mr peabody
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2016
- Messages
- 5,714
Part 1 - "The Discovery of LSD" can be found here: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/...scovery-of-LSD
Part 2 - "Ololiuqui, Salvia, Psilocybin, Kykeon" can be found here: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...ann-Part-2-Ololiuqui-Salvia-Psilocybin-Kykeon
Grof: I would now like to move away from these cultural and historical explorations and go back to chemistry. Although pharmacology is not your primary interest, I would like to ask you a question about the mechanism of the action of LSD. There does not seem to be unanimity as to why LSD is psychoactive and there are several competing hypotheses about it. Do you have any ideas in this regard?
Hofmann: We have done some research that is related to this question. We labeled LSD with radioactive carbon, C14. That makes it possible to follow its metabolic fate in the organism. Strangely enough, we found, of course in animals, that 90% of the LSD is excreted very quickly and only 10% of it goes into the brain. And in the brain it goes into the hypothalamus and that is where the emotional functions are located. This corresponds also to the fact that it is primarily the emotional sphere that is stimulated by LSD. The rational spheres are rather inhibited. And, of course, it is not LSD that produces these deep psychic changes. The action of LSD can be understood only in terms of its interaction with the chemical processes in the brain which underlie the psychic functions.
Since LSD is a substance, its action can be described only in terms of interaction with other substances and with the structures in the brain, the receptors, and so on. One of the popular hypotheses was, for example, the ‘serotonin hypothesis’ of the British researchers Woolley and Shaw. It was found that LSD is a very specific and strong inhibitor of serotonin in some biological systems. And since serotonin plays a very important role in the chemistry of neurophysiological functions in the brain, this was seen as the mechanism underlying its psychological effects.
Since this antagonism between LSD and serotonin was very strong and specific, our pharmacologist was very interested to find out, if there are serotonin antagonists without hallucinogenic effect. This was not only an interesting theoretical question, but a matter of some practical interest, because serotonin is involved in the mechanism of migraine headaches and in certain information processes. A serotonin antagonist without psychedelic effects could be used as a medicament.
Grof: This was the reason why 2-brominated LSD, a strong serotonin antagonist without psychedelic effects, was so important?
Hofmann: We made all kinds of LSD derivatives. Also among them was the 2-brominated LSD, which turned out to have strong anti-serotonin effect, but without any psychedelic effects. After that finding, the ‘serotonin hypothesis’ could not be sustained any more. Another problem was that the serotonin antagonism is not studied in the brain, but on peripheral biological preparations.
Grof: Then there is, of course, the complex question of the blood/brain barrier; which of the substances that show peripheral antagonism are actually allowed to enter the brain?
Hofmann: Yes. LSD also has effects on other transmitters, such as dopamine and adrenaline and it is very complicated. For this reason, LSD was a very useful and influential tool in brain research and has remained that until this very day.
Grof: I am very interested in one particular hypothesis concerning the effects of LSD. It was formulated by Dr. Harold Abramson and his team in New York City. On the basis of some animal experiments, particularly with the Siamese fighting fish (Betta splendens), they came to the conclusion that the most relevant aspect of the LSD effect involves the enzymatic transfer of oxygen on the subcellular level. For me this was interesting, because it could account for the similarity between the LSD effects and the experiences associated with the process of dying. And there might also be connections to the effects of the holotropic breathwork that my wife Christina and I have developed. Unfortunately, it seems that this research remained limited to that one paper; I have not seen any additional supportive evidence for this hypothesis.
Hofmann: There was another hypothesis, where the emphasis was, I believe, on the effect of LSD on the degradation of adrenaline and noradrenaline leading toabnormal oxidation products (Hoffer and Osmond’s adrenochrome and adrenolutine hypothesis). But none of this has been confirmed and the question of the effective mechanisms of LSD is still open. In addition, it is important to realize that there is an enormous leap from chemistry to psychological experience. There are limits to what this basic chemical background can tell us about consciousness.
Grof: If I understand you correctly, you feel, very much like I do myself, that even if we could explain all the biochemical and neurophysiological changes in the neurons, we are still confronted with this quantum leap from biochemical and electrical processes to consciousness that seems unbridgeable.
Hofmann: Yes, it is the basic problem of reality. We can study various psychic functions and also the more primitive sensory functions, such as seeing, hearing, and so on, which constitute our image of our everyday world. They have a material side and the psychic side. And that is a gap which you cannot explain. We can follow the metabolism in the brain, we can measure the biochemical and neurophysiological changes, electric potentials, and so on. These are material and energetic processes. But matter and electric current are quite a different thing, quite a different level, than the psychic experience. Even our seeing and other sensory functions already involve the same problem. We must realize that there is a gap which probably can never be overcome or be explained. We can study material processes and various processes at the energetic level, that is what we can do as natural scientists. And then there comes something quite different, the psychic experience, which remains a mystery.
Grof: There seem to be two radically different approaches to the problem of brain/consciousness relationship as it manifests in psychedelic sessions. The first one is the traditional scientific approach that explains the spectrum of the LSD experience as a release of information that is stored in the repositories of our brain. It suggests that the entire process is contained inside of our cranium and the experiences are created by combinations and interactions of engrams that have accumulated in our memory banks in this lifetime.
A radical alternative to this monistic materialistic view was suggested by Aldous Huxley. After some personal experiences with LSD and mescaline, he started seeing the brain more like a “reducing valve,” that normally protects us against a vast cosmic input of information, which would otherwise flood and overload our everyday consciousness. In this view, the function of the brain is to reduce all the available information and lock us into a limited experience of the world. In this view, LSD frees us from this restriction and opens us to a much larger experience.
Hofmann: I agree with this model of Huxley’s that in psychedelic sessions the function of the brain is opened. In general, we have limited capacity to transform all the stimuli which we receive from the outer world in the form of optical, acoustic, and tactile stimuli, and so on. We have a limited capacity to transfer this information so that it can come into consciousness. Under the influence of psychedelic substances, the valve is opened and an enormous input of outer stimuli can now come in and stimulate our brain. This then gives rise to this overwhelming experience.
Grof: Have you actually personally met Aldous Huxley?
Hofmann: Yes, I have met him two times and we had very good, very important discussions. He gave me his book Island, which had come out just before he died. In it he describes an old culture on an island, which is trying to make a synthesis between its own spiritual tradition and modern technology brought in by an American. This culture used ritually something called moksha medicine and moksha was a mushroom that brought enlightenment. Moksha was given only three times in the lifetime of each individual. The first time it was during the initiation in a puberty rite, the second time in the middle of life, and the third time at death, in the final stage of life. And when Aldous gave me his book, he wrote: “To Dr. Albert Hofmann, the original discoverer of the moksha medicine.” I am very proud to have this book, Island; it is a beautiful book.
Grof: It is interesting that Aldous Huxley actually used LSD to ease his transition at the time of his death.
Hofmann: Yes, after he had died, his widow sent me a copy of a paper. When he was in the process of dying (he was unable to talk because of his cancer of the tongue), he wrote on it: “0.1 milligrams of LSD, subcutaneously.” So his wife gave him the injection of the moksha medicine.
Grof: There is a beautiful description of this situation in her book which is called This Timeless Moment.
Hofmann: Yes, This Timeless Moment, by Laura Huxley.
Grof: I would like to ask you now something very personal. You must have been asked this question a number of times before, I am sure. You have had during your lifetime quite a few psychedelic experiences, some of which you described to us today. It began with the LSD experiences associated with the discovery of LSD, then the experiences during the work on the isolation of the active principles from the magic mushrooms and ololiuqui, the experience in the mushroom ritual with Maria Sabina, the sessions you described in LSD, My Problem Child, and some others. What influence have all these experiences had on you, on your way of being in the world, on your values, on your personal philosophy, and on your scientific world view?
Hofmann: They have changed my life, insofar as they provided me with a new concept about what reality is. Reality became for me a problem after my experience with LSD. Before, I had believed there was only one reality, the reality of everyday life. Just one true reality and the rest was imagination and was not real. But under the influence of LSD, I entered into realities which were as real and even more real than the one of everyday. And I thought about the nature of reality and I got some deeper insights. I analyzed the mechanisms involved in the production of the normal world view that we call the “everyday reality.” What are the factors that constitute it? What is inside and what is outside? What comes from the outside in and what is just inside? I use for this process the metaphor of the sender and the receiver.
The productive sender is the outer world, the external reality including our own body. The receiver is our deep self, the conscious ego, which then transforms the outer stimuli into a psychological experience. It was very helpful for me to see what is really, objectively, outside; something that you cannot change, something that is the same for everybody. And what is produced by me, homemade, what is myself, that which I can change. What is my spiritual inside that can be changed. This possibility to change reality, which exists in everyone, represents the real freedom of every human individual. He has an enormous possibility to change his world view. It helped me enormously in my life to realize what really exists on the outside and what is homemade by me.
Grof: You have a tremendous awareness and sensitivity in regard to ecological issues, for example, the industrial pollution of water and air, the destruction
of nature, the dying of the European forests, and so on. Would you attribute this to your psychedelic sessions, in which you experienced oneness with nature and the interconnected-ness of creation? Do you think that these experiences somehow opened you to this greater ecological awareness, to a sharper sense of what we are doing to nature?
Hofmann: Yes, through my LSD experience and my new picture of reality, I became aware of the wonder of creation, the magnificence of nature and of the animal and plant kingdom. I became very sensitive to what will happen to all this and all of us. I have published and lectured about the main environmental problems we have in Europe and at home in this regard.
Grof: The discovery of LSD has been such an important part of your life and you have also personally experienced what a positive impact this substance can have on us if it is properly used. I would like to ask you: what was your reaction to what happened in the 1960s in the United States?
Hofmann: Well, I was very sorry, really sorry. As I said, I would have never suspected LSD could be misused in such a way. Now I have the feeling that the situation has improved, because you never read in the newspapers about accidents with LSD any more, as it happened in the 1960s practically every day. People who use LSD today know how to use it. Therefore, I hope that the health authorities will get the insight that LSD, if it is used properly, is not a dangerous drug. We actually should not refer to it as drug; this word has a very bad connotation. We should use another name. Psychedelic substances, if they are used in proper ways, are very helpful for mankind.
Grof: You wrote a book entitled LSD, My Problem Child. I heard you say, at the conference, that you hope you might see the day when your problem child will become a desired child again.
Hofmann: I myself will not probably see this day, but it will definitely happen sometime in the future, I am sure. The truth will finally come out and the truth is: If LSD is used in the right way, it is a very important and very useful agent. LSD is no longer playing a bad role in the drug scene and psychiatrists are again trying to submit their proposals for research with this substance to the health authorities. I hope that LSD will again become available in the normal way, for the medical profession. Then it could play the role it really should, a beneficial role.
Grof: Do you have a vision for the future concerning this, an idea of how you would like LSD to be used?
Hofmann: We have a kind of model for it in Eleusis and also in the so-called primitive societies where psychedelic substances are used. LSD should be treated as a sacred drug and receive corresponding preparation, preparation of quite a different kind than other psychotropic agents. It is one kind of thing if you have a pain-relieving substance or some euphoriant and (another to) have an agent that engages the very essence of human beings, their consciousness.
Our very essence is Absolute Consciousness; without an I, without the consciousness of every individual, nothing really exists. And this very center, this core of the human being is influenced by these kinds of substances. Therefore, excuse me for repeating myself, these are sacred substances. Because, what is sacred if not the consciousness of the human being, and something which activates it must be handled with reverence and with extreme caution.
Grof: Many of us who have experienced psychedelics feel very much, like you do, that they are sacred tools and that, if they are properly used, they open spiritual awareness. They also engender ecological sensitivity, reverence for life, and capacity for peaceful cooperation with other people and other species. I think, in the kind of world we have today, transformation of humanity in this direction might well be our only real hope for survival. I believe that it is essential for our planetary future to develop tools that can change the consciousness which has created the crisis that we are in.
Hofmann: That certainly would be a major step in the right direction. We need a new concept of reality and a new set of values for things to change in a positive direction. LSD could help to generate such a new concept.
Grof: I would like to thank you for giving up your time of leisure on this beautiful day and for coming here to be with us and share your life experiences. I really appreciate it very much and, I am sure, so does everyone else in this room.
Hofmann: Thank you for inviting me to Esalen. I really enjoy this very beautiful landscape. It is so wonderful to be here and to experience the atmosphere in this institute with old friends and colleagues. It has been a great experience for me. Thank you, too.
End of interview
Part 2 - "Ololiuqui, Salvia, Psilocybin, Kykeon" can be found here: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...ann-Part-2-Ololiuqui-Salvia-Psilocybin-Kykeon
Grof: I would now like to move away from these cultural and historical explorations and go back to chemistry. Although pharmacology is not your primary interest, I would like to ask you a question about the mechanism of the action of LSD. There does not seem to be unanimity as to why LSD is psychoactive and there are several competing hypotheses about it. Do you have any ideas in this regard?
Hofmann: We have done some research that is related to this question. We labeled LSD with radioactive carbon, C14. That makes it possible to follow its metabolic fate in the organism. Strangely enough, we found, of course in animals, that 90% of the LSD is excreted very quickly and only 10% of it goes into the brain. And in the brain it goes into the hypothalamus and that is where the emotional functions are located. This corresponds also to the fact that it is primarily the emotional sphere that is stimulated by LSD. The rational spheres are rather inhibited. And, of course, it is not LSD that produces these deep psychic changes. The action of LSD can be understood only in terms of its interaction with the chemical processes in the brain which underlie the psychic functions.
Since LSD is a substance, its action can be described only in terms of interaction with other substances and with the structures in the brain, the receptors, and so on. One of the popular hypotheses was, for example, the ‘serotonin hypothesis’ of the British researchers Woolley and Shaw. It was found that LSD is a very specific and strong inhibitor of serotonin in some biological systems. And since serotonin plays a very important role in the chemistry of neurophysiological functions in the brain, this was seen as the mechanism underlying its psychological effects.
Since this antagonism between LSD and serotonin was very strong and specific, our pharmacologist was very interested to find out, if there are serotonin antagonists without hallucinogenic effect. This was not only an interesting theoretical question, but a matter of some practical interest, because serotonin is involved in the mechanism of migraine headaches and in certain information processes. A serotonin antagonist without psychedelic effects could be used as a medicament.
Grof: This was the reason why 2-brominated LSD, a strong serotonin antagonist without psychedelic effects, was so important?
Hofmann: We made all kinds of LSD derivatives. Also among them was the 2-brominated LSD, which turned out to have strong anti-serotonin effect, but without any psychedelic effects. After that finding, the ‘serotonin hypothesis’ could not be sustained any more. Another problem was that the serotonin antagonism is not studied in the brain, but on peripheral biological preparations.
Grof: Then there is, of course, the complex question of the blood/brain barrier; which of the substances that show peripheral antagonism are actually allowed to enter the brain?
Hofmann: Yes. LSD also has effects on other transmitters, such as dopamine and adrenaline and it is very complicated. For this reason, LSD was a very useful and influential tool in brain research and has remained that until this very day.
Grof: I am very interested in one particular hypothesis concerning the effects of LSD. It was formulated by Dr. Harold Abramson and his team in New York City. On the basis of some animal experiments, particularly with the Siamese fighting fish (Betta splendens), they came to the conclusion that the most relevant aspect of the LSD effect involves the enzymatic transfer of oxygen on the subcellular level. For me this was interesting, because it could account for the similarity between the LSD effects and the experiences associated with the process of dying. And there might also be connections to the effects of the holotropic breathwork that my wife Christina and I have developed. Unfortunately, it seems that this research remained limited to that one paper; I have not seen any additional supportive evidence for this hypothesis.
Hofmann: There was another hypothesis, where the emphasis was, I believe, on the effect of LSD on the degradation of adrenaline and noradrenaline leading toabnormal oxidation products (Hoffer and Osmond’s adrenochrome and adrenolutine hypothesis). But none of this has been confirmed and the question of the effective mechanisms of LSD is still open. In addition, it is important to realize that there is an enormous leap from chemistry to psychological experience. There are limits to what this basic chemical background can tell us about consciousness.
Grof: If I understand you correctly, you feel, very much like I do myself, that even if we could explain all the biochemical and neurophysiological changes in the neurons, we are still confronted with this quantum leap from biochemical and electrical processes to consciousness that seems unbridgeable.
Hofmann: Yes, it is the basic problem of reality. We can study various psychic functions and also the more primitive sensory functions, such as seeing, hearing, and so on, which constitute our image of our everyday world. They have a material side and the psychic side. And that is a gap which you cannot explain. We can follow the metabolism in the brain, we can measure the biochemical and neurophysiological changes, electric potentials, and so on. These are material and energetic processes. But matter and electric current are quite a different thing, quite a different level, than the psychic experience. Even our seeing and other sensory functions already involve the same problem. We must realize that there is a gap which probably can never be overcome or be explained. We can study material processes and various processes at the energetic level, that is what we can do as natural scientists. And then there comes something quite different, the psychic experience, which remains a mystery.
Grof: There seem to be two radically different approaches to the problem of brain/consciousness relationship as it manifests in psychedelic sessions. The first one is the traditional scientific approach that explains the spectrum of the LSD experience as a release of information that is stored in the repositories of our brain. It suggests that the entire process is contained inside of our cranium and the experiences are created by combinations and interactions of engrams that have accumulated in our memory banks in this lifetime.
A radical alternative to this monistic materialistic view was suggested by Aldous Huxley. After some personal experiences with LSD and mescaline, he started seeing the brain more like a “reducing valve,” that normally protects us against a vast cosmic input of information, which would otherwise flood and overload our everyday consciousness. In this view, the function of the brain is to reduce all the available information and lock us into a limited experience of the world. In this view, LSD frees us from this restriction and opens us to a much larger experience.
Hofmann: I agree with this model of Huxley’s that in psychedelic sessions the function of the brain is opened. In general, we have limited capacity to transform all the stimuli which we receive from the outer world in the form of optical, acoustic, and tactile stimuli, and so on. We have a limited capacity to transfer this information so that it can come into consciousness. Under the influence of psychedelic substances, the valve is opened and an enormous input of outer stimuli can now come in and stimulate our brain. This then gives rise to this overwhelming experience.
Grof: Have you actually personally met Aldous Huxley?
Hofmann: Yes, I have met him two times and we had very good, very important discussions. He gave me his book Island, which had come out just before he died. In it he describes an old culture on an island, which is trying to make a synthesis between its own spiritual tradition and modern technology brought in by an American. This culture used ritually something called moksha medicine and moksha was a mushroom that brought enlightenment. Moksha was given only three times in the lifetime of each individual. The first time it was during the initiation in a puberty rite, the second time in the middle of life, and the third time at death, in the final stage of life. And when Aldous gave me his book, he wrote: “To Dr. Albert Hofmann, the original discoverer of the moksha medicine.” I am very proud to have this book, Island; it is a beautiful book.
Grof: It is interesting that Aldous Huxley actually used LSD to ease his transition at the time of his death.
Hofmann: Yes, after he had died, his widow sent me a copy of a paper. When he was in the process of dying (he was unable to talk because of his cancer of the tongue), he wrote on it: “0.1 milligrams of LSD, subcutaneously.” So his wife gave him the injection of the moksha medicine.
Grof: There is a beautiful description of this situation in her book which is called This Timeless Moment.
Hofmann: Yes, This Timeless Moment, by Laura Huxley.
Grof: I would like to ask you now something very personal. You must have been asked this question a number of times before, I am sure. You have had during your lifetime quite a few psychedelic experiences, some of which you described to us today. It began with the LSD experiences associated with the discovery of LSD, then the experiences during the work on the isolation of the active principles from the magic mushrooms and ololiuqui, the experience in the mushroom ritual with Maria Sabina, the sessions you described in LSD, My Problem Child, and some others. What influence have all these experiences had on you, on your way of being in the world, on your values, on your personal philosophy, and on your scientific world view?
Hofmann: They have changed my life, insofar as they provided me with a new concept about what reality is. Reality became for me a problem after my experience with LSD. Before, I had believed there was only one reality, the reality of everyday life. Just one true reality and the rest was imagination and was not real. But under the influence of LSD, I entered into realities which were as real and even more real than the one of everyday. And I thought about the nature of reality and I got some deeper insights. I analyzed the mechanisms involved in the production of the normal world view that we call the “everyday reality.” What are the factors that constitute it? What is inside and what is outside? What comes from the outside in and what is just inside? I use for this process the metaphor of the sender and the receiver.
The productive sender is the outer world, the external reality including our own body. The receiver is our deep self, the conscious ego, which then transforms the outer stimuli into a psychological experience. It was very helpful for me to see what is really, objectively, outside; something that you cannot change, something that is the same for everybody. And what is produced by me, homemade, what is myself, that which I can change. What is my spiritual inside that can be changed. This possibility to change reality, which exists in everyone, represents the real freedom of every human individual. He has an enormous possibility to change his world view. It helped me enormously in my life to realize what really exists on the outside and what is homemade by me.
Grof: You have a tremendous awareness and sensitivity in regard to ecological issues, for example, the industrial pollution of water and air, the destruction
of nature, the dying of the European forests, and so on. Would you attribute this to your psychedelic sessions, in which you experienced oneness with nature and the interconnected-ness of creation? Do you think that these experiences somehow opened you to this greater ecological awareness, to a sharper sense of what we are doing to nature?
Hofmann: Yes, through my LSD experience and my new picture of reality, I became aware of the wonder of creation, the magnificence of nature and of the animal and plant kingdom. I became very sensitive to what will happen to all this and all of us. I have published and lectured about the main environmental problems we have in Europe and at home in this regard.
Grof: The discovery of LSD has been such an important part of your life and you have also personally experienced what a positive impact this substance can have on us if it is properly used. I would like to ask you: what was your reaction to what happened in the 1960s in the United States?
Hofmann: Well, I was very sorry, really sorry. As I said, I would have never suspected LSD could be misused in such a way. Now I have the feeling that the situation has improved, because you never read in the newspapers about accidents with LSD any more, as it happened in the 1960s practically every day. People who use LSD today know how to use it. Therefore, I hope that the health authorities will get the insight that LSD, if it is used properly, is not a dangerous drug. We actually should not refer to it as drug; this word has a very bad connotation. We should use another name. Psychedelic substances, if they are used in proper ways, are very helpful for mankind.
Grof: You wrote a book entitled LSD, My Problem Child. I heard you say, at the conference, that you hope you might see the day when your problem child will become a desired child again.
Hofmann: I myself will not probably see this day, but it will definitely happen sometime in the future, I am sure. The truth will finally come out and the truth is: If LSD is used in the right way, it is a very important and very useful agent. LSD is no longer playing a bad role in the drug scene and psychiatrists are again trying to submit their proposals for research with this substance to the health authorities. I hope that LSD will again become available in the normal way, for the medical profession. Then it could play the role it really should, a beneficial role.
Grof: Do you have a vision for the future concerning this, an idea of how you would like LSD to be used?
Hofmann: We have a kind of model for it in Eleusis and also in the so-called primitive societies where psychedelic substances are used. LSD should be treated as a sacred drug and receive corresponding preparation, preparation of quite a different kind than other psychotropic agents. It is one kind of thing if you have a pain-relieving substance or some euphoriant and (another to) have an agent that engages the very essence of human beings, their consciousness.
Our very essence is Absolute Consciousness; without an I, without the consciousness of every individual, nothing really exists. And this very center, this core of the human being is influenced by these kinds of substances. Therefore, excuse me for repeating myself, these are sacred substances. Because, what is sacred if not the consciousness of the human being, and something which activates it must be handled with reverence and with extreme caution.
Grof: Many of us who have experienced psychedelics feel very much, like you do, that they are sacred tools and that, if they are properly used, they open spiritual awareness. They also engender ecological sensitivity, reverence for life, and capacity for peaceful cooperation with other people and other species. I think, in the kind of world we have today, transformation of humanity in this direction might well be our only real hope for survival. I believe that it is essential for our planetary future to develop tools that can change the consciousness which has created the crisis that we are in.
Hofmann: That certainly would be a major step in the right direction. We need a new concept of reality and a new set of values for things to change in a positive direction. LSD could help to generate such a new concept.
Grof: I would like to thank you for giving up your time of leisure on this beautiful day and for coming here to be with us and share your life experiences. I really appreciate it very much and, I am sure, so does everyone else in this room.
Hofmann: Thank you for inviting me to Esalen. I really enjoy this very beautiful landscape. It is so wonderful to be here and to experience the atmosphere in this institute with old friends and colleagues. It has been a great experience for me. Thank you, too.
End of interview
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