Stimulants: Kiss Nasty Vasoconstriction Goodbye

[Kilfer]

Are you actually measuring your blood pressure or is this all based upon percieved effects? 15mg of temazepam isn't a super low dose. If you don't use benzos on a regular basis that's more than enough to give you a little buzz... probably quite a bit more than just vasodilation.

I have been using a prescribed dose of 45mg temazepam fairly regularly over the last decade as a hypnotic although I have toned it down a bit over the last few months. Availability rather than optimal suitability is the reason why it was used in this early experiment. I intend to procure a pediatrics-potency benzo for further experiments, most likely diazepam 2mg since few others appear to be available. The immediate objective is to determine if satisfactory effects of coronary vasodilation can be achieved with a dosage that will not trigger perceivable benzodiazepine central effects on a subject familiar with therapeutic doses of a strong benzo.

My advice is to not take doses of stimulants that jack your blood pressure and/or cause anxiety to the point where it's an issue... benzodiazepines should be drugs used in emergency freakouts, not as part of a cocktail to make your stimulant tolerable.

Like many otherwise beneficial drugs, several if not most amphetamine-like substances -including methylphenidate and several of its derivatives- cause certain untoward effects and it is my opinion that cessation of use is not always the only solution if an acceptable adjunct can be found to mitigate adverse effects. This project is only one of many that have been or are being casually investigated on an empirical basis by otherwise satisfied users. The primary objective is the reducing of the discomfort caused by coronary vasoconstriction, with the ultimate but optional benefit of reducing systemic vasoconstriction. Whether or not a benzo is the most appropriate agent for these purposes has not yet been even tentatively established at this early stage.

It doesn't help that it's very easy to cause a self-perpetuating loop of anxiety and panic for some people.

If the stimulant itself was causing me an unacceptable level of anxiety and panic I wouldn't be using it. My objective concerns a specific user profile, those who are concerned about issues pertaining specifically to the discomfort of coronary vasoconstriction (tightness of chest and associated pains) but otherwise tolerant of annoying but manageable (to them) stimulant side effects.

there's no real long term 'harm reduction' in telling them to practice polypharmacy so they can use a drug their body doesn't agree with.

The harm reduction aspect is not meant to be of universal appeal. Instead it concerns users who are determined to continue their usage because they find productivity benefits in it. Being part of this marginal fringe should not automatically obligate one to have to deal with an untoward side effect if it can be mitigated through the use of an acceptable agent.

Have you tried using lorazepam sublingually rather than orally? I've never heard of it taking 2 hours to kick in.

I have a slow metabolism rate, in fact that's the reason why I was prescribed a fast-acting -and thus more addictive- benzo hypnotic by the neurologist I had ben referred to treat intractable insomnia, a condition I have lived with for nearly 35 years. Unfortunately neither temazepam nor lorazepam are best suited for the project.

The idea is to use the lowest potency, least centrally active benzo you can find at the lowest dose.

Exactly. But for now I have to settle for diazepam 2mg, it's the lowest-potency benzo I could find on the US market so far.

There are a lot of subtypes of GABAa receptors, not all agonists/allosteric modulators will lower bp.

Indeed, but for now benzos' affinity for GABA-a receptors appears to have evolved into a secondary concern since their direct vasodilator activity at the coronary level is being achieved through their property as adenosine re-uptake inhibitors which is independent from central activity. Peripheral vasodilator effects, on the other hand, appear to be the result of anxiolytic activity which is why these are no more part of my main focus.

I also question how direct the effect of benzodiazepines on vasodilation is. I was under the impression it was related to their effects as muscle relaxants.

See above

I don't see how encouraging the use of dependency forming drugs to mask the bad effects intrinsic to certain poorly designed RC stimulants is 'harm reduction', but to each his own I guess.

I hope I have answered, or at least properly addressed some of your concerns in this regard. Perhaps my initial use of an overpowered benzo that was not ideally suited with regards to the stated and constantly evolving objective gave the false impression that I am promoting double-dependency but that is not the case. I used what I had on hand and extrapolated certain results using personal experience, known benzodiazepine pharmacology, and common sense.

 

[Kilfer]

Not everyone likes stimulants; it's okay not to take them.

It's perfectly okay lol. Personally I don't drink and very few people tell me it's not okay. To each their own poison.

 

[Zeds(NCO2CH2CH3)2]

Kilfer,

Your goals are very thought out but if you could step back from this with me a second please.

Many confuse vasoconstriction for anxiety albeit that they are connected somewhat there is a blatant difference.

All stimulants(generalizing I know) tend to affect the cholinergic system and produce spasmodic effects, - muscle tension etc. This coupled with rapid thinking can lead one to believe your heart rate is high.

My goal is to remind you that unless you are measuring your blood pressure with a cuff. Before and after temperament dosage then we cannot accurately gauge the effect of temazepam.

Albeit many GABA drugs are adenosine reup take inhibitors you did not list the inhibition values of temazepam. It's most likely very poor but dues some due help by a secondary effect.

MAIN GOAL: actually obtain blood pressure cuff and measure bp daily for two weeks at intervals during for basal rhythm and for 3,4dichloro methylphenidate rhythm then for temazepam +3,4dichloro methylphenidate and record all the data.

You could be hypertensive as is and this could be barely negating that so in the interest of harm reduction go measure your values...
Zedsdead

 

[lyricabuddy]

Im wondering how Lyrica Compares To Benzos In Terms Of Vasodialation And anti-Hypertensive Effects Because In Terms Of Chilling Me Out While getting The Most Euphoric Response From sTims I Found It FAR superior To Any Benzo In Conjunction With Stims. Not Only Did It Kill Any AnxietY Just As Well If Not Better Than Benzos (Because It Put Me In A Positive Mindset Vs Just Being More Sedated), But I Found It ACtually Amplified The Euphoria From Stims. Sorry For The Cap My Phone Does This For Some reason

 

[Kilfer]

Im wondering how Lyrica Compares To Benzos In Terms Of Vasodialation And anti-Hypertensive Effects Because In Terms Of Chilling Me Out While getting The Most Euphoric Response From sTims I Found It FAR superior To Any Benzo In Conjunction With Stims. Not Only Did It Kill Any AnxietY Just As Well If Not Better Than Benzos (Because It Put Me In A Positive Mindset Vs Just Being More Sedated), But I Found It ACtually Amplified The Euphoria From Stims. Sorry For The Cap My Phone Does This For Some reason

Pregabalin's parent compound gabapentin binds to the adenosine I receptor so we may tentatively infer that some measure of coronary vasodilation maybe achieved independently from the systemic vasodilation triggered by the CNS activity of gabapentin which appears to result in some level of sedation. Despite its name gabapentin shows little affinity for the GABA receptors so I'm not familiar with the manner in which it achieves its sedative-anxiolytic action. Whether or not pregabalin itself possesses all those properties is not clear to me.

An indication of sufficient adenosine re-uptake inhibition activity would be the relief of tightness in the chess at a sub-therapeutic dosage. If this only occurs when anxiolytic effect is achieved then it's most likely the result of systemic muscle relaxant activity causing vasodilation. The latter would imply you cannot achieve relief from vasoconstriction without triggering anxiolytic and/or sedative activity. If this is the case you still might find this better than using benzos due to the considerably weaker sedative properties of pregabalin when compared with benzos taken at therapeutic dosage.

From the wording of your post it seems you are enjoying the more subdued anxiolytic 'buzz' provided by Lyrica over that of benzos. This may be an avenue for those who are not simply seeking relief from stimulant-induced vasoconstriction without any perceptible CNS depressant activity occurring. So far a baby-dose of a benzo appears quite promising but far more self-experimentation remains to be conducted. Initially niacin was being considered but proved unsuited for anyone intending to use it in a workplace or school setting where dizziness, profuse sweating and pronounced lobsterism may be detrimental to social interaction.

 

[sekio]

An indication of sufficient adenosine re-uptake inhibition activity would be the relief of tightness in the chess at a sub-therapeutic dosage.

That's not exclusively indicative of adenosine reuptake inhibition though, a lot of other mechanisms can cause this...

 

[Kilfer]

That's not exclusively indicative of adenosine reuptake inhibition though, a lot of other mechanisms can cause this...

You are absolutely correct, I should have formulated that statement by saying something like "a possible indication of sufficient adenosine re-uptake inhibition..." as I did not mean to convey it was a definite indication. That said if the removal of perceivable central sedative activity or at least their lowering to a negligible level by way of benzodiazepine dosage reduction does not impede non-psychoactive physiological effects then at least adenosine-related activity should be easier to assay unless some unforeseen factor comes into play... which I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

It's a work in progress at the early stages but one step forward was completed yesterday with the acquisition of a blood pressure meter from a pharmacy. A pretty basic unit with the inflatable cuff hooked to a small plastic box with digital readouts and a stethoscope. I still have only a vague idea of how to use to use it despite having it done to me countless times -especially the stethoscope part- as I have only started to glance over the rather comprehensive online manuals. I now regret the lack of attention paid to my neurologist father's tools of the trade when I was a teenager.

Next comes the securing of a reasonable supply of 2mg diazepam tablets which is the weakest benzo formulation commercially available in the US, at least it's the weakest I could come up with. Still working on how to secure a prescription for such a weak dosage without raising eyebrows. It's kind of surreal having to deal with a drug's extra-low potency as the main obstacle to procurement.

 

[ebola?]

You really need some sort of adenosine reuptake inhibitor (or agonist) to test whether our theoretical predictions even pan out in vivo in principle.

ebola

 

[Kilfer]

You really need some sort of adenosine reuptake inhibitor (or agonist) to test whether our theoretical predictions even pan out in vivo in principle.

"Some sort" is the right term since there appears to be no known commercial drug with near-exclusive selective adenosine A1 receptor agonist activity. The only chemicals that seem to fit the criteria would be [3H]-Cyclopentyladenosine (aka CPA), an N6-substituted analog of adenosine iself, and its derivatives. These esoteric molecules are so far only used for in vitro research on rats. All out of my reach and out of my league to say the least:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00511410


The acceptable alternatives are actual and preferably relatively common drugs that would show a higher affinity for the A1 receptor over other sites but at the same time be devoid of CNS depressant activity similar to benzodiazepines and other sedative such as carisoprodol, barbiturates and nonbenzodiazepines and yet still produce coronary arterial wall relaxing as the means to achieve vasodilator effects. So far I have failed to identify a proper candidate but working on it. The closest contender so far is cyclobenzaprine but it's not exactly a stellar choice.

 

[vicapro]

Back to clonidine vs benzos for vasoconstriction; benzos may make you feel like they are helping the physical symptoms of vasoconstriction, but in the case of serious vasoconstriction due to overdose or any overdose on a stimulant clonidine is much more effective at preventing serious stimulant od complications such as stroke, cardiac arrest, and gangrene related to serious vascular related issues.

 

[Kilfer]

Back to clonidine vs benzos for vasoconstriction; benzos may make you feel like they are helping the physical symptoms of vasoconstriction, but in the case of serious vasoconstriction due to overdose or any overdose on a stimulant clonidine is much more effective at preventing serious stimulant od complications such as stroke, cardiac arrest, and gangrene related to serious vascular related issues.

Worry not, I have a well stocked kit for emergencies.

This is simply about the relief of moderate discomfort with the least possible disruption of still-ongoing positive stim effects.

EDIT Hmm... just inventoried the "well stocked" contents of the kit and looks like attrition by expiry date is depleting essential reserves:

-Catapres 0.2mg 20 tablets (still good) Keeper
-Ample quantities of Ativan 2mg scripted to me for PRN daytime sedation (20/month) but very seldom used on myself: Keeper
-Etizolam powder from 2111. Need to find 0.001g scale for it, stuff too costly to throw out. Keeper
-Olanzapine 5mg tablets x 10. RC stims user never leaves home without those. Near-instant stim buzzkill, lifesaver
-1 vial "Teva" temazepam 15mg caps. Carried from home for experimental purposes.
-US Navy first aid kit old but definite keeper:

Anything obvious missing? USN First Aid Kit contains the usual essential even a syringe, for insulin I assume. I insulin ampule present.

 

[Zeds(NCO2CH2CH3)2]

Kilfner albeit that benzo may provide some anxiety relief we have explained how poorly founded this whole schema is... You need to measure bp.. Most likely yours is normal on the stimulant..

I'm sure others would agree this is not harm reduction anymore and the thread needs to be locked. Helping you self-titrate on benzos is serious business. Try clonidine.. Measure your bp first..

 

[Kilfer]

Kilfner albeit that benzo may provide some anxiety relief we have explained how poorly founded this whole schema is... You need to measure bp.. Most likely yours is normal on the stimulant..

If you had followed the updates you would have noticed that I have acquired a BP meter as per your suggestion

I'm sure others would agree this is not harm reduction anymore and the thread needs to be locked. Helping you self-titrate on benzos is serious business. Try clonidine.. Measure your bp first..

I have Catapres tablets in my emergency kit. As for locking the thread you shouldn't worry too much as it will quickly sink below the horizon until I can secure proper benzo dosage required for the purpose, which could take a month or more. Have finally found that the lowest available strength benzo availabale in the US is not diazepam 2mg but Chlordiazepoxide (Librium) 0.5mg. I can barely feel Librium 25mg so 5 times less must be barely discernible on an adult with moderate benzo tolerance.

Have a nice one.

 

[VitamaN]

AH FUCK im sorry bud. Im hooked on klons as well and it's fucking terrible. Tapering is so damn hard. I'm sorry you have to hit the street to cop a short term benzo to combat a long acting benzos w/d.

 

[Stonerhenge]

Why not just add quercetin or ginkgo? These are vasodialators.

 

[Ninae]

Yes, Valium is what I was put on after I was taken in an ambulance after an overdose of RC stimulants and was close to a stroke/heart attack. I also used benzos with other stimulants, especially MXE when it was available that was a special combination, to get a pleasurable high.

I'm a downer person and hate stimulants alone, but mixed with downers, like benzos or opiates they can give you a more energetic and productive high. They can give you a high used together even if they can't alone. But keep in mind, it's a dangerous combination. Basically a kind of "speed-ball" (even Kratom + Coffee).