• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Stimulants of the Future

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Riemann, my problem with that comparison was that no one seems to experience any MDxx-like affects from fenfluramine or dextrofenfluramine (at least to my knowledge). D-amp. releases NA and DA, as do most amps, but it was my understanding this contributes mainly to the stimulant (speed) effects). Therefore, I'm making an assumption here: the 5-HT release it likely to be responsible for the 'trippiness' of MDxx compounds. But if this is the case, then I'd expect dextrofenfluramine and/or fenfluramine to have similar 'trippy' effects, but to my knowledge, they don't. Maybe they (dextrofen. and fen.) don't have the same affinity for the 5-HT2a receptor, which you say "contribute to their [MDxx compounds] 'trippiness.'"

So, how would combine dextrofenfluramine/fenfluramine (5-HT release) + an amphetamine (like d-amp. with NA and DA release) resemble the effects of MDxx compounds?

Smyth, where can I find the information on the US patent you mentioned? I link would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
 
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I wonder if enough people took a large enough dose of (d)-fenfluramine to notice (and report) effects? The average dose was 10-15 mg when it was still on the market. Imagine taking 10 mg of MDEA. Would one feel the effect of that? Also, I dug up an old (2003) review article by Rothman & Baumann (link below) that had EC50 values of neurotransmitter release (not reuptake, but truly release) for a number of phenethylamines (all in nM):

Phenethylamine: 5-HT; NA; DA

(d)-amphetamine: 1765; 7.07; 24.8

(d)-phenmetrazine: 3246; 37.5; 87.4

(d)-methamphetamine: 736; 12.3; 24.5

(d)-fenfluramine: 51.7; 302; 10000

(dl)-MDMA: 56.6; 77.4; 376


So, at least on paper, (d)-fenfluramine and (dl)-MDMA are equipotent 5-HT releasers. Mix a little (d)-amphetamine into the picture and you've got yourself a party...in vitro, at least. I wonder what the values for 4-fluoroamphetamine are?

Rothman & Baumann (2003). Eur. J. Pharmacol. 479: 23-40.
 
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But then MDMA seems to release dopamine in some funny way... because its PKC 'dependent' in the striatum, but not in the prefrontal cortex... (1. Damn that paper confuses me. See I'm under the impression that dopamine release in the prefrontal cortex is mediated by 5-HT2A receptor facilitation of impulse dependent release, while in the rest of the brian its because of amphetamine-like action on the dopamine transporter... but that shit doesn't fit very well with that paper, even though its not complete, as they don't use any 5-HT2 receptor antagonists, or any transporter blockers.
 
I always assumed that the propensity of MDMA to release DA was due to its methamphetamine-like character. Isn't MDMA's affinity for the 5-HT2a receptor rather low, in the micromolar range? It seems really bizarre that in the striatum, of all places, dopamine release would be dependent on 5-HT2a receptor activation, rather than amphetamine-esque reverse-transport.

One thing I have never seen in press is the affinity of MDMA for the vesicular monoamine uptake transporters (VMAT-1 & -2). The Ki for (d)-amphetamine is << 100 nM. I wonder about MDMA?
 
Riemann Zeta said:
I always assumed that the propensity of MDMA to release DA was due to its methamphetamine-like character. Isn't MDMA's affinity for the 5-HT2a receptor rather low, in the micromolar range? It seems really bizarre that in the striatum, of all places, dopamine release would be dependent on 5-HT2a receptor activation, rather than amphetamine-esque reverse-transport.

One thing I have never seen in press is the affinity of MDMA for the vesicular monoamine uptake transporters (VMAT-1 & -2). The Ki for (d)-amphetamine is << 100 nM. I wonder about MDMA?

Do you care to elablorate on this please. It looks interesting although I find myself completely unable to comprehend it for the most part.
 
Yeah, but there is evidence of a distinct paucity of dopamine transporters activity in the (pre)frontal cortex(1), so you can't do an amphetamine like release with no transporter and MDMA-induced dopamine release in the prefrontal cortex tends to be 5-HT2 receptor dependent (to a degree) (2). The source of 5-HT2 stimulation isn't MDMA directly, it's going to be the serotonin (kinda shown by these two papers (3, 4), the effect is weak probably because they are in the striatum, note how in 3, fluoxetines dopamine blocking effects are lost in the slice? Probably because theyre not getting overflow from the cortex).

It's still kinda speculative, but that's how I see it. There's also the possiblity of noradrenergic neurons co-releasing dopamine (5), which complicates things further. Theoretically, you could get a situation where, in the prefrontal cortex, MDMA-is stimulating 5-HT release, which activates 5-HT2(a?) receptors, increasing actionpotential-dependent dopamine release, and MDMA having amphetamine like action on noradrenergic neurons, causing dopmaine/noradrenaline co-release.

(I've never seen a MDMA VMAT affinity either).
 
In vivo!

So, at least on paper, (d)-fenfluramine and (dl)-MDMA are equipotent 5-HT releasers. Mix a little (d)-amphetamine into the picture and you've got yourself a party...in vitro, at least.

By taking a drug with a much higher 5HT to DA/NA releasing ratio compared with MDA/MDMA (eg IAP), and adding a bit of amphetamine to the mix (to get a ratio closer to that of the methylenedioxy drugs), you can get afairly good approximation to MDA. I found that a 1:1 ratio of IAP to racaemic (dl) amphetamine got fairly close, but if someone had the materials and inclination to experiment, a variety of subjective effects may be possible; all being an aproximation to a MDxx type experience.
 
Wrong form of methamphetamine

I think clear, recrystallized, nearly pure dl-methamphetamine hydrochloride is probably going to remain king of the stimulants for some time.

Racemic meth is not commonly encountered nowadays. You're referring to the dextrorotary isomer, and trust me, it may be clear and recrystallized, but it certainly is not pure :D
 
Is there a major difference in effects between racemic methamphetamine and d-meth?
 
L-methylamphetmine has basically no effect other than adrenoreceptor agonism in vivo--it is basically akin to ephedrine in 'psychical intensity,' from what I have read (PNS effects, sweating, rapid HR, BP, etc). I have never taken any sort of methamphetamine, so I don't really know what either of the feel like, but I'd bet the comparison would be similar to Adderall vs. Dexedrine.
 
ah okay i thought it was kinda like that, the mixed-salts type thing going on in Adderall. thanks
 
I find it hard to believe that methamphetamine will bow out to amphetamine sulfates easily.... even though I could see the DEA trying to make almonds illegal...
 
Is there a major difference in effects between racemic methamphetamine and d-meth?

Yes. If you took the same amounts of racemic and stereospecific meth, you would defenitely be able to descern between the two, and you would defenitely notice the high produced from the racemic product is defenitely different. It's still subjective, but pretty much all meth nowadays is d-meth.

Tweakers I know were given some racemic meth and initially were disappointed, but later ended up enjoying it just as much and in half the cases even more. This is attributed to their reports of a weaker but more euphoric high and a less exhaustive and shorter lasting comedown. All tweakers pretty much reported that tolerance levels remain identical between the two types.

Since everyone's had d-meth and only very few have had racemic meth, technical information probably won't do you any good. And unless you used meth in the '70s and up to the late '80s, you likely have never had racemic meth and likely never will. It truly is the superb product in my opinion in every aspect, and most tweakers given the product ended up in agreement with that statement.
 
Possible new directions

As the legal side catches up with the experimental chemist, it means you have to cast your net further afield in order to "catch" more useful (but as yet uncontrolled) stimulants. I reckon some of the field with really rich pickings are derivatives of phenmetrazine, fencamfamine and pipradrol.

Starting with phenmetrazine

59655phenmetrazine_analogues-med.JPG


Now phenmetrazine, is quite well known as a drug of abuse, but when people think of phendimetrazine, they tend to think of 2-phenyl-3,4-dimethylmorpholine (one of the methyl groups being attached to the nitrogen atom); this isn't too hot as a stimulant. If the second methyl group is moved to the 6 position (cmpnd 2) though, you end up with a compound that has the same potency as phenmetrazine, but isn't yet controlled. Or alternatively, you can replace the oxygen with a methylene group, to give 2-methyl-3-phenylpiperidine (cmpnd 3). This doesn't release dopamine as phenmetrazine does, but is actually a reuptake inhibitor (similar mechanism to methylphenidate). One other alternative is 2-methyl-3-phenylquinuclidine, which is also a reuptake inhibitor (no dosage info for last two, only that they are active; cmpnd 2 is same dose as phenmetrazine, namely 25mg)

Fencamfamine also lends itself to a lot of fiddling and tweaking of the basic skeleton

59655fencamfamine_analogues.JPG


Both 2-phenylcyclohexylamine and 2-phenylcyclopentylamine are active CNS stimulants at 20mg, although this is a two fold drop in potency when compared with fencamfamine (10mg), although N-methylation of the amine function might give some increase in activity; cmpnd 4 is active, but alas, no dosage data for that one either. All four compounds are unusual in being both dopamine releasers and inhibitors of its reuptake (and fencamfamine is probably the smoothest stimulant I have ever tried - absolutely no peripheral activity such as increase in heart rate)

Pipradrol derivatives are the one where most hope lies.

59655pipradrol_analogues-med.JPG


Shulgin wrote about 2-(diphenylmethyl)piperidine as being a possible future drug of abuse, as it is estimated to have the same CNS stimulant properties as methamphetamine, but to be active at 2.5mg as opposed to 5mg for methamphetamine, and also to have less peripheral activity as well. It's a bit more complicated to synthesise than meth from pseudoephedrine, but once governments have finished trying to stop bathtub meth manufacture, it may become a possibility for some chemists. Pipradrol os active at 2mg, but is not a strong stimulant (prob because of the tertiary alcohol group - remove it to get 2-(diphenylmethyl)piperidine). The pyrrolidine analogue of pipradrol is also a CNS stimulant, similar to pipradrol and active at 5mg (it was offered by one of the research firms that were closed by Web Tryp), and as with pipradrol, almost all of the activity was present in one optical isomer only. Finally to the great hope that is 3-(diphenylmethyl)morpholine. In a paper where a whole series of diphenylmethyl derivatives of heterocyclic rings werte produced , it was the most active of all the compounds teste; should have an active dose in man of around 1mg, and similar in effect to the compound Shulgin favoured: And the best bit, it can be synthed from the synthetic amino acid diphenylalanine (which is fairly available) by reduction to diphenylalaninol, reaction with 2-iodoethanol, then ring closure to the morpholine by removal of a molecule of water by conc sulphuric acid (same way phenmetrazine is synthesised). It would definitly be worth considering for a chemist with a desire to create (and it's not controlled... yet).


One last bit for the cocaine lovers among you.

59655cocaine_analogues.JPG



The 3-alpha-phenyltropane with an acetylated 2-hydroxy group in the axial position has been assessed as being 60x the potency of cocaine, with a fairly similar pharmacological profile (ie abusable, unlike the Win series compounds with an axial 2-methylcarboxyl group). I remember reading that the unesterified compound is less active, but still moreso than cocaine. The OH goup must be axial to the ring though, or its potency becomes a fraction of that of cocaine's.

The last two are very simple compounds that are esters of pseudotropine. The benzoate ester is also known as tropacocaine and has a potency of about 0.1x that of cocaine. replacing benzoic acid with 4-fluorobenzoic acid gives a compound of aprox 0.4x the potency of cocaine; considering how easy it is to synth (and not from monitored reagents - you can actually start from atropine and get to 3-pseudotropyl 4-fluorobenzoate in a few easy steps), I'm really surprised that it hasn't shown up in street cocaine. Maybe the market is so saturated that no one thinks it's economically viable
 
Since I didn't think one could attach files, I didn't include structures of my stims of the future before, but here they are now:
 
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The synth of N-benzhydrylpropan-1-amine is even easier than that: diphenyl ketone & n-propylamine under reductive conditions (NaBH3CN or another weak reducing agent should do).
 
Riemann Zeta:

Are the benzhydrylamine derivative reutake inhibitiors, as I've never come across them as CNS stimulants (except in a long and winding way, via 1-benzylpiperidine - if you see what I mean). Do you have refs?

Can't say I would hold too much store by 2-benzylaziridine, and poss 2-benzylazetidine, as the ring stain of three and four membered rings makes them too dodgy as DNA (or whatevers around!) alkylators. 1,2-dimethyl-3-phenylaziridine is a by product of meth synthesis via RP/I synthesis route, and it's very toxic (will truely fuck your kidneys). I know of one person at least who's come a cropper from it.

Of the others, ethylphenidate is only about 20% as effective as methylphenidate as a stimulant (there is a paper somewhere about higher homologue esters derived from methylphenidate stating that, but I can't for the life of me remember the ref. Might be worth searching). Ethcathinone is fairly effective, between tyhe potency of methcathinone and diethylpropion (got to try it many, many years ago), but the one I really hope is effective is 2-benzylpiperidine; if it is effective, then 3-benzylmorpholine should be as well, and it can be synthed by reducing phenylalanine, then using 2-iodoethanol in ring closure, by the same method as phenmetrazine. By starting with D or L phenylalanine, you can even make specific optical isomers (ho ho!).

The others look interesting, but I can't say that I know that much about them. If you're after reuptake inhibitors though, apparently 4-benzhydrylpyridine derivs are quite effective, but all the refs are on the unmentionable site.

Purchase of 2-carboxymethyl pyrrole [proline] followed by the addition of two equivalents of phenylmagnesium bromide would be an easy ticket for the unambitous hobbyist.

Smyth:

If you're really lazy (hell I am, given the chance!), you don't even need to synth the pyrrolidine analogue of pipradrol. You can buy it ready synthed (as separate optical isomers), if you know where to look, as it's used for resolving optically active alcohols. It's actually not bad as a stimulant; doesn;t destroy your appetite, and very little jaw tension; just it lasts a fuckin' long time, which you don't always want (as part of my lazy side, I do like my sleep).

PS proline is pyrrolidine-2-carboxylate, not pyrrole, bur I know what you mean.
 
You might be right about the small heterocyclic ring-closed amphetamines, I just threw them out there because they are similar to the MAO-A inhibitor called tranylcypromine, which is a non-heterocyclic cyclopropyl amphetamine derivative (b-ethyl and a-methyl carbons are linked)--I've always wondered if tranylcypromine has any alkylating activity.

As for ethylated stimulants, the one article that I read on ethylphenidate (a long time ago) mentioned that it was about equal in potency to methylphenidate and longer lasting (a plus). I'll try to dig up a ref.

Ethylcathinone is the active metabolite of diethylpropion. Much like phendimetrazine, diethylpropion is inactive by itself, but is converted to ethylcathinone by first-pass metabolism. So I would imagine that ethylcathinone would be like super-fast acting diethylpropion. I have never taken any diethylpropion myself, what is it like?

The 3-benzylmorpholine compound you mention is indeed fun looking. However, I don't see how you get it with phenylalanine and 2-iodoethanol (without, maybe a super strong acid). Perhaps reduced phenylalanine (yuck, LAH!) and 1,2-dichloroethane?
 
You dont like LiAlH4? It is used pretty frequently in organic chemistry you know. The problem is that it doesnt last very long maybe 1 year tops.
 
I know LiAlH4 is used frequently and I have used it on a number of occasions. It is, however, a fairly dangerous reagent in terms of its toxicity, reactivity, explosiveness, etc. Due to the tremendous amount of caution that must be exercised to use it safely (N2 atmosphere, dry THF solvent, blast shield), I would rather avoid all the hassle and use something more mild like NaBH3CN. Besides, milder reagents are more friendly to sensitive molecules and give fewer side products.
 
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