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Somebody consumes an actual CWE of ergot!

They did something for 2000 years and it sure as hell wasnt just water, barley, and mint.

I wouldnt say this is a crazy idea at all.

Although i was under the impression cold water extractions of ergot have been done before under experimental procedure. Ill have to dbl check my books when I get home.
 
Psyghost said:
They did something for 2000 years and it sure as hell wasnt just water, barley, and mint.

I wouldnt say this is a crazy idea at all.
Agreed.

Erowid ergot vault: http://www.erowid.org/plants/ergot/ergot.shtml

From page 647 of the Encylopedia of Psychoactive Plants:

Claviceps purpurea, preparation and dosage: The sclerotia are collected when the rye is ripe and dry and are then dried and crushed. The resulting powder can be used to produce alcoholic extracts and cold-water infusions. Because ergot preparations are almost impossible to standardize and exhibit considerable variations in alkaloid concentration and in the proportions of the constituent alkaloids, one seldom finds information about dosages.

The older literature often notes that four ergot grains are sufficient to speed up the process of labor. Such statements, however, should not necessarily be taken at face value.

Alcoholic extracts can be very dangerous, as they dissolve the toxic alkaloids. It is only with cold-water extracts that the poisonous alkaloids remain undissolved.

There is no data available concerning cold-water extracts. Self-experimentation is absolutely not recommended!
 
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quite amazing if you ask me, not something I'd personally do, but still amazing.
 
I think the discussion issue here is "does a CWE effectively eliminate or decrease the dangers of eating ergot to the point where doing this to trip is an acceptable risk." We all know that eating straight ergot is asking for a serious fuck over, so why dont we all stop talking about how screwed you are if you eat ergot straight and how lots of people died from "Saint Anthony's Fire," and start talking about the validity and safety of a CWE on ergot.

The fact that the gangrene inducing lysergamides arent soluble in cold water doesn't really eliminate the risk enough for me to try it. Heh. I dont think we really need to worry about the little kids reading this board running outside and eating ergot, I mean who knows where to find this shit anyway? Maybe if I could just walk across the street into the rye fields Id be dead already, but I dont quite think I wanna get gangrene at this point in my life.
 
This information is likely valid but can never be safe. Given the variable alkaloid content of ergot, there will always be considerable risks in its use in any form, and given the availability of LSA alkaloids in Ipomeas and other plants, there is no point in taking that chance. The only 'safe' approach would be to HPLC the extract and identify / separate all the components with spectral analysis, which is not likely to happen.. No one should try this experiment .. there are far better options and this community does not need any more casualties.
To briefly comment on the criticisms of E-dot - experimentation is the name of the game when it comes to entheogens, and just because people are exploring plant materials that turn out to be duds, does not invalidate the process. Not everything will produce valuable effects, but without individual assays, no one can determine which are the winners. Edot is a valuable resource just like this and many other online forums - as long as the bullshit detector remains on at all times...
 
Is there not diffferent strains of ergot? Claviceps purepea or something else?
 
A few pages before the entry on claviceps purpurea in the encyclopedia by Ratsch, there are a few pages concerning claviceps paspali...Hofmann believes that what may have been used at Eleusis was the strain from Paspali grass which grows all over the Mediterranean and was commonly infected--it contained only good alkaloids and none of the bad--and could have been used in powdered form even. I will have to check again on the encyclopedia entry--it is also talked about at length in the book "The Road to Eleusis" but I don't have the info handy right now. Ratsch saids that it is not known if that grass was around in ancient times in that area during that period...it may have not appeared until a much later time...but not much data is really known about this, however it is known that there is a famous plain adjacent to Eleusis. I'll post the info later if I can.

These are some interesting links concerning the Mystery of Eleusis:

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/valencic.htm

In one of his letters, JONATHAN OTT (1994) informed me that he intended to test the ergot (of barley) hypothesis one day soon. I think that we all should eagerly, but of course not too eagerly, expect the results of his ergot-self-experimentation.
To my knowledge there has been not a single attempt to ingest water soaked ergot with other putative ingredients that would simulate the kykeon in a controlled environment.

http://www.psychedelic-library.org/Mixing%...nal Draft.pdf

Someone should contact the heffter institute or someone with some money and have them do an analysis of a cold water extract of this stuff someday...a study.
 
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Concerning Claviceps paspali (Paspalum Ergot):

Page 643 of the Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants by Ratsch:
Paspalum distichum (knotgrass) is common in North America and is now a common wild grass in the Mediterranean region as well (Wasson et at. 1985). Ergot infesting this grass produces the ergot alkaloids lysergic acid amide ( = ergine, LSA) and lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide, both of which also occur in Ipomoea violacea and Turbina corymbosa. Since it contains only hallucinogenic alkaloids, Wasson et al. advanced the hypothesis that Paspalum ergot was the secret ingredient in kykeon, the Eleusinian initiatory drink:

"Early Man in ancient Greece could have arrived at an hallucinogen from ergot. He might have done this from ergot growing on wheat or barley (claviceps purpurea). An easier way would have been to use the ergot growing on the common wild grass Paspalum. This is based on the assumption that the herbalists of ancient Greece were as intelligent and resourceful as the herbalists of pre Conquest Mexico. (wasson et al. 1998, 44)."

If this grass was in fact not introduced into Europe until the modern era--as all of the sources suggest--then Paspalum ergot must be eliminated as a possible candidate for the active constituent in kykeon.

"LSD" the book by Otto Snow contains copious amounts of information on ergot and the grains/grasses it infects. In the book there is discussion of colony characteristics & life cycle of Claviceps paspali, medium preparations, microbiological production, etc. There is also a chapter on claviceps purpurea cultivation and strain selection, many pictures/sketches of grains & grasses.

I am more inclined to think that Todd Skinner did a "cold wash" of ergot THEN added it to the wine (this would also cause more d-lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide labile adducts to form possibly) but what do I know. It's hard to believe he had a live ergot culture growing in wine which contains alcohol. And as mentioned alcohol dissolves both polar (good) and non-polar (bad) compounds, rendering it toxic assuming it was claviceps purpurea and not claviceps paspali.

Lysergic herself did start a thread at edot once on her experiences with the "ergot wine". She discusses her other experiences with LSD (1000mcg), mescaline, dmt, ald-52, 2-ci, and others in the book. I guess that's what happens when you live with a chemist for over 3 years--you become a psychonaut yourself.
 
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^ I recollect that Shulgin reckoned Claviceps paspali would be an ideal starting point for a three step(?) synthesis of LSD.

I found the reported effects particularly interesting.:)
 
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I think it's C. paspali that's the species used for the production of LSD in batch culture by adjusting the available nutrients. I've lost the copy I used to have and really need to find someone I can scrounge a copy from (anybody volunteering to send me a copy?)
 
sorry, double post.

Fastandbulbous said:
I think it's C. paspali that's the species used for the production of LSD in batch culture by adjusting the available nutrients. I've lost the copy I used to have and really need to find someone I can scrounge a copy from (anybody volunteering to send me a copy?)
 
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I'd like to see a copy of that paper too if possible.

Dallisgrass (paspalum dilatatum) grows in 24 states and the seed heads are often infected with the fungus Claviceps paspali.

From the druglibrary link posted above:

As to the Paspalum-ergot hypothesis, I must say at first that I have not come across any reference about the ingestion of C. paspali by man, either accidentally or on purpose. It is only known that a neurological disorder, Dalligrass poisoning also called "paspalum staggers", occurs when cattle graze Paspalum dilatatum infected with the fungus Claviceps paspali (COLE & AL., 1977; SPRINGER & CLARDY, 1980; GALLAGHER, LEUTWILER & AL., 1980). Clinical signs of paspalum staggers are tremors, which are exaggerated by enforced movement, hyperexcitability and ataxia. Mortalities from the disease are generally caused by accident or inability of affected animals to obtain water. Affected animals generally recover from the disease if removed from the toxic pasture.
At least five tremorgenic substances were isolated from Claviceps paspali, three of them were named as paspaline, paspalicine and paspalinine. With the Paspalum-ergot hypothesis there are two possibilities:
1) The paspali metabolites, which are soluble in most organic solvents (COLE ET AL., 1977), are not water soluble, or at least not in a sufficient grade to have been extracted in the kykeon. If these alkaloids accumulate mostly intracellurarly in oleosomes as do ergopeptides in Claviceps purpurea, then it is reasonable to conclude that they were not in the kykeon in toxic quantities.
2) If the paspali metabolites are water soluble and accumulate mostly extracellularly like simple Iysergic acid derivatives and clavines, it would mean that the kykeon must have been tremorgenic at least. There is, of course, some possibility that the paspali alkaloids produce toxic symptoms only in cattle and mice, but this is to my opinion extremely low possibility.

Agronomy
Guidelines for the establishment and management of sown pastures.

Establishment
It can be sown at any time from spring to late summer, although best sown just before the expected rainy season since germination and establishment can be slow. There is some post-harvest dormancy . While seed is generally drilled or broadcast into a well-prepared, fine, weed-free seedbed, it can also be sown directly into rice stubble without further seedbed preparation. It is normally sown at 5-10 kg/ha, and preferably placed less than 1.5 cm deep.

Fertiliser
P. dilatatum can persist in a weak state on infertile soils, but is usually dominated by inferior species such as Axonopus fissifolius in these situations. The trend towards Axonopus dominance can be easily reversed with the application of 100-150 kg/ha of fertiliser nitrogen. The use of strategic applications of nitrogen to paspalum can thus play an important role in extending the grazing season of this grass . Levels of other nutrients, particularly phosphorus, should be monitored and maintained.

Compatibility (with other species)
Although P. dilatatum is not overly competitive in its own right, the only legumes that are compatible with it are those that can tolerate the same grazing regime. Because of its slow establishment, other more rapidly establishing, but possibly shorter-lived grasses such as Chloris gayana and Setaria sphacelata are sometimes sown with it. Cool season legumes can be established into it by oversowing or sod-seeding during winter dormancy .

Companion species Top

Grasses: Acroceras macrum , Axonopus fissifolius , Chloris gayana , Setaria sphacelata .
Legumes: Arachis pintoi , Lotus uliginosus , Trifolium repens, T. semipilosum , Vigna parkeri .

Pests and diseases
The main disease is ergot, caused by the fungus, Claviceps paspali. The disease first appears in the form of a dark, sticky exudate from the spikelets or "seed". A sclerotium replaces the caryopsis , and secondary fungi grow on the exudate. Anthracnose (Colletotrichum graminicola) and leaf blight (Helminthosporium micropus) also attack the plant but have little effect - similarly paspalum striate mosaic virus transmitted by a leafhopper ( Nesoclutha pallida (obscura); Cicadellidae).
Roots are attacked by the larvae of a number of scarab beetles, caudata canegrub (Lepidiota caudata), white grub (Rhopaea paspali), and the african black beetle (Heteronychus arator) which reduce pasture productivity and open swards. Argentine stem weevil, (Listronotus bonariensis: Coleoptera: Curculionidae) is also recorded as a pest, but damages softer species more severely. The sugar cane borer (Diatraea saccharalis: Lepidoptera: Pyralidae) sometimes attacks it.

Ability to spread
It spreads readily by seed where conditions are suitable for germination. Vegetative spread is extremely slow. Although a slow establisher and with the impediment of disease of the inflorescence , it has been a remarkably successful coloniser.

Weed potential
It is considered a serious weed of turf.

Feeding value
Nutritive value Top

It declines markedly in feeding value as it matures. Digestibility ranges from 57-63% and crude protein (CP ) can range from 4-23%.

Palatability/acceptability
In the pre-flowering stage, it is very palatable. Mature growth, particularly when associated with ergot-infected inflorescences, is less attractive to stock.

Toxicity
The grass itself is not known to be toxic, but seedheads parasitised by the ergot fungus, Claviceps paspali, whether in pasture or in hay , can be toxic due to production of tremorgenic pyridine alkaloids in the sclerotia, which appear in late summer or autumn. The yellow-grey sclerotia are round, roughened, and 2-4 mm in diameter. Various alkaloids are identified in the literature as being isolated from C paspali sclerotia, although not all may have clinical effect: agroclavine, chanoclavine, elymoclavine ergine, ergovaline, ergonovine, isoergine, lysergic acid N-1-hydroxyethylamide, paspaline, paspalicine, paspalinine, paspalitrem A and B, and two unidentified ergoline alkaloids. Rations containing >0.6% of ergot are potentially toxic. Affected animals (all classes of livestock) at first show excitement, distrust of people and a tendency to attack. Later they tremble, appear to lack muscular control, stagger and may fall. They recover in a few days if removed from infected areas in the early stages of excitement. Recovery follows removal of the animals to feed not contaminated with sclerotia of C paspali. Topping of the pasture to remove affected seed heads has been effective in control.

The question I have is what's the difference if any between paspalum distichum or knotgrass (mentioned to be a high contender in the CWE of the kykeon by Dr. Hofmann himself, and paspalum dilatatum (dalli(s)grass) ?

I will have to research this--please post any info if you find anything.

There are several pages on Paspalum dilatatum (Dallis Grass) in the LSD book by Otto Snow but I don't have it handy to reference.

Study on effects of claviceps paspali eaten by animals: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=625600&dopt=Abstract

See "The Secret of the Kykeon" by Peter Webster on-line for much more on claviceps paspali:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cach...eps+paspali+tremors&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us

Peter Webster:

The proposed psychoactive ingredients of C. purpurea, ergonovine and methylergonovine, are not exceptionally psychedelic when taken as synthesised compounds, nor have preparations of C. purpurea been made and pharmacologically tested which demonstrate it might have been of a psychoactivity presumed sufficient to have provided the undoubted powerful psychedelic reaction to the kykeon.

Objection 3. Concerning the C. Paspali variant of the hypothesis, it is objected that this fungus is known to produce tremors in cattle grazing on infected grass, and, similarly to C. purpurea, that no one has processed the fungus into a preparation shown to be psychedelic to a degree in agreement with the properties of the kykeon.

Although true, this objection is not as serious, for C. paspali does indeed exhibit an alkaloidal spectrum similar to that of ololiuhqui and we may intuit that it could well have had potent enough properties for the kykeon on the basis of its close similarity to a known psychedelic preparation. And perhaps we may find that different strains of C. paspali, grown perhaps on different hosts, have an even more psychoactive capability than the naturally-occurring wild variety that must have grown in ancient Greece. Indeed, C. paspali has been well researched in the quest to produce lysergic acid alkaloids in saprophytic culture, and is known to exhibit strains producing high yields of ololiuhqui-type alkaloids. Perhaps the secret of the kykeon can be elucidated further without the immediate necessity to conduct the human pharmacological trials required by the objectors.

The C. purpurea naturally parasitising the barley crop was unlikely to have been the active ingredient as discussed above, even though it surely must have been common. Its alkaloidal content is, and presumably was, only moderately psychoactive, and with unfavourable side-effects. C. paspali is a far more likely candidate on the basis of its alkaloid content. In addition, if C. purpurea were the active ingredient, and easy to process with a simple water extraction, could the secret so easily have been kept for so long?

Naturally-occurring C. paspali could not have been the ingredient by itself. Growing wild, it probably wouldn't have been reliable enough to produce the quantities necessary, and collecting large amounts would have easily been observed by spies, and the recipe become easily known.

The requirement for large amounts of the active ingredient, available on demand, indicates that the priests must have grown the supply. Although artificial cultivation of ergot using contemporary methods is tricky and requires considerable skill and equipment, the secondary infection of grasses by using a solution of the honeydew produced by already growing ergot is straightforward. What makes this hypothesis interesting is that, using honeydew from C. paspali growing on the wild grasses surrounding the barley fields, the priests could have infected significant quantities of the young barley with C. paspali, thus producing from the barley a variety of ergot containing the ololiuhqui-type alkaloids. Although C. paspali only rarely infests barley on its own account, perhaps because its ascospores find it difficult to penetrate the growing grain, the secondary infection of barley by honeydew solution of C. paspali should be far more successful. The resulting ergot might even exhibit an alkaloidal spectrum superior to that of wild C. paspali.

The proposed method requires no special equipment or technique, only the knowledge that it works. It could have been discovered by accident, and a knowledge of exactly what was happening also unnecessary; only a knowledge of trial-and-error methods and results was required. Such a procedure could have easily been accomplished by the priests, and in addition, the procedure and the true reasons for it could have easily been concealed by pretending that it was a rite or ceremony having entirely other reasons for its performance. A blessing of the young barley, in which the priests roamed the fields whilst shaking "sacred water" on the young grain (to "promote its growth," perhaps) from a receptacle not unlike those used to disperse "holy water" by Catholic priests, would have been a ceremony well separated in time from the Eleusis ceremony, and its purpose easily disguised as something else entirely. For a certain portion of the barley crop, on certain fields, the "holy water" would have been a solution of C. paspali honeydew, and for the rest, plain water. Thus only the priests would have known where the active ergot was growing. The parasitised barley would have been harvested normally, the priests selecting a quantity for the kykeon which to all outsiders seemed the exact equivalent of the entire crop, yet this portion would have the psychedelic ergot growing on it, while the rest of the crop would have the normal infestation of C. purpurea. Neither would spies suspect ergot of being the ingredient, as it was common in the form of the dark spikes of C. purpurea, and probably very well known as something toxic to be separated from the grain as much as possible.

C. paspali, growing in the wild grasses around the barley fields, also has a very different appearance than C. purpurea, and the grasses on which it grows mature earlier than the barley. Thus its honeydew stage would correspond well to the stage of the growth of barley most suitable for secondary infection. And to the uninitiated, C. paspali would probably have passed unnoticed, and not be suspected as an ergot. Even the priests might have been unaware that the honeydew on the weed grasses surrounding the fields resulted from an ergot. C. paspali is small, round and mostly light in colour compared to the dark purple and larger, elongated spikes of C. purpurea. Thus the priests could have collected some at the time when it was producing honeydew, perhaps in the process of "weeding" the fields, taken it to the temple and prepared a water solution for use in the infection of the barley. A modest amount of honeydew containing the C. paspali infestation would have been sufficient to infect a much larger amount of barley, thus satisfying the requirement that significant quantities of the active ingredient be available.

Rather than a blessing of the grain using honeydew-infected water, an alternative might have been that the hierophants simply cut some weeds at the edge of the field and used them to brush the young barley. Perhaps this might have been done as a ceremony indicating the belief that wild grasses, and ergot itself, were a primitive and debased form of the edible grains, and the intention of the ceremony to produce barley "primitivised" for use in the kykeon. Perhaps the secret of raising C. paspali on barley was originally discovered in such a fashion, and later a more complex procedure and rite evolved, such as the "holy water scenario" I have hypothesised. There seem a number of possible hypotheses that could be explored concerning the particulars of the "Paspali-on-Barley Hypothesis."

It remains now to try to repeat the proposed method, and if indeed C. paspali can be grown on barley by producing a secondary infection using the honeydew from a natural C. paspali infestation on Paspalum distichum, for example, the resulting ergots must then be analysed and their alkaloid spectrum identified. In The Story of Ergot by F.J. Bové, we read that "Dr. Robert Stäger of Bern, Switzerland, devoted his whole life to the discovery of hosts and parasites... In 1898 he began to systematically cultivate grasses and infested them with ergot - and then used the honeydew produced to infest and cross-infest other plants." From this research it would seem that the infestation of barley with the honeydew of adjacent-growing C. paspali is a distinct possibility worth researching
 
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fastandbulbous..are you looking for the following 30 page article?

Production of a New Lysergic Acid Derivative in Submerged Culture by a Strain of Claviceps paspali Stevens & Hall
F. Arcamone, E. B. Chain, A. Ferretti, A. Minghetti, P. Pennella, A. Tonolo, Lidia Vero
Proceedings of the Royal Society of London. Series B, Biological Sciences, Vol. 155, No. 958 (Oct. 17, 1961), pp. 26-54
This article consists of 30 page(s).

I belive this is the one where 1mg per 1mL (high amounts) of d-lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide resulted.

If it is a different one you are referring to, let me know.

It is possible, as Ott (2000 [1997-1998]) has suggested, that the enzymes in some strains of Claviceps fungi are capable of converting lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide to the diethylamide when fed to submerged saprophytic cultures (Arcamone et al. 1961). Lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide has one ethyl group (CH3CH2-) with an added hydroxy group (-OH) attached to a D-lysergic acid amide (ergine) molecule. Instead LSD has two ethyl groups (CH3CH2-) attached to a D-lysergic acid amide (ergine) molecule. The possible in vitro synthesis of derivatives of D-lysergic acid amide (ergine) from C. purpurea (Fr.) Tulasne described by Perrine (2000) indicates that there is the potential for the natural conversion of lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide to LSD in this species in vivo. It is likely that other artificial indole derivatives also occur in nature but have not yet been isolated from any species of fungi, flora or fauna.
 
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Good news. Persona, at the end of the edot thread mentioned in the 1st post of this thread has provided 4 important papers, so get them while you can.

Also, I contacted Professor Carl A. P. Ruck of Boston University to see what he thinks of the thread...because if this is true, it is truly ground-breaking.

He is the author of "Sacred Mushrooms of the goddess", "The Road to Eleusis", and many other books and papers. He is a cool professor.
 
In any case, Peter Webster and Professor Ruck both have read the thread and relayed a few comments that I included towards the end of the thread.
 
Bumped Because

I am interested to know of the people who read the experience reports of 'Skinners girlfriend' (I forget her user name, lysergide or something ?) if any of you have experienced anything which seemed to correspond to her experience in any way?
 
Yeah, me too..but that's all we have on it--you're referring to C. A. Kole. Somebody would have to track down skinner (in jail) and ask him to diverge the ergot recipe. Her book can still be found at alibris.com I think, it has sold out everywhere else (limited printing).
 
Zophen, in answer to your question, some new data has surfaced...not from the obscure chemist but from Lysergic:

A member on another forum posted these links...it's Lysergic herself giving a video presentation of more information concerning the ergot wine preparation and her +5 experience with it in dreams:

Quote:
Hi folks, did you all notice these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWfIIZdo1Vk&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7zQsoafwlM&mode=related&search=

(Ergot Wine, parts 1 & 2)

An articulate young woman describes her experience. Is this K A Cole mentioned earlier in this thread? Anyway, her enthusiasm for the potion perhaps gives us a glimpse of how an initiate of Eleusis might have considered their experience.

I think there are definitely aspects to this thread that have the potential to be of interest beyond the entheogenic community.
Very interesting...could have been they were growing "claviceps paspali" known to contain only the good alkaloids and none of the bad ergotism causing peptides...or then again maybe they were working with "claviceps purpurea" the dangerous ergot when "eaten" but supposedly not when "cold water extracted"...anyways here is her presentation.

It is highly unlikely that it was claviceps purpurea because you don't ever extract it with alcohol, as it would then pull out the bad ergotism causing peptides along with the good alkaloids.

This is potentially very dangerous, with loss of limbs, tremors, etc. possible, and is only presented for historical interest pertaining to "The Mystery of Eleusis" that went on for 2000 years outside Athens.

What I know about claviceps paspali (and it's not much):

In the book "LSD" by Otto Snow, there are a few chapters on claviceps paspali, the papers that persona presented, this stuff often infects dalisgrass grown on some pastures to feed livestock...grows in over 26 states and all over the mediterranean. I have seen dalisgrass seeds for sale on-line but not the actual claviceps paspalum sclerotia. If I'm not mistaken it contains all good alkaloids except for 4 or 5 tremor causing alkaloids (at least to cattle anyways) and I don't know whether they are water soluble or not--most likely not water soluble but someone would have to look up the alkaloids solubility in a merck index or do some research on it. I listed a few of them on page 7, I believe 2 of them are known as paspalinine and paspalitrem. There are no known records of a human consuming a cold water extract of claviceps paspali, it could be very dangerous to a feline due to the tremorous alkaloids, but I am no expet on claviceps paspali or claviceps purpurea, this is better left to more qualified researchers to explain.
 
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^ Thank you for that tregar, kind of interesting (understatement ;) ) in as much that quite a few of the topics touched upon bear more than a passing resemblance to a relatively recent experience that really had no precedent in my tripping career.

Excellent bits of footage, I thought she did extremely well to articulate it. :)

Whether anyone without some kind of inside knowledge of similar states would have any idea of what she was on about is highly unlikely , but those who have ought to 'get it' completely, I would have thought.

Thanks again! :)
 
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