Spasms and twitches 1 month after really strong MDMA crystals

[savior999]

Hi all, I am new and i hope i will not break any rule.

I used the seach function but did not find anything strictly related to my problem.

One month ago I had a crazy week-end, i took 3 pills and 1 gram (maybe more) of some really strong stony, yellowish mdma. Since then i had problems sleeping. The first two days I did not sleep at all. After that i started sleeping but having spasms and twitches before falling asleep (had to use benzo). I had one week of break when i could sleep without spasms and without meds but now (one month has passed) they started again, especially when i am about to fall sleep. Do you have any advice? Is it normal that after one month they are still there? Is there any chance of severe permanent damage on my nervous or brain system?
I also often feel like headache and feeling of "heavy" head. Sometimes also some "puntcuring" behind the brain and up the spine. If I am distracted, talk with other people or have a good time these symptom go away though.
But at night, even if i do yoga, relaxing exercises, etc..i still get those spasms right before i am about to sleep. Can't get rid of those yet.
I hope some of you can share any info or experience that might make me feel better.
Cheers

 

[severely etarded]

Unfortunately it sound like you may have receieved some adulterated.impure "molly".

This is a risk with street drugs, which is why we recommend testing them to confirm contents with a reagent tester.

If you have insurance you may want to go see a doctor. There's no telling what could be causing the headache feeling. It could be a negative side effect from the drugs or even completely unrelated. There's not much other advice we can give you

I would abstain from drugs, and live a healthy lifestyle. Eat a balanced diet free from glutens corn syrups & saturated & trans fat.

Good foods: Olive oil, fish oils, chicken, turkey, organic beef, and lots of mixed veggies.

Other than that I don't know what else to tell you

 

[savior999]

Thanks for the quick reply. I don't think it was bad stuff. Before taking it I made certain it was from some trustworthy people. They were friends and I got confirmation from 3 people that it was really good stuff. Maybe too good. The problem I guess is that i took the 1 gram (but i think it was even more) in 3-4 hours, melted in water, and it was a too short amount of time, especially for me who am not trained anymore. I already went to 2 doctors. One said it will pass with time. The other one suggested me to do Electroencephalography to verify what happened. I will do it in 10 days time but I am very worried now. No one ever had these symptoms, and for such a long amount of time?

 

[Tyd]

I'm not an expert in any way but I have heard people having these symptoms before. Are you taking any other meds/ recovery supplements? Piracetam by any chance? That causes spasms in rare cases. The strange sensations in your brain/head sound like brain zaps, basically something in your brain re-wiring, means you have taken way too much (obvious) but also go away with time, months usually but up to a year in severe cases.

Don't freak yourself out though, how was your use before this night? If it was infrequent I would say you should recover in another month, maybe a bit longer but the main thing is the brain has an amazing capability of healing.

 

[Number Love]

When your talking MDMA crystals there's really no level of strength, they are either pure MDMA crystals, or really cut down, or adulterated.

The only way to be sure if what your getting is PURE MDMA is to test it, if you don't do that, you can't be sure.

Now with that said, I've taken ridiculous amounts of MDMA and had some of the side effects you describe, muscle twitching, strange pressure in the head, but the symptoms did not last for a month. A month is way too long for the physical side effects of MDMA, unless your a constant abuser. At least in my experiences. Go see a doctor.

 

[savior999]

I'm not an expert in any way but I have heard people having these symptoms before. Are you taking any other meds/ recovery supplements? Piracetam by any chance? That causes spasms in rare cases. The strange sensations in your brain/head sound like brain zaps, basically something in your brain re-wiring, means you have taken way too much (obvious) but also go away with time, months usually but up to a year in severe cases.

Don't freak yourself out though, how was your use before this night? If it was infrequent I would say you should recover in another month, maybe a bit longer but the main thing is the brain has an amazing capability of healing.

I am constantly taking Vitamin C, 1000mg per day, and also multivitamins B, etc. I took Magnesium 375mg for a month and i have quit that now.
When you say "months of recovery up to a year" you are referring only to headache or also to spasms? Those are the ones that worry me the most. Last night it was a bit better but still had a few weak ones. I really hope I am on the way of recovery. I am 34 now. I have used drugs when i was around 20-22 frequently. Then i quit for 12 years. It was the second time in 2 months so i am not a frequent user at all.

 

[Andronicus]

Depending on how much "maybe more" was you might have taken up to, say, 10-15 does in one weekend. Even for a heavy, habitual user this is a shed load. You've probably really messed with your serotonin levels and other stuff. This can take a while to normalise - just think that even pharmceutical SSRI's can take a month to kick in and several months to wear off. Coming straight off them can even kill you just through meddling with your serotonin system. Clearly you're not gonna die or anything but you have to give your brain time to recover.

Obviously it's not normal to have this and nobody can answer the question as to permanent damage. But it's done now and there is nothing to be done about it. People have done more and come back fine after a couple of months. My brother recently took some RC and completely lost a few days of his life + 2 weeks of slurred speech etc. He's fine now. Don't take any other drugs - let your system clear out a bit. Chances are very much on your side that you'll be just fine.

For the spasms I would suggest getting some 5-HTP tablets and seeing how you get on. I've had zap, shocks, spasms etc after big sessions and 5-htp has helped a fair bit. Mine were so bad they literally made me drop stuff like a mug of tea - started in the head and zapped down my arm! They lasted over a month. Unnerving to say the least but I don't have them now you'll be pleased to hear.

You could be looking a few months before you're completely better but I suspect you'll start to feel relatively OK in just a few more weeks.

Good luck with it. Try not to worry too much. Eat healthy and do exercise. Don't do it again you nutter!

 

[Tyd]

I am constantly taking Vitamin C, 1000mg per day, and also multivitamins B, etc. I took Magnesium 375mg for a month and i have quit that now.
When you say "months of recovery up to a year" you are referring only to headache or also to spasms? Those are the ones that worry me the most. Last night it was a bit better but still had a few weak ones. I really hope I am on the way of recovery. I am 34 now. I have used drugs when i was around 20-22 frequently. Then i quit for 12 years. It was the second time in 2 months so i am not a frequent user at all.

I was referring only to the brain zaps, I've heard of them lasting that long but getting much better after a month or two (habitual abuse though). With the spasms I've not heard about them lasting a really long time. If you say theyre getting weaker already then you're probably on the way to recovery already. Your use doesn't sound excessive in any way so I would say you should be fine soon. Eventually you should recover completely, unless you take a huge amount in one night again!

 

[savior999]

I will surely not take anything anymore, definitely. At least for one year or...forever.
I read about 5HTP, but i did not understand if it is really what i need. Couldn't it give the opposite effect and make it worse? (there are agonists and antagonists and i did not understand that very well).
I am not drinking any alcohol, I am swimming 1 hour almost everyday and having a healthy diet.

@andronicus : but when you had those zaps, you had them also before falling asleep? how could you sleep with them?

Thanks for the reassuring words guys!

 

[Andronicus]

@saviour999 - I had a lot of trouble sleeping to be honest. Not only did I get the zaps but I got that horrible feeling of falling out of bed/off the edge of the world "jump" just as I was about to doze off. I also had kind of subtle muscle-writhing in my face that felt like worms under my skin and that was worse at night.

5htp is just some herbal thing. It either works or it doesn't and if it doesn't (or makes it worse) then you can stop taking it. It's not terribly powerful but might well help. It got me through a very rough patch. I can't think of anything else that is likely to help to be honest.

 

[Andronicus]

Read this. Does it sound familiar to your symptoms?: http://www.lumrix.net/health/Brain_zaps.html

 

[savior999]

I will definitely try 5HTP then, and see how it goes.

The head symptoms I have are not really like those. I had more like headache, but continuous. And also a continuous feeling like if someone is stinging me on the head (not strong but boring).

I also have those very small pulsing movements of the tissues, like the ones that everyone often has beneath the eye, but in almost all parts of my body, randomly.

I did not mention I am doing a lot of kundalini yoga meditation, especially healing meditations.
In the last 2 days, I am doing this really cool one http://www.yogibhajan.com/ybkriyas/index.php?id=92

It "balances the left hemisphere of the brain with the base of the right hemisphere. This enables the brain to maintain its equilibrium under stress or the weight of a sudden shock. It also keeps the nerves from being shattered under those circumstances" and this seems really to be helping me. I do not have that feeling anymore and the headache is almost gone. During the meditation, if i am well concentrated, I feel a very pleasant sensation like a shiver all around my brain and it feels so healing...it is really cool. If someone does yoga could try.

I am happy your symptoms have passed, they must have been a real pain i believe!

 

[Fyasko.]

I took Magnesium 375mg for a month and i have quit that now.

what type of magnesium was it? if it was magnesium oxide that could be why you werent seeing if/any results from it. (magnesium oxide horrible bioavailability)

 

[savior999]

what type of magnesium was it? if it was magnesium oxide that could be why you werent seeing if/any results from it. (magnesium oxide horrible bioavailability)

It is from boots pharm, in the ingredients it says "magnesium oxide". so which one should i get?

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Unfortunately it sound like you may have receieved some adulterated.impure "molly".

This is a risk with street drugs, which is why we recommend testing them to confirm contents with a reagent tester.

If you have insurance you may want to go see a doctor. There's no telling what could be causing the headache feeling. It could be a negative side effect from the drugs or even completely unrelated. There's not much other advice we can give you

I would abstain from drugs, and live a healthy lifestyle. Eat a balanced diet free from glutens corn syrups & saturated & trans fat.

Good foods: Olive oil, fish oils, chicken, turkey, organic beef, and lots of mixed veggies.

Other than that I don't know what else to tell you

I normally don't use quotes, because I find them to be unnecessary.
They can add a false sense of validity to a post - allowing a person to believe they have actually made a decent argument regardless of the content.
A good post can stand on its own.

Nevertheless, I feel it necessary to point out some fallacies above. I'll even add the typical 8)...

Immediately bringing up the possibility of adulterated product is an overwhelmingly common practice among MDMA users on BL.
It is the primary defense against the acknowledgment that MDMA CAN and DOES cause the exact effects described by the OP.
MUCH more important than adulterated product, is the dosage described - which is well within the toxic range.

Suggesting a doctor visit is another practice designed to absolve yourself from any responsibility in providing REAL answers.
This is confirmed by the rest of your paragraph. The truth is - we DO have information about the cause of the 'headaches'.
And there is PLENTY of other advice 'we' can give this type of OP.

Your advice on abstaining from drugs and eating healthy is correct, but you failed to mention the powerful role of exercise.
More than any other lifestyle choice, exercising offers considerable benefit to any person recovering from a brain injury, whether drug related or not.

At least you finished by claiming you don't know what else to say...
A fitting statement for a guy who claims to have 'debunked' some of my posts.
It is posts like these that make me want to argue - this is a 34 yr. old OP asking for help and a college kid is telling him 'we just don't know.'
This is bullshit.

To the real mods in this forum - I have no intent on turning another thread into an argument.
But I cannot allow pleas for help to go unanswered, and I certainly cannot tolerate simplistic advice.
I also cannot allow people to argue my detailed posts without my response.
If it turns into pages of back-and-forth, shouldn't we consider the goal of BL to be fulfilled?

Perhaps there needs to be specific threads for this type of confrontation, a place for heated discussion.
But it seems to me that threads like these are the perfect place - another victim of MDMA is crawling to BL for help, only to find ignorant, arrogant, or misinformed advice.

I acknowledge that the amount of research on MDMA is so vast that it eludes conclusive findings, even by the highly qualified and dedicated scientists that take part in it. So why would I think that members of this forum, whether college students or not, should be able to provide definitive answers?

Truly definitive findings may be elusive, but the fact is - MDMA causes definitive effects.
And there ARE some general conclusions that are AGREED upon in the scientific community.
Although our understanding is incomplete - some BASICS have been well-established.

Why is it that users of MDMA are so arrogant as to 'debunk' a VAST collection of data that points to the conclusion of neurotoxicty?
Why is the immediate response to DISMISS any risk because most studies are imperfect?
Why require PERFECTION in the first place?

Perfect studies with definitive findings do NOT exist in science, especially when it comes to the NERVOUS SYSTEM.
When dealing with your own BRAIN, is it really necessary to ere on the side of arrogance?
By requiring the data to be irrefutable you are literally gambling with your own mind.

THIS is the type of thinking that I seek to influence on BL, sometimes through argument.
I do NOT expect people to stop rolling, but I DO expect users to become more AWARE of the data that DOES exist.
Let's 'roll our nuts off' with an honest understanding of the available data.

I do not think that I have ALL the answers, but I do have some.
Answers are exactly what these OPs are asking for, and my goal is to fulfill that need in some way.
I know that my contributions are not perfect and conclusive, but they sure as hell offer information.
We can do better, and in the process perhaps save a few people from months of 'brain zaps'.

Please allow these 'arguments' to stand.
When an OP asks for help and current users of MDMA belittle that request, it deserves confrontation.
I will now switch from confrontation to advice.

 

[Folley]

Perhaps there needs to be specific threads for this type of confrontation, a place for heated discussion.

Well I dont see anyone making one yet...

Its a shame too see more and more of these threads popping up, why are people so much more interested in how MDMA can fuck up your brain after they fuck up their brain?

 

[Heh?!]

I'm not quite sure why anyone would assume the drugs were adulterated. Sounds like you did FAR too much MDMA. These symptoms will most likely subside eventually, but are very common with MDMA abuse. As said above, eat healthy, get plenty of rest, and plenty of exercise. A trip to the doctor might not be a bad idea, but I don't know how helpful they'll be. Might just give you a benzo or SSRI script (or both) and send you on your way.

 

[Heh?!]

@saviour999 - I had a lot of trouble sleeping to be honest. Not only did I get the zaps but I got that horrible feeling of falling out of bed/off the edge of the world "jump" just as I was about to doze off.

Also, I've never had zaps, but I get this falling sensation for a few days after I roll. Generally only happens if I'm falling asleep on my back.

 

[Fyasko.]

It is from boots pharm, in the ingredients it says "magnesium oxide". so which one should i get?

yeah magnesium oxide is the cheapest form but it has the worst bioavailibility.
IME magnesium citrate is much better and its only a few bucks more. why dont you try giving that a go, and actually if you can, try looking for magnesium taurate or glycinate.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Savior999 -

There is some good advice here.
But you should know that doing 3 tabs AND a gram of molly is WAY too much.
Regardless of other users that say its within normal range - it is NOT.

If you look through BL you will find that most people agree, anything over half a gram is a waste.
A whole gram is considered overkill.

Lets look at the numbers...
If your tabs each contained 100mg of MDMA, which is reasonable to assume, then your total night dosage was 1300mg.
If you weigh 170lbs, then you are 76.5 kg.

Lets divide 1300mg by 76.5 kg.
We get 17mg/kg.

This number is important because this is the formula used in all research.
When dealing with rats, doses of 20mg/kg are common.
When dealing with primates 20mg/kg has been used, but 10 or even 5mg/kg has been shown to cause neurotoxicity in repeated doses.

Some research suggests that 2.5mg/kg did NOT cause neurotoxicity in monkeys if spaced properly.
This is considered a 'safe' dose and is common among smarter users.
This would equate to about 200mg, or two tabs, if you weigh 170lbs.

More experienced users will often take 3-4 tabs in a night, but this is recognized as the upper limit of reason among most.
Very few research studies have been done with humans, but the few that I have found typically follow these guidelines.
150mg is considered the dose necessary to induce the full endocrine response.
Very FEW participants were given more than this - with two receiving almost 400mg.

This is a clue - anything over a half a gram is considered foolish, both in experienced users on Bluelight AND among doctors already conducting controversial research.

Regardless of what others may tell you about their pattern of use, you should conclude that your dosage IS the cause of your symptoms.
You may have taken slightly less than 1300 mg, depending on the purity - but you obviously passed the HALF gram mark.
You may have even taken MORE than 1300mg...

So, be assured that the cause IS known.
You now know the answer.

But that isn't the most important question, is it?

The scalp and face are endowed with an impressive array of nerve endings.
In fact, your sensory cortex gives priority to the face/head/hands/feet over other body parts.
For their relative size, they have more sensory neurons dedicated to them in the brain.

Also, anything above your neck is wired directly into the brain without involvement of the spinal cord and brainstem.
That means that the nerve endings, both for sensation and muscle control, are connected to various parts of the brain.
Facial expression is quite important in humans compared to other animals. It is a unique form of communication.

In stroke victims, half of the facial muscles can be paralyzed.
More common is the loss of function of a single arm, but the face can be involved depending on the blood vessel the nerves that are damaged.

These sensations are happening to you because your brain is being 're-wired'.
Serotonin has a direct and profound influence upon blood flow in the brain.
Where serotonin increases, so does blood.

Due to a local loss of serotonin, some brain regions are undoubtedly experiencing a loss of blood supply.
This is somewhat common among MDMA users - some do not even report problems.
This is where the controversial 'holes in the brain' argument stems from.

When they scan brains of MDMA users, these drops in blood supply show up on the scan as a 'hole'.
The doctors know the brain tissue is STILL there, in fact so is SOME blood.

Often these drops in blood supply are about 10-15% below the average seen elsewhere in the brain.
Depending on how the doctor sets the sensitivity, these 'holes' can appear more or less prominent.
This is intended only as a control to allow the doctor to discriminate from 5 to 10 to 20% changes, NOT to mislead drug users who are looking for reasons to dismiss solid data.

The brain is supposed to exhibit an even and average distribution of capillaries - this is a golden rule established by TENS OF THOUSANDS of MRI scans.
This is a very basic finding in neurology - any alteration to this even blood distribution is associated with problems, sometimes severe.
Even elderly people, if they took care of their brains during their life, continue to exhibit this even blood supply.

Many MDMA users do NOT.

This is because serotonin is a powerful moderator of cerebral micro-vasculature.
Some very unfortunate people die of strokes while rolling, but these are acute reactions which are considered irrelevant by most users.
Lots of people just feel 'down' during the days/weeks following use.

Then there are 'brain zaps'.
Short, violent, shock-like sensations that start in the head and can travel throughout the body.
Some people describe a 'clicking' sound when this happens, other don't.

There is also 'head-pressure' which can carry on for hours or days.
This feels like a very strange headache - it feels like your brain is being SQUEEZED.

This phenomena is also seen in SSRI users when they discontinue.
Even those that taper carefully, have described 'brain zaps' for months.

In relatively FEW MDMA users, there have been INCREASES in blood flow seen in many different brain regions.
It is considered a hallmark sign of neurotoxicity - or the selective destruction of serotonin axons.
I believe this is also the cause of the zaps and pressure.

As the brainstem continues to send serotonin into the network of nerves, new axons are popping up.
Some of them are in the right place, but many are not.
As the new receptor sites are being established, the flow of serotonin is disrupting normal blood supply.
It is playing a 'tug-of-war' with the capillaries in your brain.

Sometimes this results in major pressure or headache.
Sometimes this causes sensations on the face and head.
Sometimes this causes small muscle spasms - or myoclonic seizures.

All of it points to the same conclusion - MDMA has caused the destruction of serotonin axons in your brain.
As a result, the brain is 're-wiring' itself.

It is frequently reported that the pressure or 'zaps' get worse when it is time to go to sleep.
Some people have even told me that they were FINE all day, until they laid down at night.
Another answer awaits...

The hypothalamus is the regulator of homeo-stasis.
It is a command center that lies just past the brainstem and it controls several key functions such as digestion, heart-rate, body temperature.
It also connects your sensory nerves to your higher cognitive/emotional pathways.
When you roll and your skin flushes and feels sensitive to the touch, and you can't believe how good it feels - this is the hypothalamus.

In animal research, the hypothalamus has been shown to be HYPER-innervated by serotonin during the recovery process from acute MDMA exposure.
This can be called 'damage'.

When serotonin syndrome occurs, which is life-threatening, the first sign of trouble is severe tachycardia.
Once again, the hypothalamus is important.

When you lay down in bed, your hypothalamus is supposed to maintain blood pressure by expanding blood vessels elsewhere in the body.
Without this response, everyone would feel WAY too much pressure in their head when they go to sleep.
They would also feel VERY light-headed when they stand up.

Now you know the cause of your headaches and why they get worse at night.

Still not the most important question though...

The most important answer I can give you is about recovery.
Regardless of the hyper-innervation of the hypothalamus, and the permanent loss of SERT density in cortical brain regions...
Eventually blood flow is restored!

That's right, the same brain scans show that over time - usually months, but up to a year and half...the offending increases in blood flow go away.
Through re-innervation of serotonin axons, as well as compensatory responses in other neurotransmitter networks, blood distribution will return to normal.
Both scans and anecdotal reports bear this out - even among HEAVY long-term users, this period of torture DOES come to an end.

You didn't mention anxiety or panic attacks.
If you aren't having any, consider it a VERY good sign.
Anxiety/depression follows the same timeline - it can take between 12-18 months to resolve in some people.

You may be one of the lucky - any severe levels of anxiety?
How about your vision? If it is normal, then you have avoided HPPD, another complication of MDMA toxicity.
How is your appetite? Do you have any intestinal discomfort?
What about your sex drive? Are orgasms normal?

If you can't complain about any of the above issues, then you may be done with your recovery much more quickly.
If you ARE having other problems, try to understand that 12 months is considered the rule of thumb.
LOTS of research on former users finds that around 1 year is when many of the symptoms go away.
I have seen MANY anecdotal reports that claim the same thing.

Life gets better even in the first year, but it is not linear.
Things get better, then worse. Then better again.
Some people report lingering effects for many years, but even they will claim a vast improvement around the one year mark.

In former SSRI users with severe withdrawal - a similar progression is seen.
Many of the symptoms are the same, but more importantly the majority of sufferers experience relief within the first 2 years.
Occasionally it can take 3-4, but this is VERY rare.

Considering what we know about your pattern of use, we can assume you will fall into the 12 month or LESS category.
This is one of the answers you were really wanting.

Here is another...
Want to speed it up?

Exercise.
Constantly.

Working out causes a release of BDNF or brain-derived neutrophic factor.
This stimulates the release of STEM CELLS into the hippocampus, the basal forebrain, and the cortex.
These stem cells grow into glial cells and neurons.
Lifting weights seems to be the most effective way to release BDNF.

Jogging, or other cardio, is more effective at increasing the number of capillaries in the brain!
That means that you are increasing your heart rate and therefore circulation in the brain.
But you are also popping up NEW blood vessels.
Over a period of months, your brain will actually gain MASS because of this.

Finally, BDNF has been proven to sprout new serotonin axons!
Apart from its role in neurogenesis around the brain and increasing capillary density, this protein (BDNF) actually causes a dramatic response in the very network that has been damaged by MDMA.

You should try to work out daily.
Don't set the bar too high - even just 10 minutes is enough to make a difference.
The important thing - the CRITICAL part is repetition.
It is hard for most people to accomplish the repetition part, they just cannot manage to make it a habit.

You now have more motivation to overcome this than you have EVER had before.
So get to it - and feel the difference.

Don't expect a cure - but those 12 months we talked about will be MUCH easier to tolerate if you FIGHT your way through it.
Even if it is only 3 months for you, working out can ONLY help.

When a person has a massive stroke, do you know what the treatment is?
A DAILY exercise regimen, starting the NEXT day.
Heavy in cardio...

Your body has already provided the greatest means for recovery.
Eating right is also important - lots of fruits/veggies and FISH.
Bananas contain serotonin and they help you digest other calories.
Fish oil improves mylenation in the brain. Take it every day.

Piracetam will make you feel normal - it is an incredible substance.
But it is NOT a cure.

Do NOT eat crappy carbohydrates.
If you weren't aware, the primary purpose for serotonin is digestion.
Take it EASY on the intestines, and your head-pressure will respond.
Carbs increase serotonin activity in the brain, not a good thing.

5-HTP will raise global serotonin levels, but it can make anxiety WORSE.
I suggest trying a small dose first. It might make you feel better, but you should work your way up to a whole dose.
Do NOT combine it with other drugs that affect serotonin.

Tryptophan is the sole dietary source for stomach bile and serotonin.
One aids in digesting food, while the other causes contractions in the smooth muscle lining the intestines.
As an afterthought, our brains evolved to regulate several key cognitive and emotional functions using this chemical.
MDMA and other serotonergic drugs, take advantage of this highly complex brain-gut circuitry.
Take care of your gut, and your brain will thank you.

I hope these answers help.
Good luck and don't forget to exercise!