are not predisposed to psychosis or you manage it with anti-psychotics. But other than some legitimate medically managed substitution therapies and short term tapers most stories of substituting self-selected drugs for one’s drug of addiction don’t end with a clean person if that’s the goal. Seems like therapy of one kind of another plays an important role in getting the monkey off one’s back forever for most people. As does going through several relapse cycles and somehow learning something from them.

I’ve never messed with opiates but I can’t even use abundant Rx stims to replace street stims effectively.
 
Subs worked great for me. i relapsed a few times but I'm clean atm.
Please share the taper, it would help other people I think a great deal to know ... What was your starting dose of Suboxone? What did you end at? Did you supplement with other things benzos, sleeping pills and so on?

I'm a huge advocate of using poisons to fight poisons, which is a skill that the rest of society may scoff at but most addicts know as a matter of course...and realize just how useful it is in their hour of need
 
Please share the taper, it would help other people I think a great deal to know ... What was your starting dose of Suboxone? What did you end at? Did you supplement with other things benzos, sleeping pills and so on?

I'm a huge advocate of using poisons to fight poisons, which is a skill that the rest of society may scoff at but most addicts know as a matter of course...and realize just how useful it is in their hour of need
i was in rehab so i don't know how much they gave me.
 
Bluelight.ru experienced 😌

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I’d say there’s not much point using stimulants to kick opiates only to end up with a stim addiction. But then again a stim addiction is a lot more manageable than an opiate addiction so long as you are not predisposed to psychosis or you manage it with anti-psychotics. But other than some legitimate medically managed substitution therapies and short term tapers most stories of substituting self-selected drugs for one’s drug of addiction don’t end with a clean person if that’s the goal. Seems like therapy of one kind of another plays an important role in getting the monkey off one’s back forever for most people. As does going through several relapse cycles and somehow learning something from them.

I’ve never messed with opiates but I can’t even use abundant Rx stims to replace street stims effectively.
Swapping one addiction for another is a huge win if the one you now have involves a kick that's subjectively much easier from an opioid addicts perspective.......

So you kicked meth finally, what was that like?

Worst thing I ever went through in my life

What happened?

I slept for two whole weeks. I mean I didn't sleep the whole time. Plus when I got up I was starving. Ate everything I could find... Twinkies, zingers.
But that s*** didn't satiate me so I had my ex bring me In-N-Out, Del Tac. Ate huge quantities. Also healthier stuff. She still cares about me. She was the one who inspired me to do it, by breaking up w me. Fucking b****

So how you doing now?

I'm depressed, life seems pointless and I think about smoking meth all the time.

But you haven't?

Nope. Not yet at least. But this brain fog sucks, which is why I drink about three cups of coffee when I wake up and more throughout the day.......
 
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