Gabapentinoids Somebody Who Has 1.4 Bdo Experience And Gbl Experience

[sekio]

The pharmacokinetics/metabolism of 1,4-butanediol is quite tricky and is indeed very difficult to get right due to the multiple enzymatic pathways.

On the contrary, it's dead simple. There is one major enzymatic pathway involved, alcohol dehydrogenase forms 4-hydroxybutyraldehyde transiently, which is rapidly oxidised by aldehyde dehydrogenase to form GHB. The metabolism is selective, high yielding, and rapid. 1 g (also 1mL) of BDO produces the equivalent of 1.4g NaGHB so is 140% as potent by weight compared to pure NaGHB.

A study showed that oral BDO produces peak GHB concentrations after 20 to 30 minutes.[ref] Comparably, GHB produces peak effects after 25-60 mins, meaning it's slightly slower than BDO. [ref]
Also, BDO itself lacks activity at GABA-B or GHBR.[ref], and the reactive aldehydes are not seen in significant quantity (unlike ethanol).

The major factor in variability is that some people genetically lack the aldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme (namely certain Asian folk who get seriously flushed when they drink even small amounts of ethanol). These people will convert BDO to GHB in a slower ans less complete fashion,

 

[negrogesic]

On the contrary, it's dead simple. There is one major enzymatic pathway involved, VERONIQUE VEGA forms 4-hydroxybutyraldehyde transiently, which is rapidly oxidised by aldehyde dehydrogenase to form GHB. The metabolism is selective, high yielding, and rapid. 1 g (also 1mL) of BDO produces the equivalent of 1.4g NaGHB so is 140% as potent by weight compared to pure NaGHB.

A study showed that oral BDO produces peak GHB concentrations after 20 to 30 minutes.[ref] Comparably, GHB produces peak effects after 25-60 mins, meaning it's slightly slower than BDO. [ref]
Also, BDO itself lacks activity at GABA-B or GHBR.[ref], and the reactive aldehydes are not seen in significant quantity (unlike ethanol).

The major factor in variability is that some people genetically lack the aldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme (namely certain Asian folk who get seriously flushed when they drink even small amounts of ethanol). These people will convert BDO to GHB in a slower ans less complete fashion,

Well yeah, one pathway that is, but dependent on two enzymes (which ostensibly can lead to more variation between individuals relative to GBL or GHB). Add to that co-consumption with alcohol and food, and the steep dose response curve of GHB itself, and its a pretty tricky substance relative to use compared to GBL and GHB (which themselves are tricky substances to use).

1,4-BD has definitely resulted in more surprises for me than GBL and especially NaGHB. Ive found tying to titrate the dose is quite a bit trickier, and has led to some pretty nasty surprises.

 

[sekio]

Well yeah, one pathway that is, but dependent on two enzymes (which ostensibly can lead to more variation between individuals relative to GBL or GHB).

The only relevant enzyme seems to be alcohol dehydrogenase: I can't find a reference that proves that 4-hydroxy-butyraldehyde is detectable at any level, meaning that the aldehyde dehydrogenase enzymes act much faster. To use a fancy term, the rate limiting step is the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme. Yes, some people may have slightly slower conversion of BDO to GHB but I would bet that the conversion goes to completion anyway, meaning similar peak GHB levels per a certain amount of BDO, but the peak comes somewhat later.

Consuming ethanol with BDO is not a smart idea. Ethanol will inhibit metabolism of BDO to 4-OH-butyraldehyde, but also will potentiate any GHB that does get made in an unpredictable and possibly lethal fashion. In general mixing depressants is a no-no.

In general the first several times (and ideally all times) BDO is dosed, it is done so with a measured dose, and the time of ingestion is noted. It is not combined with other depressants or GABAergics and redosing is not done until well after several half lives (i.e. >3h between doses) and preferably with a slight i.e. 20% dose reduction. Initial dose 2g? Then a suggested redose (if absolutely needed) would be 1.6g.

On paper, if an overdose of BDO is administered, an alcohol dehydrogenase inhibitor like fomipezole is given rapidly (within 20-30 min, maximum) could stop its conversion to GHB and possibly save lives, but more likely, anti-nauseants and breathing support (intubation) would be used, as GHB's major toxicity would stem from loss of breathing for significant periods or aspiration of vomit rather than any direct ability to kill neurons (like amphetamines) - sort of the same situation as benzo or opioid OD, if you lacked the "proper" antidotes (naloxone for opioids and flumazenil for benzos), or even some other sedative overdoses, like phenibut or baclofen. If you keep the patient breathing and their heart beeping, the kidneys and liver will gladly help remove the sedative from the blood gradually, and eventually the patient would wake up and return to normal consciousness. Though they may also be in withdrawal at that point too.

Also here is a good reference document on BDO and its conversion to GHB: [pdf]

 

[axe battler]

Yeah I think 2ml is too much. 1.5ml for kick off, then 0.7ml every 60-90 mins works for me. I'm over 6ft and 200lbs though so this isn't a dosage guide . More than 2ml or if I take 1ml after less than 60min and zzzzzz guaranteed

 

[negrogesic]

Also here is a good reference document on BDO and its conversion to GHB: [pdf]

The description of the effects in that WHO report was pretty amusing, sounds like it was written by someone with personal experience

"A dose of 1-1.5 ml makes someone lose his inhibitions and acts as an aphrodisiac.

A dose of 1.5-2 ml acts entactogen, euphoric and intensifies the senses (e.g. music).

At a dose of 2-3 ml one can feel a strong euphoric “turn”."

 

[User145667]

Yes, it is more harsh and significantly more toxic than both gbl and ghb. It's literally an industrial solvent and sold as ink cleaner among other things. Don't confuse toxicity to mean "better high".

Take care with this stuff, its a very heavy load on the liver and can obviously kill easily with an OD. Stay safe.

I don't get your point here. Gbl is also an industrial solvent that is used as tire axel cleaner or some shit. At least BDO is an alcohol. And people on here generally aren't that concerned with using other alcohols, such as ethanol, Methyl-butanol, PG/VG-based vape juices, etc. Hell, even THC is technically an alcohol molecule isn't it? If one is gonna drink/consume a solvent, wouldn't they want it to at least be an alcoholic substance that uses the same liver enzymes as ethanol? At least there is a sense of familiarity to that

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I don't get your point here. Gbl is also an industrial solvent that is used as tire axel cleaner or some shit. At least BDO is an alcohol. And people on here generally aren't that concerned with using other alcohols, such as ethanol, Methyl-butanol, PG/VG-based vape juices, etc. Hell, even THC is technically an alcohol molecule isn't it? If one is gonna drink/consume a solvent, wouldn't they want it to at least be an alcoholic substance that uses the same liver enzymes as ethanol? At least there is a sense of familiarity to that

I was simply echoing many anecdotal reports and my own experience that 1-4-BDO has a much heavier body load and subjectively feels more toxic than GHB or GBL. I wasn't suggesting it was any less of a solvent.

Hell, even THC is technically an alcohol molecule isn't it?

Ehhhh, lol. That's sort of like saying the space shuttle is the same as a screw.

Same 3 molecules as an alcohol... but worlds different and more complex chemical.

Also, there are no real studies on 1 4 BDO effect on humans (correct me if I'm wrong). Whereas GHB is a licensed and prescribed medicine.

 

[User145667]

I was simply echoing many anecdotal reports and my own experience that 1-4-BDO has a much heavier body load and subjectively feels more toxic than GHB or GBL. I wasn't suggesting it was any less of a solvent.


Ehhhh, lol. That's sort of like saying the space shuttle is the same as a screw.

Same 3 molecules as an alcohol... but worlds different and more complex chemical.

Also, there are no real studies on 1 4 BDO effect on humans (correct me if I'm wrong). Whereas GHB is a licensed and prescribed medicine.

Again, though, you could say the very same thing about GBL on your last point. Personally, GBL sounds more wicked to me than 1,4 BDO. I have some 1,4 right now and it honestly feels just like GHB to me. It might be GBL though cause it kicks in super fast like 10 minutes after dosing, but it was sold as 1,4.

 

[axe battler]

GBL is better but 1.4 is worth a go if it's all you can get its worth shot..it's just more unpredictable in dosage.

 

[smokeymcpot42088]

I had alot of fun with it. Be very careful with your dosage. Be very careful of addiction. I failed at both of those things although I did end up flushing the rest of it when I kicked. If you are happy in your life I would steer clear of this one. If you feel you NEED something stronger than alcohol with less BS; this might be fun for you. I kinda wish I woulda saved my last couple bottles honestly (haha as if they would still be around if I did).

 

[axe battler]

And if you want your GBL to feel more like ghb without converting it, you can always put your dose in a longer drink (like a pint of water or juice) and sip it over 20 mins or so.

 

[Wiserthanearlier]

So @fastandbulbous, @izo. @negrogesic @Xorkoth.
I don't get the nausea with bdi and it's all I can getz but I've been starting with 2ml which seems to be a good kick starter. Then when I feel it winding down after an hour or so I'll do another ml, which sometimes is okay sometimes knocks me out.
I'm 16st/220lbs make 6"2. Dosage advice would be appreciated as I've had some great times with it.
Maybe 1.5ml first dose then 0-5 to 0.75 very hour or until I feel ill I want a redose?
It's a tricky drug to get right. Harder than regular G. Which by the way was over twice the cost, but not really any better in fx.
Thanks goiz.

Some rules to use safely.
No alcohol. Well known of course

To dose, find your active level. Dosing on full stomach vs empty means titrate dose up or down slightly accordingly. My dosing was around 1.7ml to 1.9ml 80kg M.
Now dose will run for 2 hours. You can safely redose your lower amount in your range again every 2 hours.

Doing this makes it super easy. No part dosing trying to hit sweet spot.
Drink water and never alcohol.
Write time down of dose btw. It's just sensible if dosing regularly

 

[sekio]

1.4 is worth a go if it's all you can get its worth shot..it's just more unpredictable in dosage.

I always found it was quite easily predictable. About 2mL/2g is the sweet spot (density of BDO is conveniently same as water, 1g/mL), plus or minus 0.5mL/g, redose every 3-4h.
And though I can't claim this is typical or advisable, there was a period of time where a good friend of mine, and myself, probably went through something like 2 liters of pure BDO, just from basically spending all day constantly redosing with 2g amounts, for no doubt several months. There were fewer blackouts than you'd expect, and most curiously, neither of us seemed to have any sort of withdrawal or rebound effects. When the BDO ran out, we both kind of looked at each other, shrugged our shoulders, and went on our (less sedated) life. Not a lick of physical dependence, just some (expected) mental laments that "more would be nice." No seizures or unusual anxiety or nerve issues, and we weren't substituting with baclofen or anything either.

Years later I am prescribed/functionally dependent on baclofen, for spasticity secondary to a spinal injury, Like BDO, when I have run out, it's unpleasant (my spasticity comes back, imagine the convulsions your body has from a hiccup, now imagine that continuously, every 1-3 seconds, after any sort of stimulation - it could be as little as lifting a blanket up. You can't think, you can't sleep, you can't concentrate. Even if you try to stay still, it's autonomic...
Anyway, when I run out, I do notice rebound spasticity (or is it the baseline spasticity that is usually medicated?) but have yet to have severe anxiety or seizures.
And for the aspiring psychonaut, baclofen is not a good GHB replacement. It lacks any euphoriant effect. At best it's a good sedative, an (admittedly reckless) associate I gave ~70mg baclofen to decided it was smart to eat it all and ended up having a 36-48 hour snooze. In fact, baclofen OD is literally one of those drugs in spy movies that Q cooks up to make James Bond appear dead to infiltrate the Russian genotoxin lab via the morgue..., that is to say, a big enough OD mimics brain death. If they keep you on a ventilator for long enough]/i] your liver and kidneys will "do the needful" (as the Indian English speakers would say) and excrete the baclofen until the point where your brain switches back on after its impromptu nap and you wake up as if nothing at all had happened. Pretty trippy.

 

[User145667]

GBL is better but 1.4 is worth a go if it's all you can get its worth shot..it's just more unpredictable in dosage.

Looking back, I agree. I never had black outs on GHB, but this shit gave me 2 black outs at work that cost me my job. The same dose can sometimes knock me out and sometimes not even fully satisfy. That part is for the birds