Stability of 4-sub tryptamines frozen in deionized water?

[Thomas Davie]

I've always assumed that the 4 enemies for long term storage of any 'sensitive' chemical are heat, light, moisture and oxygen. Up until now I've always stored my 4-subbed tryptamines as individually weighed doses in microcentrifuge tubes that have been wrapped in tin foil, placed in zip-loc storage with a dessicant pack and then placed in the freezer at -23C for long term storage. When wanting to dose, I would removed one labelled vial and that's it. So far this hasn't ;et me down. It's a bit of work to set up, but elminates the guess work. And as long as you have an analytical balance the accuracy is superb.

I wanted to try something new; a combination of volumetric dosing and frozen liquid samples.

Being aware that some drugs are sensitive to dissolved metal ions I was intending to try distilled deionized water. All of the other equipment I've bought from ebay.

First off, the microcentrifuge tubes are 1.5ml in volume. I filled a number of them with 1.5 ml water using a 1000 uL micropipette and placed a number of them in the freezer, Within about an hour they were all frozen, and 2 days later none had ruptured.

So, this is my idea and I'm looking for feedback.

1) Transfer eg. 250 mg 4-AcO-DMT.fumarate into a 50 ml volumetric flask.
2) Fill to mark with distilled, deionized water (the solubility of this is at least 13 mg/ml from before test), giving a 50 ml solution @ 5mg/ml 4-AcO-DMT.fumarate
3) Transfer contents to beaker and start to fill up microcentrifuge test tubes with either 1.0 ml (5 mg) or 1.5 ml (7.5mg), approximately 30 tubes in all.
3) Freeze and then place in zip-loc storage; one bag with 5mg tubes, and a second bag with 7.5mg tubes.
4) When I want to dose, I remove the appropriate number of tubes from storgae, let them thaw, add them to a drink and dose.
eg

5mg = 5mg
7.5mg = 7.5mg
5mg+5mg = 10.0mg
5mg+7.5mg = 12.6 mg

and so on.


Ok, so this will give me the ability to rapidly and accurately dose at 2.5mg increments from 5.0mg on up. I'm not likely to dose more than 30.0 mg at one time (this would be 4 tubes @ 7.5 mg ).

I'm doing this for a few reasons; 1) I'm as curious as hell even if I end up wasting some compound. 2) I don't always have access to a sub milligram balance, and 3) the most important reason is that I am slowly losing control of my left hand because of arthritis; my right hand is okay....and I weigh samples with my left hand and pipette with my right hand.

So, am I wasting anything I test this with? Is it likely to degrade even with deionized water? Are there improvements to what I propose?

Any ideas or criticisms is very welcome. I will test this within 1 week and I guess I'll find out about stability slowly over the course of the next 3 months or so; but I'm open to anything. I've chosen a fumarate salt because I've found them very soluble in water.

Thanks for reading this

Tom

(Mods, feel free to move, but I posted in PD because I will be trying this with 4-subbed tryptamines).

 

[phuckingnutz]

That shit will last FOR-fucking-EVER.
Sounds like good idea IMO.
Easy and Accurate.

 

[FunctionalOlfactio]

Chemistry is my weak spot. Your title says deionized water. You are also distilling the water? De-ionization and residential reverse osmosis units won't remove some of the harmful chemicals in municipal water. Distillation plus de-ionization should remove most of the bad stuff.

You order your lab accessories from eBay? Don't they require identifying information such as a verified phone number during registration? Check your local laws. Even the most basic lab ware is illegal drug manufacturing paraphernalia in some states and requires a state issued permit.*

*http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RegulatoryServices/narcotics/narcprecursor.htm

 

[Thomas Davie]

Chemistry is my weak spot. Your title says deionized water. You are also distilling the water? De-ionization and residential reverse osmosis units won't remove some of the harmful chemicals in municipal water. Distillation plus de-ionization should remove most of the bad stuff.

You order your lab accessories from eBay? Don't they require identifying information such as a verified phone number during registration? Check your local laws. Even the most basic lab ware is illegal drug manufacturing paraphernalia in some states and requires a state issued permit.*

*http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RegulatoryServices/narcotics/narcprecursor.htm

I am purchasing distilled, deionized water from a local company. No water preparation done by me.

And thanks for the heads up about the state laws. I knew something of the sort, but I don't live in the US and am not subject to that. Surprisingly, a lot of companies will sell direct to individuals even if I didn't have ebay.

Went back onto ebay and found that certain sellers from specific states would not ship to various locations.

Also checked out your link and was very surprised. Some of the precursor chemicals I use (most not). As for the lab equipment, I use or have used all but the tableting and encapsulating machines. I really had no idea that what I consider basic equipment is 'regulated'

Tom

 

[Contained]

This is a great idea, I'll definitely be experimenting with this in the future. Only way I could see stability decreasing (and I could be wrong about this) is if the water in the vials melted and then re-froze multiple times, say, from the freezer losing power, but this should be easily avoidable.

Also, living in Texas I knew about some of the precursor regulation, but had no idea that some of the equipment on there was regulated. I've owned almost half of the equipment listed and I'm baffled that things like separatory funnels are regulated.

 

[MundaneDivinity]

I can't really give any feedback other than the fact that if it works it's an amazing idea. I'll definitely be watching this thread for some input from our more chemistry-savvy members and the results of your experiment!

 

[psood0nym]

I don't see anything wrong with the theory/concept as you've articulated it. But if you're interested in convenience then requiring a freezer is problematic. Consider that the powder LSD -- a very fragile molecule by all accounts -- sealed in a sealed (screw top) amber glass vial in varying environments in this Erowid account apparently didn't lose significant potency over a period of 55 years. This is a strong indication to me that freezers aren't necessary, just lots of glass vials.

Using a freezer long term means you always have to worry about somebody who you don't want opening it and wondering what whatever you've got it in that isn't frozen peas is doing there -- for years and years into the unpredictable future. Sub-milligram accuracy isn't going to effect your subjective experience with something like 4-AcO-DMT, either. If you're using some range of amount in the near future and having it on hand in the proposed way is beneficial to you for some reason, then I'm of the opinion that you should do it for that mass of compound and just buy a bunch of glass vials you can chuck the rest of your psychedelics into as they are (vials will preserve baggies too if you just stuff them into a large enough vial), and divide up the rest in dry form in workable quantities. Even larger vials with a few mL of air leftover are fine as long as you're not opening them frequently.That way there's less worrying about a lifetime of circumstances contending with the freezing requirement, waiting for it to thaw, traveling with it (moving), needing a power source, paying the power source, etc. Keeping even tiny volumes of liquid frozen for decades adds up to more than the cost of buying a bunch of vials/cheap mg scales.

 

[Thomas Davie]

Using a freezer long term means you always have to worry about somebody who you don't want opening it and wondering what whatever you've got it in that isn't frozen peas is doing there -- for years and years into the unpredictable future. Sub-milligram accuracy isn't going to effect your subjective experience with something like 4-AcO-DMT, either. If you're using some range of amount in the near future and having it on hand in the proposed way is beneficial to you for some reason, then I'm of the opinion that you should do it for that mass of compound and just buy a bunch of glass vials you can chuck the rest of your psychedelics into as they are (vials will preserve baggies too if you just stuff them into a large enough vial), and divide up the rest in dry form in workable quantities. Even larger vials with a few mL of air leftover are fine as long as you're not opening them frequently.That way there's less worrying about a lifetime of circumstances contending with the freezing requirement, waiting for it to thaw, traveling with it (moving), needing a power source, paying the power source, etc. Keeping even tiny volumes of liquid frozen for decades adds up to more than the cost of buying a bunch of vials/cheap mg scales.

You speak words of truth.

I've got my own house with no one to snoop around so I'm not concerned with having 40 or 50 labelled vials in an upright freezer. Occasionally a pot smoking relative will grab a freezer pop and might see vials, but I'm not worried about that.

Again, I'm losing the ability to use my left hand (which is my dominant hand and the one I use when I work with analytical balances), so I guess I'm trying to compensate with an idea and a hope.

Tom