STANZ offers full safety code for party pills

[Mr Blonde]

^

Do you ever get worried that the gangs who make their money off meth are going to come find you one day?

Seriously though, I think what you are doing is a fantastic thing and I hope that your work in NZ becomes a beacon for drug policy across the world...hopefully in Oz as well!

 

[Infinite Jest]

The one study that showed BZP was so dangerous was SLAMMED by all independent peer reviewers and it is for THIS reason that BZP is NOT being banned here this year. The ban does not have the support of many politicians in the major parties, and many on this select committee were visibly uncomfortable when they heard about the impact it would have and the dodginess of the evidence of harm.

Really? I thought the only reason the amendment to the MODA didn't pass was that they ran out of time before the House rose - because they were too busy trying to pass the revised Electoral Finance Bill?

Is the ban not going through at all? (Or do you just mean 'not being banned in 2007'?).

Love those pics

 

[rulerofthecosmos]

The statement you refer to is talking about a change in DEMAND for methamphetamine. Not usage, and not that we would decrease our usage of meth per capita compared to other countries, I can't help what Australians do or Americans do etc. Not yet anyway!

My statement implies that DEMAND for methamphetamine was at one level, and then at a later time the DEMAND for methamphetamine was at a lower level.

do you have any links to the papers etc that support your above claim??
beause im pretty sure i was reading an article online last week that stated that in new zealand over the past 10 years the demand,supply and usage of methamphetamine has skyrocketed!!!!
dont demand, supply and usage pretty much go hand in hand anyway??

this link has some relevant info although i couldnt get exact figures for meth

http://www.justice.govt.nz/pubs/reports/2004/conviction-sentencing-2003-04/prosecutions.html

 

[starboy]

Really? I thought the only reason the amendment to the MODA didn't pass was that they ran out of time before the House rose - because they were too busy trying to pass the revised Electoral Finance Bill?

Is the ban not going through at all? (Or do you just mean 'not being banned in 2007'?).

Love those pics

If it had support it would have happened under urgency.

Look here on last night's news Metiria Turei from the Green Party also alludes to the fact that Anderton not only lacks support form Green, Act and even the Maori Party (who want to ban alcohol and tobacco, very telling) but also that he may lack support from within "his own caucus."

http://www.tv3.co.nz/Andertonblames...615/cat/87/Default.aspx?video?articleID=41615

Ruler, I said I am not going to go lookin up refs for this thread, the IDMS and the other shore study are all published at www.shore.ac.nz, you dig them out or go look at www.ndp.govt.nz and the Victoria Uni one is by Kate Bryson, google it, look here she is talking to Capital Tmes

However, P was a very unpopular alternative to party pills, Ms Bryson said.

"Users of BZP-based drugs were far more likely to turn to ecstasy if party pills are banned."

One-third of party pill users said they would try ecstasy if given the chance, but 85.6 per cent said they would not try P or, if they had tried it, would not use it again.

In addition, respondents classed P as the most dangerous drug and placed it on the same level as heroin.

"When I asked users what they would do when the pills are banned the majority said they would use illegal drugs and will try and buy the party pills on the black market."

"To check whether there would be a demand for black market BZP party pills after the ban takes effect, participants were asked whether they would try and obtain illegal BZP party pills. Thirty-four participants said they would actively seek illegal BZP party pills after they were banned," says Bryson.
"And most participants were prepared to pay more for illegal BZP party pills."

PARTY pills are not a gateway drug to P, research shows.
While many party pill users also take illegal drugs, P is “incredibly unpopular,” says Victoria University researcher Kate Bryson.
However the ban may lead to an increased demand for E.
“Very few party pill users use P, and even fewer want to try it,” says Bryson, a PHD student at the School of Psychology.

“While it was suggested a ban would result in an increase in P or methamphetamine use, the results suggest this is unlikely. The majority of participants said they wouldn’t use it. The illegal substance most frequently talked about in the study was ecstasy,” she said. More than half of the participants said they would be prepared to shop for party pills on a black market if they were banned, and would be willing to pay more.

“It’s not all illegal drugs people would turn to, either. Nearly half the participants said they would drink more alcohol (if) party pills are banned,” Ms Bryson said.

Not all the research supports my theories, I am happy to be proven wrong and to change tack if need be, I have totally withdrawn from industry at some points but I think it can do more good than harm at the moment so sticking with it.

If you look around you will find her study online or I might put it up later if there are no copyright issues, I do have christmas shopping to deal with so ..



OH and NO I think gangsters know that they need to pick their game up, people don't like their P cos it is crappy - not because I told them not to buy it.

If gangsters want to follow the research they will realise that the demand is increasing for MDMA, so they should either go hook up a decent supply chain from Asia or Eastern Europe, or work out how to methylaminate MDP2P, sure it takes a bit more nouse than hydriodic reduction of pseudofed but it shouldn't be THAT hard to find somebody who can crank it out then everybody is happy, yeah?

 

[Infinite Jest]

^
Re the Kate Bryson study: most NZ universities are digitizing Masters/PhD papers and making them freely available online over the next few years. I'll see if her one is up yet.

[edit: no].

 

[rulerofthecosmos]

However, P was a very unpopular alternative to party pills, Ms Bryson said.

"Users of BZP-based drugs were far more likely to turn to ecstasy if party pills are banned."

One-third of party pill users said they would try ecstasy if given the chance, but 85.6 per cent said they would not try P or, if they had tried it, would not use it again.

In addition, respondents classed P as the most dangerous drug and placed it on the same level as heroin.

What a load of shit!!!!!
The statement above should read party pills are a very unpopular alternative to "P"!!!!
I no too many current and former HEAVY meth users, and i no of NONE that have kicked there habit or have found that using BZP or any other party pill is a viable alternative to amphetamines!!!!
is there any evidence to the contrary???
Wasnt this the main reason BZP based pills were 1st released onto the NZ market,as an alternative or replacement that could be used by meth users/addicts????or was this just a marketing ploy????
those meth users that i no that have tried BZP based "party pills" were very dissapointed with them and say that they just felt dirty and agitated and the feeling would not work well as a replacement for meth!!!

it also states "When I asked users what they would do when the pills are banned the majority said they would use illegal drugs and will try and buy the party pills on the black market." ....so hasnt this just created a new blackmarket substance that will most likely be sold at a huge mark up by organised crime syndicates etc and a whole heap more customers for there illicit drugs as well??those same crime syndicates that are already selling meth,ecstacy, marijuana etc etc etc,meaning that these msotly young innocent 'party pill' users are now going to be forced to buy from these hardened criminals???
i realise this is a strong arguement for keeping 'party pills' legal, but dont you think that if the 'party pills' had not been sold so openly to the public that this would even be a problem???
i feel that the introduction of so called 'herbals' has done nothing but create a far greater market place for illicit drugs in the future!!!!!


these are just my personal observations and opinions,and I am more than willing to be proven wrong with unbias scientific evidence...!!!

 

[Infinite Jest]

^
One thing I will point out about Bryson's study is that her sample were NZ university students. I suspect that those users would be more likely to take MDMA than meth, though I could be wrong.

I've heard anecdotal evidence that some users have turned from meth to BZP. Someone I know runs a store that sells (among other things) party pills. He told me he had a woman come into his shop crying, because party pills were being banned - saying that her partner had been a violent and abusive meth user, had switched to party pills, and had calmed down. She was scared he'd go back to P and again become violent. OK, that's only one person, but I bet there are others.

(Interestingly, the shop owner was previously very anti-drugs, and has now changed opinion to the extent of being angry at the proposed ban).

 

[rulerofthecosmos]

^^yeah im not saying that NO 1 has or will use BZP as a replacement to meth...!!!
im just saying that out of at least 50 people i am/was friends with and have met that are/were heavy meth users none have found BZP a viable replacement!!!
i think the question should also be asked as to why some1 with a serious stimulant addiction should be being told that BZP is a safe viable alternative to meth!!!???
isnt this just like a crutch??shouldnt the advise be to seek treatment at a rehab centre by trained professionals???i no heroin users are given methodone to help get clean from H, but that is like a last option and is more tightly regulated....

"(Interestingly, the shop owner was previously very anti-drugs, and has now changed opinion to the extent of being angry at the proposed ban)."

no offence to you or your friend, but i bet he is pissed at the proposed ban, because this is now a multi-million dollar a year industry and im sure even if he has his fingers in a small piece of the pie he is making good/easy money!!!!
i also have mates that sell "party pills", but most are just interested in making money and as much as people would like to think they are doing good etc, money is the driving force!!!!

 

[starboy]

Yeah, Ruler, I ain't going to argue with you, but just to hold up a mirror for you to look into, you asked for the research references and you got them, now you want to criticise the research, and InfiniteJest is saying sure that the sample size of Bryson's study is Uni students, but can you just realise that you are comparing all this data to a sample size of people in your immediate network?

I used to do the same and say "Amongst the community of people who went to nightclubs in K Road Auckland from 1998-2003 people I know and chatted to used to snort speed then started smoking P then the scene got really violent, we backed off to BZP (not the high TFMPP pills sold in 2007) and everything was sweet so P became unpopular."

I went to govt with these anecdotes, which are not unlike your own and learned that I can't extrapolate from my own personal experience out to National trends, so there ya go.

Some people say BZP normalised drugs use in NZ, I think it just destigmatised it. To measure this you go back to the figures over the years - I think you'll see NZ have always consumed a lot of drugs.

 

[starboy]

^^yeah im not saying that NO 1 has or will use BZP as a replacement to meth...!!!

We ran a helpline staffed by well qualified professionals which did precisely this, took people with meth binge issues, and got them to susbstitute with BZP and then monitored them, 80% had some positive change in their life, there was a mixture of techniques employed, but BZP was a useful tool in the process.

You need to be aware that in general amphetamine addicts do not present to treatment services so there is some merit in outreach operations that empower them to make the choice as a consumer.

They aren't habitual like opiate users so trickier to put on a program, they are more episodic. In my opinion they need culturally relevant centres within their whanau groups ideally which allow them to make a consumer choice.

BZP won't work as well for people at full blown heavy meth addict stages, which might be what you are talking about but for general recreational meth users which were the bulk of users coming from the nineties it replaced it as "stimulant of choice."

i also have mates that sell "party pills", but most are just interested in making money and as much as people would like to think they are doing good etc, money is the driving force!!!!

Interestingly enough even many people who have nothing to gain are still equally annoyed at the legislation and the tricky way govt went about it.

 

[rulerofthecosmos]

Yeah, Ruler, I ain't going to argue with you, but just to hold up a mirror for you to look into, you asked for the research references and you got them, now you want to criticise the research, and InfiniteJest is saying sure that the sample size of Bryson's study is Uni students, but can you just realise that you are comparing all this data to a sample size of people in your immediate network?

I used to do the same and say "Amongst the community of people who went to nightclubs in K Road Auckland from 1998-2003 people I know and chatted to used to snort speed then started smoking P then the scene got really violent, we backed off to BZP (not the high TFMPP pills sold in 2007) and everything was sweet so P became unpopular."

I went to govt with these anecdotes, which are not unlike your own and learned that I can't extrapolate from my own personal experience out to National trends, so there ya go.

Some people say BZP normalised drugs use in NZ, I think it just destigmatised it. To measure this you go back to the figures over the years - I think you'll see NZ have always consumed a lot of drugs.

yea i hear what ya saying starboy,but infinite jest raised a fair point that the study targeted mostly uni students....to create a total stereotype Uni students generally have very little expendable cash, are mostly around the 18-30 year age group, are educated and alot are from middle to upper class familys.
These people i believe generally are less likely to be heavy meth or ecstacy users, and are most likely just looking to use any cheap crappy drugs especially if they are available at the corner dairy !!!!
This study therefore gives a far from accurate conclusion!!!
in fact i would say that the people i know and are friends with represent a far broader range of age, education, and income.

Why is the study not targeting those who already use meth and ecstacy???
i thought that the whole argument for keeping BZP legal was because it can or is used by meth addicts as a substitute???
If this is not the argument, then what is????

 

[Splatt]

what was the BZP dose? was it daily and did it taper?
were there much relapses wherew people combined meth and bzp and had bad effects?

 

[starboy]

If this is not the argument, then what is????

Simple - PROHIBITION POLICY HAS PROVEN TO BE AN ABJECT FAILURE EVERY TIME WE ATTEMPTED IT, LET'S STOP NOW AND TRY SOMETHING ELSE!

Imagine a continuum of regulation, at one end is

PROHIBITION: Ban it, punish people caught using it. (like we have with meth now)

at the other end is

LEGALISE IT: No regulation or control whatsoever. (like we had with alcohol in 1912)

In my opinion BOTH these extremes actually suck!

in between you have different levels of regulatory control, from "R18" to retailer licensing (like with alcohol) to pharmacy (retailer requires license and degree in pharmacy) to prescription med (distributor requires MD)

You can fine tune it to get the sweet spot.

The argument is that PROHIBITION increases risk level and is counter productive, but LEGALISE IT with no regulation also has problems.

The solution is to find the level of regulation which suitably manages any risks associated with the availability using all the risk management tools at our disposal or developing some more.

e.g. we create a new qualification in clinical A & D assessment and some from pharmacy and some motivational interviewing / counselling or whatever and borrow some bits from liquor licensing and put that person into a licensed retail outlet between the consumer and the drugs. There are no end of tweaks you can make to a system once you progress out of prohibition and admit that it didn't work.

...

SPLATT: I don't have all the data. I know it was a lower dose BZP ONLY product. (No TFMPP) The Psychologist said he gave it to them to put in their pocket and a typical report was "I knew that if I wanted to use, then I had something to use instead, and as a result I relaxed and didn't have to use anything."

He also supplied a supplement of upstream neurotransmitter precursors (L-Tyrosine, L-Tryptophan etc) to assist in blocking craving. One of the guys on teh team had done a PhD thesis on this in Hawaii during the days of ice up there.

I'd expect relapse rates and all the rest, hardcore meth addiction is a bitch once you get down to that level, just saying it is documented that it worked for some people. The social function that meth met in their lives could be met by others and that is why we chose bzp, cos Bye et al and Campbell et al papers form european journal clinical pharmacology 1973 said it could substitute for amphetamine in addicts.