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  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

Should we return to nature?

Having lived and worked in the mountains in BC for most of my life it has given me enough space and certainly reduced my interaction with people. Specifically random encounters, people I work with are much easier to deal with as I see them daily when working and rarely or never when I'm not working. Keeping home and work separated allows for much better relations on both ends.

Now (in the last 1.5 years) my perspective has shifted, once people were the bane of creation to me and it just seemed they were getting dumber with each new one I met. I really cant say specifically why (maybe crabby old man syndrome), but now I look forward to even random encounters. I want to see if they are awake by subtly engaging them. I've been shocked by a few I didn't expect to pick up on the crumbs I dropped. For me it is like finding my purpose late in life.

Regarding the dilemmas we are facing as a planet I don't agree with the need to thin out the herd. There is enough now and with a redistribution of labour and a world focused on surviving as a single tribe we will be able to even grow. Primarily though we need to get off planet now and succeed at it or any social economic plans we make will only last a few years. We need to face this task as a single entity, not a bunch of competing teams that will actively sabotage each other.

In looking at this issue over years I'm convinced we need to remake our economy from the ground up. I would suggest giving up money and the advantage we take over others with it and replacing it. In almost every scenario money and the scarcity of it are the culprit, eliminating it and becoming a single group with a purpose gives us back all the lost labour currently counting imaginary beans. Choices become clear when money is no longer a factor, it's served us well and produced a drive in some humans to excell.

We need to remove the decision making process from our government, none are competent enough to deal with our far more complicated society. Reforming how we decide which tasks we are doing next becomes simple when only those people affected by the results are involved in deciding. We, the citizens, need to make all decisions and our government becomes the tool to get it done. Right now it's just a joke and we all bitch loudly about how broken it is so let's just change it. Constitutions, like the ten commandments, may all be well and good for the group who wrote them in the place and time they were written but we are not them or in their world anymore and we need far more flexible control of our governance, we need real time social government with all citizens having active participation in their fields of expertise, their local, their areas of concern.

When I look at how we should be self governing the biggest issue was money or advantage that could be had by making selfish or greedy choices that had negative effects. Because of this I'm big on just getting rid of money entirely. I've considered just end banking but it will simply become a black market and most crime would continue if money was still used. Because of this we need a way to make luxury availabe and obtainable. I'd suggest reverse how people gain luxury, like tips for good service, I think the population should decide which corporate heads and which scientific advances should be granted luxury. If each year all citizens were allotted a number of 'perks' to hand out to anyone but themselves it would change corporate behavior from 'good for the bottom line' to good for humanity.

Again, I'm just one old man with a crazy Eddie plan, but because I exist there are more and some will have better plans. We keep repeating this war to save the economy, repeating what hasn't worked before seems insane to me. We have yet to try cooperation as a species, personally I'm for giving it a shot before we unleash a planet killing war over money.
 
I want to believe we could exist on a barter/trade system, but the problem is this, as I see it. Okay, everyone has their role producing something, that's essential to society, and in fact one of the biggest advantages of it. Rather than each of us needing a broad range of skills to simply survive (finding or producing food, making shelter, treating injury/illness, etc), we are able to leave most tasks to others, who specialize in those tasks, and then we are able to specialize too. In this way we have developed everything beyond hunter-gatherer society, including the Internet, computers, and everything else. The problem is that not all of those things are as widely needed as others. If you produce food, well, everyone needs food, so you could easily trade with anyone for anything you need. But what if you produce art, or microprocessors? Now it becomes much harder to trade your skill. It's still a valuable skill/product, but not everyone sees it as such or needs it. So, there needs to be some independent measure of "value", which you can use to trade with others for things of equal value. This is money, it's what it is. Our current money system is, without a doubt, problematic, but I think that's due to an inherent aspect of human nature, namely that some people (not all or even most) seek to gain power over others. Some people are dominators, I have dubbed them in my own lingo the "sociopathic power mongers". These people utilize whatever means they can to gain dominance over others. If the world were full of altruistic, good-hearted people, the money system would work fine. Religion would remain a benign cultural and spiritual tool. Governments would be for the people and would work for the good of everyone.

Unfortunately it seems there are always sociopathic power mongers among us. It's the root cause of all of our failings, I believe. Certain people gain power, and it's usually those who desire dominance, and they do it by perverting institutions to suit their purposes and control the masses in order to gain more and more power. They do this through money, they do it through government, and most significantly of all, they do it through religion. Hatred spreads via religion not because of religion itself, but because people have used religion, knowing it's the most powerful of motivators (your eternal soul's fate? What could be more important?), in order to further their agendas. Hey, we want this other group's land and resources. How do we get it, and not get the people to revolt due to the horrors of war inflicted upon fellow people? Convince them they need to hate this other group. The other group is "them", they're not worthy of love or even of life. They're all THIS way, not like US. They're a threat to us. They're infidels, or sinners. They're more or less sub-human. They're going to hell. God wants us to kill them.

Your average person wants a good life for themselves and their family, they want to be comfortable, have love, and have peace. Your average person does not want to hate someone they meet, or go to war, or dominate others. But through social programming and fear, instilled by insipid leaders utilizing social institutions, people are programmed to hate and separate and rather than viewing others as fellow humans, as neighbors, they begin to view others as enemies, as different, as worthy of hate. And now you see average people spewing hateful rhetoric at best, supporting hateful legislation, or hurting or killing others for their differences at worst. These acts of hate and violence are born from fear, a fear which was purposely instilled by a powerful sociopath. In some cases this was originally done a very long time ago and the ramifications are still being felt (in the case of religious hatred for example).

Money is a solid and in my mind a necessary idea in a developed civilization. Unfortunately it is also the means by which sociopaths can gain power over others.

I want to be hopeful we can get past our nature, but it replays itself over and over and over throughout human history.
 
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Xorkoth said:
I want to be hopeful we can get past our nature, but it replays itself over and over and over throughout human history.
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This is the crux of the issue and the point I always bring it back to - until we know who and what we are, all other efforts will just take us round in circles.

I agree that money is a solid idea. It makes sense, it works, and is the best system we've devised. So too is capitalism, minus the perversion of itself that it has become of late. The reforms that people think we need to enact don't change the nature of the issue, which is us. We can reform until the end of time and it won't be worth a damn. The sociopathic individuals that rise to the top exist in all strata of our social system, from upper to working class. That's why I can not get behind the false dichotomy of rich rulers vs the poor masses, it's nonsense - mental afflictions/psychic processes are not confined by arbitrary definitions of social class. It doesn't discriminate. And neither does the drive to succeed and make something of ones self, which is why money and a capitalistic system is fantastic - it affords the opportunity for a man to rise from nothing to become something, as opposed to just being a serf, peasant or downtrodden number in some dictators or kings kingdom.

Our leaders are representations of all of us. If they are garbage, then so are we. I highly recommend George Carlin's rant on the subject; "this is the best we can do folks, it's what our system produces.. garbage in, garbage out.". I don't think anyone else made that social commentary with that particular level of accuracy and rightful venom. We've got to understand and make peace with our nature first, there is no two ways about it.
 
I agree with you for sure. Topple one regime and another group of sociopaths takes it over and it becomes another thing that eventually needs overthrowing. Our system today does in fact allow individuals to make something of themselves, even though it's very corrupted at this point. Indeed, in many (most?) past times since civilization began, you were born into your station and unless you were very lucky, your life was overtly utilized for the benefit of someone else, often with horrific results.

I think democratic capitalism is the logical conclusion to reach for a system that is actually egalitarian and has a governing structure robust enough to hope to avoid descending into fascism/etc. It's a good system, it just, like all other systems, gets destroyed by the cancerous lure of power from some individuals.

It's a pretty grim philosophy, but it seems clear to me. Despite this I choose to appreciate the gift I've been given of being born at a particular time in a particular society where I actually live a pretty damn good life. Being upset about all the problems in the world doesn't get me anywhere or produce anything positive for anyone (I mean if I were to become active in politics or something I could make an attempt but that's not the sort of thing we're all called to do), so I try to be aware of them and make the best of what I have. Which is a pretty good thing: friends and family, the virtual assurance I won't die at any given day by starving to death or dehydration or being mauled by an animal or killed by roving bands of other humans (yes this is a threat, but think about what it was like in the time of warlords and kingdoms... think about how it is in some places today for people. We're sitting pretty, we have it good). The ability to peacefully occupy my own space where I choose to, and the ability to do what I want with my life. I get to order exciting new exotic psychedelic molecules on the Internet and explore the nature of awareness, I get to have the understanding of the fact that we're on a planet in the middle of a universe and that I'm made up of tiny universes. I get to have the Internet at all, how crazy is this shit? The ability to instantly communicate with anyone over any distance. The ability to see as much of the world as I try to see. It's fucking nuts. :)

Having these things doesn't override the problems in the world, not at all, but it is the other side of the coin. It's what we purchased by deciding to "civilize". I understand how it can be hard to appreciate it, but it makes sense how we got here, and I don't think I'd want to live in any other time that has happened thus far over this one. I just try to appreciate it. Self-hate for something you inherited from your ancestors is pointless and destructive.
 
Markomarkh said:
Hi all, everyday I wake up I sometimes think humanity is on the wrong path, there are three things I think are the worst inventions that have been devastating to humans and our earth and that is religion,money and digital technology or Internet.
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I'm curious as to why you think that digital technology is one of the worst inventions. Have you considered nuclear weapons also?

People seem to have more problems than ever these days like disease, mental illness, debt, wars, violence, cancer, loniness, depression, suicide and many more that we've really seen in the last 2000 years, we advanced to fast in the last 1000years we cant cope withit. Before 2000 years ago for 40 millions years since humanity began we lived closer to nature and lived more like the animals, like animals we didn't need money or Internet or modern tech to live.
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Humanity has not been around for anywhere near that length of time. Homo Sapiens are considred to be about 200,000 years old, though behavioural modernity is much younger still; hominids are about 2 million or so.

I would be wary of romanticising our earliest days. Read about evolutionary psychology which tries to explain what sort of environment gave rise to the current manifestation of human behaviour. For example, the male warrior hypothesis, which suggests that men and women have a tendency and ability to instinctively categorise other humans as in-group or our-group (or no threat/threat). We don't just wake up with an instinct, it evolves for a reason. Perhaps the reason was because early human world consisted of bands of marauding men coming to violently steal women/resources from other men, and so those who evolved a shoot-first mentality to outsiders survived.

There is a fair amount of evidence to suggest that our past was not blissful cavorting through a land of plenty, but battling and killing our way to victory or death.
 
SS I agree with you in regard to the change we need is really internal and we need to look long and open mindedly at who we are and what we are doing.

I do think I gave you the wrong impression when I said elected officials can't perform the job we require of them. I don't feel they themselves are terrible or inept, I feel the job is far too complex to continue doing it without oversight from the citizenry. We need to become active in government and I really don't mean in party politics. We need to participate in the process of decision making in the areas we are experts in. I realize that's more CE&P but without us taking control of governments decision making we will be inundated with useless addition government spending.

Xorkoth, I don't think barter and trade will work at all. I would avoid even suggesting that. We need to stop wasting human time counting money that is only an arbitrary representation of labour. We have 30% of our employed citizens counting beans, we need to stop. All those 30% produce nothing of value to society yet we feed them house them and cloth them with money we give to them for counting, housing and lending out money for us. I would suggest they actually bring stress to our world. My view is simple, if everyone is eating now and they really aren't working why not admit money is just another control system like religion, a bit more pervasive and with no promises beyond those of capitalism.

Right now money is far too important and we all end up needing it to simply survive, it's value falls so fast that we all must be expert wage negotiators or we are left behind. Why do we need to be experts in an area that isn't our personal speciality to survive in our own world?

Personally I have vision of where we could go if we decide to get along and just do it. If we truly want to survive as a species and leave this rock we wont do it by fighting. The issues with not getting along all lead back to the scarcity of money. We blame immigrants when we can't get a job because we know they are working for less. We quibble over other countries resourses and technology. We actively undermine other countries both economically and socially. We never needed to start this way but once we had set a course where everything in the world could be bought with money there was no other item worth human attention. We get money, then we get anything we want. Or so is the idea.

Reality, there is a finite amount of money in the world and a tiny few control the creation of more at a price they set. As humanity grows in numbers the money pool does not. As more people aquire vast wealth the money pool does not grow. As corporations pool huge capital assets this too comes out of the world pool of money. To have money you must supply something of value to someone who already has it. In today's economy that number of people who could buy your service is shrinking rapidly.

Letting go of money is a philosophical issue for each individual. I've been busy letting go of everything and when I did let money go I started to see where society could go without it. Eventually humanity will wake up and realize we are hurting ourselves and our species. Imagine years from now where should we be? Why don't we build huge solar arrays in the desert? We have resources and un-employed labour but no money. Same old tune, let's make a new economy that works. Let's not use money this time let's look at what will work permanently.
 
^I think climate change tells us that we never did and never really can escape from nature. We don't need to return to it, we never left.
 
Well of course everyone has a wide range of skills compared to insects, but nevertheless specialization combined with civilization is what allowed us to move beyond hunter-gatherer society. People who make something their career are specializing in something beyond the skills of most people, and producing something that most people can't produce. Could you have invented the Internet? Me either, but it got invented because a successive line of people specialized in studying and producing computers and related technology, and now we have it. They probably left the building of their houses, the food supply chain, the making of their car, and so forth to someone else.
 
swilow said:
^I think climate change tells us that we never did and never really can escape from nature. We don't need to return to it, we never left.
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exactly this. succinctly put, and something i've kinda been thinking about lately.
"nature" as a concept is a uniquely human construct, made up by humans that see ourselves as masters of this 'nature'. As conquerers, creators - gods.
the truth is almost the complete opposite of that; 'nature' creates us, supports us and destroys us. we can't escape it - even the act of dying is part of the natural path of life.
When mankind goes, i expect idea of nature ever having existed will be forgotten forever Unless some other creature evolves after us that actively seeks to identify who made the such a big mess of the planet, eons before them.
 
Agreed, although we didn't develop the idea in the wake of someone else fucking the planet up. We came up with a term to describe the natural world and processes, since we found ourselves able to ponder such things. I think the separation from nature idea probably happened primarily due to religion and human pathos... we're special. I mean we became the dominant species on the planet by any measure. Arrogance seems to be a part of humanity, traditionally at least. We must be special, look, we have mastery over shit and we can think about the fact that we do. Must be that we're god's chosen... obviously.
 
Have you ever realised that YOU are the product of billions of deaths, births, brutal honing, simple stasis, calamity, triumph, tribulation, interstellar trainwrecks, extinctions, struggle, battle, fire, blood, trees stretching to the spiral arms, ancient lions prowling primeval swamps, attempts, failings, success, endings?

In your body are quantum fluctuations and a taste for cheese. You get to use hands! The trilobites sacrificed everything for you.

Respect the force which gave you thumbs and yearning.
 
are you completely off your nut? and this is coming from someone with most of a PhD in ecology, which, btw, is the science of nature and not at all the same as environmentalism. do you have any idea what 'back to nature' would really mean? living like animals? what on earth makes you think wild animals live happy lives? my research is/way about the parasites of white tailed deer. do you know that the AVERAGE deer, on in good health, has 10,000 parasitic worms in it's body? when carnivores' teeth wear down, they don't get dentures, they starve, as do elephants. there were 60,000 cases of polio in 1953. three years later, after the vaccine was developed, there were 2,000 cases. besides, we can't exactly have 7 billion hunter-gathers. before agriculture and the neolithic, there were only 7 million people on the planet. 99.9% of the human race would starve.

now true, hunter-gatherers did/do have slightly more free time, especially the men. current studies give it about 2hrs less per day, though that's debatable. otoh, they also die when it doesn't rain enough, or when they get injured or sick, or just die as kids, etc. and i'm a big believer in the hygiene hypothesis. which is a is a hypothesis that states a lack of early childhood exposure to infectious agents, symbiotic microorganisms (such as the gut flora or probiotics), and parasites increases susceptibility to allergic diseases by suppressing the natural development of the immune system. In particular, the lack of exposure is thought to lead to defects in the establishment of immune tolerance.

you cannot stop technology, can't put the genie back in the bottle. we need it now and besides, we'd just invent it all over again.

if you're unhappy, you need to understand that that's a spiritual problem, and it can be fixed. that's what buddhism is all about. the four noble truths are:

1) Life is dissatisfying, 'Dukkha' exists for everyone - 'dukkha' is usually translated as 'suffering' but it only refers to mental pain.

2) Dukkha comes from attachment to desires.

3) Dukkha ends when attachment ends.

4) Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the Eightfold Path (right view, thought, speech, livelihood, action, effort, mindfulness, contemplation)

the suffering you see in first-worlders comes from addiction. addiction to cheap junk food, addiction to cheap made-in-china junk and when all else fails, just plain junk. we are taught from birth that getting new crap makes us happy, but it doesn't. as soon as you get that new car or whatever, your desire turns to emptiness and you just have to get more crap. we are addicted to pleasure, basically, dopamine. but real joy, spiritual joy, is something you are. it never fades. you can share it and still have it. it's peace and bliss and serotonin. but if all americans just suddenly went for being high off life and living simply, the global economy would crash faster than 9.8m/s^2.


personally, i also try to adhere to the 14 precepts of engaged buddhism, which are very demanding:

Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. Buddhist systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.

Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow-minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice nonattachment from views in order to be open to receive others’ viewpoints. Truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. Be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times.

Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others renounce fanaticism and narrowness.

Do not avoid contact with suffering or close your eyes before suffering. Do not lose awareness of the existence of suffering in the life of the world. Find ways to be with those who are suffering, including personal contact, visits, images, and sounds. By such means, awaken yourself and others to the reality of suffering in the world.

Do not accumulate wealth while millions are hungry. Do not take as the aim of your life Fame, profit, wealth, or sensual pleasure. Live simply and share time, energy, and material resources with those who are in need.

Do not maintain anger or hatred. Learn to penetrate and transform them when they are still seeds in your consciousness. As soon as they arise, turn your attention to your breath in order to see and understand the nature of your hatred.

Do not lose yourself in dispersion and in your surroundings. Practice mindful breathing to come back to what is happening in the present moment. Be in touch with what is wondrous, refreshing, and healing both inside and around you. Plant seeds of joy, peace, and understanding in yourself in order to facilitate the work of transformation in the depths of your consciousness.

Do not utter words that can create discord and cause the community to break. Make every effort to reconcile and resolve all conflicts, however small.

Do not say untruthful things for the sake of personal interest or to impress people. Do not utter words that cause division and hatred. Do not spread news that you do not know to be certain. Do not criticize or condemn things of which you are not sure. Always speak truthfully and constructively. Have the courage to speak out about situations of injustice, even when doing so may threaten your own safety.
Do not use the Buddhist community for personal gain or profit, or transform your community into a political party. A religious community, however, should take a clear stand against oppression and injustice and should strive to change the situation without engaging in partisan conflicts.

Do not live with a vocation that is harmful to humans and nature. Do not invest in companies that deprive others of their chance to live. Select a vocation that helps realize your ideal of compassion.

Do not kill. Do not let others kill. Find whatever means possible to protect life and prevent war.

Possess nothing that should belong to others. Respect the property of others, but prevent others from profiting from human suffering or the suffering of other species on Earth.

Do not mistreat your body. Learn to handle it with respect. Do not look on your body as only an instrument. Preserve vital energies (sexual, breath, spirit) for the realization of the Way. (For brothers and sisters who are not monks and nuns:) Sexual expression should not take place without love and commitment. In sexual relationships, be aware of future suffering that may be caused. To preserve the happiness of others, respect the rights and commitments of others. Be fully aware of the responsibility of bringing new lives into the world. Meditate on the world into which you are bringing new beings.
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Such incredibly branchy discussion to a seemingly simple one sentence seed...
 
great post, tantric. that's a really good way of putting it, from an informed perspective.
i think part of the problem with this question is the false dualism of nature and humanity, or nature and technology

humans exist within nature, but we've found countless ways to manipulate and alter nature for our own ends. some of this is incredibly beneficial to us, but some can be destructive and harmful to the health of the earth and the life upon it.
 
spacejunk said:
great post, tantric. that's a really good way of putting it, from an informed perspective.
i think part of the problem with this question is the false dualism of nature and humanity, or nature and technology

humans exist within nature, but we've found countless ways to manipulate and alter nature for our own ends. some of this is incredibly beneficial to us, but some can be destructive and harmful to the health of the earth and the life upon it.
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i go further. it's a ridiculous conceit to think that the products of our technology are unnatural, as opposed to a beaver dam. there's a very definite ecosystem to be found associated with human cities. that it's species poor is a result of it's age as a biome. you are part of nature - you cannot not be. also, there's no wilderness. every ecosystem on the planet has been drastically changed by the advent of human civilizations. funny story - when i was doing ecology grad work, we had our own building with a nice inner courtyard with a partial rafter roof covered by blooming wisteria. our program had a lab devoted to invasive exotic species and in the SE USA wisteria is such. one day i walked out and found instead of my beloved vine a very ugly stump, killed out of eco-correctness. so i went and made a comic style speech balloon out of paper and posted it over the stump, saying

the next time you want to get rid of an invasive species, try packing your own asses back to africa
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referring to the mass extinctions that followed h. sapiens as we invaded continent after continent. the racial angle never even occurred to me, i don't think in 'race'. i put it up thursday after work and skipped friday. when i came in monday, the witchhunt was in full swing. it seems the all black custodial staff had found it and taken it to the all white administration. they were actually going to call in lawyers. lucky for me i saved the vice dean's live just a week before when she was choking. i confessed and she swept it away. the students, btw, thought the whole thing was hilarious.
 
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