shrooms and lsd

[markosheehan]

is LSD safer than shrooms cause if you look at the theraputic index of shrooms its 641 but for lsd its around 4400. so its considerably higher for lsd. im wondering just in terms of physical health. i go of the theory that because lsd's lethal dose to effective dose ratio is a lot higher than shrooms lethal dose to effective dose ratio. people use these ratios as an indiacation of the chances of you overodosing and dying but im wondering if you could use them as a overall guide to how safe physically the drug is. i will compare alcohol and shrooms. shrooms ratio is higher than alcohol so i take 2 things from this its easier to die from overdose from alcohol, and on a general level of consuming both drugs roughly equal to there effective doses that alcohol is more dangerous for you. this is a guess but when i look at how true this is its quite accurate. so im using the same logic with shrooms and lsd. even when consuming regular doses of both shrooms and lsd could i not conclude shrooms are more bad for you compared to lsd. people might agree with want im saying but about 95 percent of the time what i saying true. take any 2 drugs and do what i have said and you will find out its true.

do people think i can conclude this or not

 

[Cdkman]

It is relative to the person I think..some ppl might have adverse reactions to lsd and with shrooms being natural that risk could be lessened...I've felt sick to my stomach on the come up of both lsd and shrooms but that could be anxiety..if I had to pick I'd say mentally and physically lsd is safer because it's more predictable..there's so many strains of shrooms but only one lsd

 

[Cream Gravy?]

I think it's irrational to worry about the espoused LD50 of two drugs that have literally never killed a single human being (and that elephant death was very dubious, they shot it up with a plethora of drugs).

 

[markosheehan]

People have died from taking shrooms.people have died from LSD aswell I'm pretty sure. I feel my theory is correct. I can roughly say LSD is 7 times safer than shrooms

 

[Cream Gravy?]

People have died from taking shrooms.people have died from LSD aswell I'm pretty sure. I feel my theory is correct. I can roughly say LSD is 7 times safer than shrooms

Could you kindly provide some links to the autopsies/coroner's reports on these deaths?

I'd love to see you prove me wrong, if anything just because I really don't think you can.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Psilocybin and LSD are 2 of the safest drugs on earth, purely in terms of physiological effect

 

[Durzo1258]

Could you kindly provide some links to the autopsies/coroner's reports on these deaths?

I'd love to see you prove me wrong, if anything just because I really don't think you can.

And make it people dying from OD, not because they did something stupid while on them.

 

[Ayahuascalobster]

Me personally, I've never really gotten visuals from shrooms too intensely. From acid though? I've gone to another dimension or two.

I've heard of other people saying it's the opposite for them. But who's to say that getting visuals makes something worse :D

I still love shrooms. I love taking 2 grams and going for a walk in the woods and feeling really euphoric and altered state of mind...but I've never really tripped balls from shrooms, even when I've taken 1/8th-5 grams...wouldn't take more than that. But with lucy I've taken 2 tabs of alright cid and the patterns on the wall started dancing to the song I was playing.

 

[cj187]

Just because mushrooms have a lower therapeutic index doesn't mean they are more harmful at normal doses. Mushrooms and acid are both completely harmless unless you're taking hundreds of doses at once. 641 is a very high therapeutic index. If you drank 50 glasses of water at once you would die, but you could take 50 doses of mushrooms and be completely fine. By your logic, that would mean that drinking a glass of water is harmful compared to tripping on mushrooms.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

And make it people dying from OD, not because they did something stupid while on them.

Precisely.

Just because mushrooms have a lower therapeutic index doesn't mean they are more harmful at normal doses. Mushrooms and acid are both completely harmless unless you're taking hundreds of doses at once. 641 is a very high therapeutic index. If you drank 50 glasses of water at once you would die, but you could take 50 doses of mushrooms and be completely fine. By your logic, that would mean that drinking a glass of water is harmful compared to tripping on mushrooms.

Good point, very astute. I even knew a kid who got water poisoning at a summer camp when I was young; he never drank water again a day in his life... Not 8)

 

[markosheehan]

You can't read compare it to water as it's effective dose is considered the same as a psychoactive Drug

 

[markosheehan]

Go onto erowid and shroomery and look at fatalities. A person dies from cardiac arrest. There is also a a report of some one who did 320000 micrograms of LSD IV and died from respitory depression or arrest I forget

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Well since you're too lazy to back up your own arguments, I went ahead and checked out the sources on Erowid; not sure where you got your assumptions from but there are no reports of death via confirmed LSD overdose on there, nor did I even see any about an induced cardiac arrest nor respiratory depression.

There's those 8 people who accidentally snorted crystal thinking it was coke, but they all came out fine and had taken literally hundreds to thousands of doses a piece.

Once again, I put the burden of proof upon you.

 

[Solipsis]

You can't use that as an argument for general safety without more of a context... You can get a cardiac arrest from exercising under some circumstances, but people usually wouldn't argue that exercising is unhealthy. There are potential risks everywhere, but under normal circumstances the chance of something happening can be negligibly low. Living itself is fatal, you cannot eliminate every risk. With tripping, if you cannot tolerate the inherent risk of even the safest psychedelics known to man you shouldn't trip, it's as simple as that.

With a medical condition like elevated blood pressure, you'd need to roughly get a picture of what kind of factors you can tolerate and stay within reasonable blood pressure range. From trying random activities that elevate your blood pressure some more (monitoring your BP) and then titrating a psychedelic like mushrooms or LSD. By starting super low and slowly trying higher dosages you will be able to see whether the effects on your blood pressure stay within reason before you get into actual problems. Then if can reach active tripping doses and BP is still ok, congratulations you can trip alright.

It just doesn't get any more ideal than that so I wish you would accept that as fair or just forget about the whole thing.

Working yourself up about LSD fatalities involving more than a thousand standard doses IVed is beyond any proportion.

Also: no it is no help trying to glean safety off of therapeutic index in the way you are trying. You are looking for safety on blood pressure and the therapeutic index is not specifically about that. The general physical safety of mushrooms and LSD is excellent, so forget about that or give up on psychedelics. It's fair to want to look for the most blood pressure safe psychedelic, but not exactly sure which one that is. It still seems good to titrate LSD if you are worried about mushrooms, or just see if you can find info on blood pressure effects of different psychedelics... but it may be difficult to predict and data is limited on all these different phens and trypts.

 

[markosheehan]

I'm on my phone so its difficult to link studies now but I will later. I'm not concerned about blood pressure. In the OP my main question was can I use the theory on comparing overall safety of drugs in effective doses to there lethal doses. Take any 2 drugs and it's 95 per cent of the time true. I still feel my theory is more or less correct.

 

[Solipsis]

How do you even measure how bad a drug is at a standard dose? Different toxicities can be like comparing apples and bananas. Some things become only toxic above a certain threshold but are perfectly fine below it and will never kill you if you take 10 times less than that. Other toxicities are linear and dose dependent.

Other than that, if you take a therapeutic index which does refer to some predetermined toxicity then yes it does suggest something about safety of course. In case of LSD and mushrooms, what are even the types of toxicity you are thinking of when taking doses considerably lower than what is considered a toxic dose?
I think at that point the 'lottery ticket' odds more worth considering are those of preexisting medical conditions that make an individual much less tolerant to certain changes in physiology even if they are not normally that threatening. Which completely confuses ideas about whether it is treatening to a healthy person.

The hardest to measure toxicities are chronic ones, you probably need quite some metastudies or huge data crunching to find out correlations which are not even causations. They are likely to fly under the radar quite a bit so things like the LD50 which refers to acute toxicity primarily will help you none.

So, I think a little bit of your theory is self-evident and another bit cannot be concluded that way. I'm sorry, it's hard to really make use of such theories and it tries to simplify that is more complex, it might disregard chronic toxicities which may be much more relevant to safety. That is also why I don't believe in this rule of thumb.

 

[markosheehan]

Incident: Anonymous Female, 2012 #
In 2012, a 24-year-old female died following a cardiac arrest 2-3 hours after consuming magic mushrooms. She had received a heart transplant 10 years prior. Six months before her death she had had a clinic review and was "well with no physical limitations". The plasma levels reported in the autopsy suggest a fairly high dose of psilocybin-containing mushrooms.
Lim TH, Wasywich CA, Roygrok PN. "Letter to the Editor: A fatal case of 'magic mushroom' ingestion in a heart transplant recipient". Internal Medicine Journal. Nov 19, 2012 (online).1268-9.

Autopsy confirmed a healthy cardiac allograft (no allograft vasculopathy). Plasma toxicology revealed a psilocin level of 30 mg/L (consistent with magic mushroom toxicity) and a tetrahydrocannabinol level of 4 mg/L. No alcohol or other common drugs of abuse were detected. [...] Only two deaths have been previously reported directly attributable to magic mushroom ingestion ... We postulate that in this case excessive sympathetic stimulation of the transplanted heart as a result of Psilocybe mushroom toxicity led to fatal ventricular arrythmias."​

like even smoking green at normal effective doses is bad for your lungs. when i use the term effective dose it does not mean the minimal dose you can take without negative physical affects. it means the dose at which it is psychoactive.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4043895 here is one with lsd

I've done the calculations and they don't match. 200 micrograms of LSD=an eight of shrooms. LD 50 of LSD 12000 micrograms. So 12000/200=60. Ld50 of shrooms 1680grams [/COLOR]
So 1680/3.5= 480 I got my figures from wiki and the shroomery


[/COLOR]

this is kind of annoying. this source says the lethal dose of lsd is 100000 ug however on erowid and wiki it says the ld50 is 14000 ug so the lethal dose is 28000. how is there different values? ive also got other values aswell.

it says the effective of psilocybin is 6mg is this true? people say on this they take up to 40 mg
http://politicsofsin.50megs.com/risk/Toxicity.Comparison_Addiction.99,p686_2004.html how accuarate do people think this is. also this source kind of backs what im saying.

one thing im concluding from all this is most of the lethal doses with lsd and shrooms you see are probably wrong and are just estimates.they could be right but there just guesses. the reason of this because of the small doses to lethal doses. even though people have died from shrooms even in small amounts but i take it that there bodies were fucked up to begin with

Journal of the Kentucky Medical Association 75: 172-173 this guy did 320000 ug of lsd iv and he taught it was speed. even though it was iv thats still probably above the lethal dose or orally taking lsd. on erowid it says someone did 40000 ug and survived even though it says the ld50 is 14000 ug

 

[Solipsis]

- I have merged 7 posts, please use the edit button of an existing post to add more instead of making new ones, I also asked you repeatedly not to post in white and don't understand why you do this in the first place and ignore my request

- None of this actually tells us why either LSD or mushrooms would be "safer" in a standard dose (as measured by some ED50)

- You don't use anecdotal evidence to prove a theory

- This is starting to be more about toxicology theories than about LSD and mushrooms, this thread may get more proper responses in Neuroscience & Pharmacology if you want me to move it there (not many replies here), maybe you'll take something from them to at least 'adjust' your perspective, about what is knowable from available data, what is useful, how you might go about it...

 

[Yeahwhatever7]

I have done both the past couple weekends. I took 2 grams of shrooms last Saturday and I had a great light trip with tons of laughter and eventually falling asleep. Which I had no problem doing. Woke up feeling a bit fried and dried out but that was expected. Everything was great all in all.

Then yesterday.... oh man. Me and my cousin took a total of 5 drops of acid. (First time might I add) well besides the time I took one drop but barely felt anything. People said it was bunk.. anyways, I took 3 and my cousin 2 and it was all just a fuzzy dream after that lol. Litterlly. Me and him would come too every now and then and talk about the life we lived or something to that effect and the loose all focus and drift back into another demension, crazy but it felt like that. It's hard to to explain. What's also fucking crazy is the LAVA LAMP. mine was blue with green bubbles, also my room is blue too. So it litterly felt like I was laying on the bottom of the ocean with this glowing light around and change from every color you could possibly imagine. the drug. Really amplifies the surroundings your in and the colors your around. I faintly remember going outside with my cousin and it was cloudy as shit at night but I could still see the constilations through the clouds, like if I was almost parting them with my mind... anyways. As you can tell. Lsd definitely had more of a toll on me than shrooms but. I would say shrooms are ALOT safer and more organic than lsd. When I was on acid. I had a VERY hard time defining reality which was not the case when I was on shrooms. All minds are different though and you never exactly know what's gonna happen to a person when the take a hallucinogen. Me personally. I would never take 3 drops like I did... if I decide to do it again. I'll start with 2 and go from there. I should of taken into consideration when he said this shit is 98% pure but hey we live and learn

Ps. Once taken lsd. It never truly leaves your body and you can have an instant trip with out even taking a drop. That's why I say shrooms are safer. There's a lot of stories when people have died or gotten servly injured cause they were tripping with out even realizing it. Look up more research on it if you have doubts.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Ps. Once taken lsd. It never truly leaves your body and you can have an instant trip with out even taking a drop. That's why I say shrooms are safer. There's a lot of stories when people have died or gotten servly injured cause they were tripping with out even realizing it. Look up more research on it if you have doubts.

Okay, Markosheehan's information provided some somewhat correlating evidence (somewhat I say because I especially can't look at the actual medical data without paying for it and still seems to imply prior cardiac issues as the leading cause rather than the drugs) that some have died from cardiac issues with LSD/mushies.

But you? You sir are spouting one of the oldest myths in the book. I guarantee you're 100% wrong on that. I would like if you could provide some fact based evidence for these assumptions you made because some whacked out acid guy down the street told you.