• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Simultaneous Determination of Methamphetamine and Its Isomer N-Isopropylbenzylamine

I would direct you to page 36 of this link. It’s a bit dated but this is proof from the DEAs own analysis that there is truth to this happening “in the wild” … if it was found in 2007/2008, what’s to say it wouldn’t still be happening?
That's the report I mentioned in my first post, the 2008 microgram journal 😅

Regarding my previous post (the one you quoted), I apologize for the lack of clarity, I wrote it pretty quickly and didn't bother to explain what I actually meant.

N-iso has definitely been found in meth samples before, no one is disputing that, but most serious reports (specially the ones from the DEA) stopped mentioning it 7+ years ago.
Of course it hasn't completely disappeared from the face of the earth, it is occasionally found in samples (mainly in SEA/Oceania), but it seems that it's no longer a common cutting agent.

What I was mainly referring to was the incorrect assumption that a large percentage of today's meth is fake and that the quality has gone and continues to go downhill. Many "meth enthusiasts" seem to think that n-iso is everywhere and that it has pretty much replaced real meth, it has become a pretty widespread myth.
I actually used to think that n-iso was much more prevalent, but then I started looking into it and ended up changing my mind.
So, according to that narrative, n-iso is pretty much meth's evil twin... It's apparently active as a stimulant almost like meth, except for the fact that it can cause pretty much every side effect imaginable.

AFAIK that's almost entirely wrong (and I've done research about it), yet it keeps spreading. There are many posts talking about batches of fake meth all over the internet. Many of such posts can be more or less summarized as follows : "feels/looks similar to meth but it has to be fake because - some side effect, I don't feel euphoric, not the same as before, etc.- Therefore it's probably n-iso".

There's no connection between any of that stuff and n-iso, in fact it has never ever been found in any of those bad batches people are talking about (if anyone has a source to prove me wrong please share it).


The graphs I posted on the previous page show that purity declined during the period of ~2005-2009, this was due to a few factors such as new legislation(s) which limited the access to precursors. Interestingly, the decline in purity correlates with the presence of n-iso.

Somewhat ironically, I've seen many comments reminiscing about the product from the 2000-2010 era and describing it as superior compared to what we have today (which is significantly purer according to every reliable source).
Perhaps it's because many seasoned users went through their honeymoon phase somewhere during that time?

After 2009 the cartels managed to adapt to the situation and began implementing new processes to produce high quality d-meth (bypassing the need for pseudo/ephedrine). They clearly upped their game successfully, meth purity has risen dramatically since then (with a very minor dip around the year 2015).

Well, that ended up being a fairly long post. Guess I've said my piece.
 
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So, according to that narrative, n-iso is pretty much meth's evil twin... It's apparently active as a stimulant almost like meth, except for the fact that it can cause pretty much every side effect imaginable.

AFAIK that's almost entirely wrong (and I've done research about it), yet it keeps spreading.

exactly.
pretty sure N-isopropylbenzylamine lacks any affinity for monoamine transporters and should not produce any "high". or even any effects at all.

it seems to me that people just assume that taking large doses of meth would only produce "good" effects. ignoring that for the majority of people even 100mg is between 3 and 10x too much.
 
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I took a 10-strip of Gamma Goblin 150ug LSD the other day and nothing happened. Nothing. Zilch.

It's not because he's suddenly been taken over by the Mexicans who are producing fake LSD and flooding the market It's because I'm a moron and was shovelling that shit in week after week until tolerance was so total and complete that a rhinocerous level dose had zero psychoactive impact.

Meanwhile two tabs off the same blotter page turned a first-timer in a gibbering idiot who couldn't move for hours and who I really wished would just fuck off and die quietly.

I don't get why people are so in denial about tolerance.

For another example, about 6 weeks ago a 50 mg sniff of Ketamine had me looking right into the abyss of the k-hole and 100 more sent me plummeting to it's bottomless depths for an hour. Last night IV100 mg and a sequential total of 500 mg IM shots basically only gave me the same experience thanks to playing with it every few days since.

I'm so glad I've quit meth and care so little about it anymore.
 
Wait, if it's it not N-iso and it's just old crazy tweakers with fried receptors. Then how is racemic meth forming huge un-meth like shards?
There is obviously SOMETHING in the meth that's not meth because racemic, p2p derived meth, would not form shards. Right?????
N-Iso MAKES sense. There is an ad running for N-Iso on facebook right now, they actually put the N-iso on foil and start heating it to demonstrate ( I have to assume ) how meth like it is. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a shitty meth substitute intended for human consumption with unknown longterm side effects is being marketed on face book or meta. whatever.

N-Iso is so common here in the sf bay area, it's everywhere. I HATE this stuff. It's not like there is a shortage of drugs around here. I can buy just about anything DMT, acid, shrooms, ketamine, PCP, coke, crack, benzos, fentanyl, heroin, GHB etc etc and the quality is not an issue.
Also it's not like I haven't tried different sources. EVERYONE has the same exact generic shards. These shards are way too big to be just meth and racemic meth wouldn't even crystalize anyways.
The meth here is crap.
I would rather have some adderall instead of this bag of oversized, easy to smash shards that I'm looking at.
Or APHP, or NEP, really anything.

I deff think some people are lucky and get there shit before it's traded hands too many times.
racemic meth is already half as strong 50%l-meth/50%d-meth. Then add n-iso or similar to make it form crystals.
So if I'm lucky, and it's only been stepped on once, a gram would contain ".1" of the active isomer?

Probably time to quit.
 
Wait, if it's it not N-iso and it's just old crazy tweakers with fried receptors. Then how is racemic meth forming huge un-meth like shards?
There is obviously SOMETHING in the meth that's not meth because racemic, p2p derived meth, would not form shards. Right?????
The P2P-derived methamphetamine coming out of Mexico is no longer racemic; in fact, it's highly enantiopure (see: DEA Drug Threat Assessment 2020). They are resolving the enantiomers with tartaric acid on scale.
 
That's the report I mentioned in my first post, the 2008 microgram journal 😅

Regarding my previous post (the one you quoted), I apologize for the lack of clarity, I wrote it pretty quickly and didn't bother to explain what I actually meant.

N-iso has definitely been found in meth samples before, no one is disputing that, but most serious reports (specially the ones from the DEA) stopped mentioning it 7+ years ago.
Of course it hasn't completely disappeared from the face of the earth, it is occasionally found in samples (mainly in SEA/Oceania), but it seems that it's no longer a common cutting agent.

What I was mainly referring to was the incorrect assumption that a large percentage of today's meth is fake and that the quality has gone and continues to go downhill. Many "meth enthusiasts" seem to think that n-iso is everywhere and that it has pretty much replaced real meth, it has become a pretty widespread myth.
I actually used to think that n-iso was much more prevalent, but then I started looking into it and ended up changing my mind.
So, according to that narrative, n-iso is pretty much meth's evil twin... It's apparently active as a stimulant almost like meth, except for the fact that it can cause pretty much every side effect imaginable.

AFAIK that's almost entirely wrong (and I've done research about it), yet it keeps spreading. There are many posts talking about batches of fake meth all over the internet. Many of such posts can be more or less summarized as follows : "feels/looks similar to meth but it has to be fake because - some side effect, I don't feel euphoric, not the same as before, etc.- Therefore it's probably n-iso".

There's no connection between any of that stuff and n-iso, in fact it has never ever been found in any of those bad batches people are talking about (if anyone has a source to prove me wrong please share it).


The graphs I posted on the previous page show that purity declined during the period of ~2005-2009, this was due to a few factors such as new legislation(s) which limited the access to precursors. Interestingly, the decline in purity correlates with the presence of n-iso.

Somewhat ironically, I've seen many comments reminiscing about the product from the 2000-2010 era and describing it as superior compared to what we have today (which is significantly purer according to every reliable source).
Perhaps it's because many seasoned users went through their honeymoon phase somewhere during that time?

After 2009 the cartels managed to adapt to the situation and began implementing new processes to produce high quality d-meth (bypassing the need for pseudo/ephedrine). They clearly upped their game successfully, meth purity has risen dramatically since then (with a very minor dip around the year 2015).

Well, that ended up being a fairly long post. Guess I've said my piece.
 
Well, I'm not a chemist by any means. However, I quit IV meth 2 1/2 years ago due to horrendous side affects which everyone pretty much told me was in my head. Except I only used a year and only 1 or 2 shots a day. I knew my body. I knew something was wrong. But, I quit and went on my merry way. Decided (recently) to go back because, hey its been 2 1/2 years I'm sure my psycho brain has healed and I can use again. The stuff I was given by a good friend who proclaimed it was "totally safe" to inject (although he doesn't use that ROA) looked like the real stuff. I even did a little bump to make sure. Seemed ok. I took it easy, just a 2. Burned in my vein all the way up my arm. A little warm and fuzzy then heart rate of 170, cold hands and feet, headache, followed by afib, dizziness, near fainting, and a feeling of just yucky sketchiness. So, I did what I did 2 1/2 years ago only this time I have been clean so I know I'm not freaking crazy. I wasn't an all out balls to the wall woman. I worked. Ate. Slept. Functioned. And, then I started getting sick. But, I bought into the fact that it had to be me. It wasn't me. I know my body. I know what it feels like to do meth and I know what it feels like to slam something that isn't meth. I'm not complaining really. I know the risks. But, I would really like if people would stop ignoring that this is happening. When I ask if it is safe to inject the person in getting it from should either be 100% certain or say, i have no fucking clue. I believe, in all of my research, then and now it is ISO. But, in just a crazy, diluted, deranged ex-user. As much as I enjoyed my time with meth, it just isn't worth the crap shoot.
 
Well, I'm not a chemist by any means. However, I quit IV meth 2 1/2 years ago due to horrendous side affects which everyone pretty much told me was in my head. Except I only used a year and only 1 or 2 shots a day. I knew my body. I knew something was wrong. But, I quit and went on my merry way. Decided (recently) to go back because, hey its been 2 1/2 years I'm sure my psycho brain has healed and I can use again. The stuff I was given by a good friend who proclaimed it was "totally safe" to inject (although he doesn't use that ROA) looked like the real stuff. I even did a little bump to make sure. Seemed ok. I took it easy, just a 2. Burned in my vein all the way up my arm. A little warm and fuzzy then heart rate of 170, cold hands and feet, headache, followed by afib, dizziness, near fainting, and a feeling of just yucky sketchiness. So, I did what I did 2 1/2 years ago only this time I have been clean so I know I'm not freaking crazy. I wasn't an all out balls to the wall woman. I worked. Ate. Slept. Functioned. And, then I started getting sick. But, I bought into the fact that it had to be me. It wasn't me. I know my body. I know what it feels like to do meth and I know what it feels like to slam something that isn't meth. I'm not complaining really. I know the risks. But, I would really like if people would stop ignoring that this is happening. When I ask if it is safe to inject the person in getting it from should either be 100% certain or say, i have no fucking clue. I believe, in all of my research, then and now it is ISO. But, in just a crazy, diluted, deranged ex-user. As much as I enjoyed my time with meth, it just isn't worth the crap shoot.
That sounds pretty unpleasant for sure.

Btw I never said that bad or even fake meth doesn't exist, it certainly does. I got some fake meth once, looked a bit like the real thing but it was clearly unsafe to consume as it burned like some kind of plastic and didn't dissolve in water. Some dealers are scumbags, unprofessional, or both, and the purity will vary depending on the source and location.
But the average purity of crystal meth has been found to be high, pretty much better than ever (at least until 2020, I don't think the 2021 reports are out yet) and for sure way higher than other "hard" drugs like cocaine and heroin.


By the way. How did you figured out that is was N-ISO?



Obviously I don't know what you took but I don't think n-iso has strong stimulant effects like meth. The side effects you described after IVing could be caused by many things, including meth. I'm guessing "a 2" means 2 points (0.2g) ? Seems like a very high amount to take without tolerance(it really makes a huge difference), at least I know that I would definitely have a terrible time if I were to do the same.
 
That sounds pretty unpleasant for sure.

Btw I never said that bad or even fake meth doesn't exist, it certainly does. I got some fake meth once, looked a bit like the real thing but it was clearly unsafe to consume as it burned like some kind of plastic and didn't dissolve in water. Some dealers are scumbags, unprofessional, or both, and the purity will vary depending on the source and location.
But the average purity of crystal meth has been found to be high, pretty much better than ever (at least until 2020, I don't think the 2021 reports are out yet) and for sure way higher than other "hard" drugs like cocaine and heroin.


By the way. How did you figured out that is was N-ISO?



Obviously I don't know what you took but I don't think n-iso has strong stimulant effects like meth. The side effects you described after IVing could be caused by many things, including meth. I'm guessing "a 2" means 2 points (0.2g) ? Seems like a very high amount to take without tolerance(it really makes a huge difference), at least I know that I would definitely have a terrible time if I were to do the same.
I can't be 100% certain it was iso. I just did a lot of research, read alot of threats and found this site that seemed to explain what i was experiencing to the tee... https://fakestimwarnings.wordpress....h-n-isopropylbenzylamine-aka-n-iso-aka-death/.

I didn't experience any stimulate affects. Maybe I got a little warm, but not up and no euphoria. I felt weird, sketchy from the moment I hit. I used to do 20pts so I thought 2pts was a safe place to start. But, again I ignored that it didn't taste like meth and it was cloudy when I mixed it. It crumbled easily under my finger and I should have known better. It wasn't fun. I can tell you that if it had been meth giving me the effects I would have first gotten high and felt euphoric. It wasn't meth. I ended up taking 2 ambien and a few shots of 99 bananas and fell asleep. Woke up feeling somewhat better, but still the headache and high heat rate and muscle aches. Brain fog comes and goes. I will be more careful from now on if there is another time, but I'm leading toward no. I just believe that if someone is selling product they are responsible for what is in it in a moral sense and that iso is never to be IV injected. EVER. IN the end, however, Iam responsible for knowing what I'm putting into my vein and I sound have been more careful. Hopefully I will be 100% tomorrow.
 
Yeah I’m just going to say for those of you who say you’re getting legit meth, you really are luckier than me which is weird giving the fact that I do have crazy ass connections (( not bragging, just passionate about the drug FROM BACK IN THE DAY WHEN IT REALLY WAS CRANK NOT FAKE )).

So when my Hollywood princess tells me she’s got fire 🔥 and we snort lines and it’s the same olé nice burn in the nostril but nothing more than just a little sweating, dry eyes and throat and stuffy nose but no energy or euphoria just more side effects like jaw clenching then you kind of give up on the whole damn thing.

Bottom line is you need pseudoephedrine and LOTS of it if you want good dope! I wonder if it’s any better in Afghanistan.. weren’t they using ephedra plants like wise cooks should be doing.

Maybe their crank is worth looking into unless the damn cartel or china fucks got their dirty ass hands on it and it’s been stepped on one too many FUCKING times! Let’s not forget the DEA and if those cunts hadn’t existed in the first place we’d still have the magic ingredients that once made drugs that actually worked and got you HIGH AF! Now it’s nothing but disappointing so please stop being in denial and start being cynical and real like me lmaoo I’m only half kidding dont mine me I’m just grumpy without some good quality meth to cure my adhd and boredom!!! 🥳
 
I think honestly what's going on may be that the regulations involved in securing the various chemicals needed to manufacture many known street drugs has left the “cooks” scrambling, at times, to find workable substitutes. Sometimes they will hit on combinations that are too strong, like fentanyl, where too many people overdose too easily. Most often they will end up using a “filler” type substance that allows the basic drug to still be there, just in a less amount and so the product is weaker.
 
That’s not to say there wasn’t a lot of l-meth in there.
Exactly. I believe that levo-meth is responsible for most of the experiences & bad effects for which the "n-iso" was and still often is blamed.

I don't understand why is it so little talked about or considered even by experts.
For example I've read a case study about meth-use induced pancreatic damage in an overdosed user,
They say that the ischemic damage of pancreas was caused by vasoconstriction caused by "meth" (dextrometh).
Now, at doses leading to comparable amounts of dopamine release, levo-meth is a much stronger vasoconstrictor than (dextro)meth.
And that study is from around the time, when racemic or even pure levo was already becoming more common.
But the toxicology test they used didn't consider levometh at all. Unless I'm wrong. There was just some codename of the test in the study, and when I looked it up, there was a list of substances it looks for, and levometh wasn't on it, so i don't know whether the test was insensitive to chirality and thus the mentioned concentrations could have been either enantiomer or any mixture of both, or if the test involved chromatography of some kind which separates enantiomers, thus the mentioned concentrations were just of dextro and levo wasn't included at all.
Either way, I found it strange that levometh wasn't mentioned at all, in the context of meth + vasoconstriction related ischemic damage.

So it would be much more useful, if someone came up with some simple, DIY doable test which would show levo to dextro meth ratio.
Detecting just the presence wouldn't be enough, as for example racemic vs enantiopure levo makes a huge difference.
Even if levo-meth and racemic isn't incredibly common everywhere, it can do a lot of damage to someone, who buys levometh and thinking it's just a heavily cut dextro and just taking more will be fine...

And regarding "n-iso" being blamed by users, it's not very surprising considering that the presence of "n-iso" is very obvious to them, while testing for presence of levo-meth is kind of impossible for them. And both started occuring around the same time, so it wasn't completely unreasonable to blame 'n-iso'.
Esepcially if even for users who make the effort to test their stuff before using, even for them it seems just like "n-iso" + meth, as using their easily available TLC + reagents they couldn't notice levo... and even many of lab tests an individual can order don't involve some chiral kind of chromatography.
 
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See this is what happens when the fucking DEA sticks their nose where it doesn’t belong. If they were never created drugs would still be pretty fuckjng BOMB! At least they’re doing it right in Canada:

 
So it would be much more useful, if someone came up with some simple, DIY doable test which would show levo to dextro meth ratio.
Detecting just the presence wouldn't be enough, as for example racemic vs enantiopure levo makes a huge difference.
Even if levo-meth and racemic isn't incredibly common everywhere, it can do a lot of damage to someone, who buys levometh and thinking it's just a heavily cut dextro and just taking more will be fine...
You can determine whether you have racemic meth using a Polarimeter. There are numerous ways to make one at home. It is a popular kids Science Fair project to construct one. Then you can calculate the % of each isomer. It’s kind of weird that nobody claiming all Mexican (or whatever) meth is racemic or levo has bothered to do this.



 
using a Polarimeter. There are numerous ways to make one at home.
Thanks. Didn't know they are so easy to DIY. I can't imagine an average meth user caring enough, might be still useful for many.
claiming all Mexican (or whatever) meth is racemic or levo
Definitely not "all" & not now. The worst reports i've seen yet ~10 years ago, when >33% of meth wasn't dextro in some (sounth/central US) areas.
Since then, it declined by a lot there, but it's still reoccuring in various countries @ various times.
I don't think it will just go away, while having the levo as a side-product will be giving people ideas.
War on drugs once again achieved the opposite of what it claims to be its purpose... When people were able to easily extract pseudoephedrine from pills & source HI & red phosphorus & make their own dextrometh, they had no reason to perform dangerous shake'n'bake in PET flasks (to avoid contact with water and getting gakked), there was much less levo with its negative side-effects, and cartels had less control because people had a relatively easy&safe alternative option of making their own.
 
Polarimeter
Although real world mixtures may contain also an achiral adulterant, adding a third variable, thus allowing infinite possible interpretations of the measurement.
Like levo:achiral:dextro ratio of 1:1:2 (third of the meth is levo - not great) results in the same angle of rotation (ofc assuming same concentation, temperature, length etc) as 0:3:1 (no levo - OK).
But still useful, as it would at least allow users to see if the ratio is better or worse than racemic, and avoid using it if it's racemic or worse.
 
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Although real world mixtures may contain also an achiral adulterant, adding a third variable, thus allowing infinite possible interpretations of the measurement.
Like levo:achiral:dextro ratio of 1:1:2 (third of the meth is levo - not great) results in the same angle of rotation (ofc assuming same concentation, temperature, length etc) as 0:3:1 (no levo - OK).
But still useful, as it would at least allow users to see if the ratio is better or worse than racemic, and avoid using it if it's racemic or worse.
I’d wash the meth before trying the test. Depending on what the adulterant is you might get rid of it.
 
I’d wash the meth before trying the test. Depending on what the adulterant is you might get rid of it.
That could help. I was considering separating it using chromatography, but that's annoying to do, and the resulting amounts are too small.
Actually the amounts of material needed seems to be the biggest issue of using polarimeters for this.
The DIY ones seem to all have quite big inner diameters of the cuvette, so to get reasonably readable rotations, quite a lot of material is needed... At least one whole gram in the best case, but often even 10s of. (or even much more needed for projects meant for demonstrations at schools, as those are designed big deliberately, to make it easily visible for the whole class.).
Although a polarimeter more useful for this purpose could be designed.
 
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Just what the science forum needed. Tweaker home videos. Might go better in Drug Culture.

That could help. I was considering separating it using chromatography, but that's annoying to do, and the resulting amounts are too small.
Actually the amounts of material needed seems to be the biggest issue of using polarimeters for this.
The DIY ones seem to all have quite big inner diameters of the cuvette, so to get reasonably readable rotations, quite a lot of material is needed... At least one whole gram in the best case, but often even 10s of. (or even much more needed for projects meant for demonstrations at schools, as those are designed big deliberately, to make it easily visible for the whole class.).
Although I was told that an affordable polarimeter much more useful for this purpose could be designed. (asked a friend who has experience with designing a photoacoustic spectroscopy device)

They have circular polarimeters on alibaba for sale for about the price of a gram of meth in Australia. They are quite small so would not require huge quantity of product: possibly chinese knock-offs of the israeli model in the second link

Despite no longer consuming meth that’s almost cheap enough for me to buy to do this experiment on some local product



 
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