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Shooting Ourselves In The Foot

iksaxophone

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Jul 6, 2015
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The ego-dissolving power of psychedelics is something that has always been regarded as a positive, from Leary to McKenna to your average nut on the street (i.e. me). But is it all that great? What if all we are doing is giving our egos exercise in defending itself, making them even stronger in everyday life.
I mean, how many psych users do you know who profess Love and Peace and Acceptance but are in fact neurotic individuals whose egos require coddling just to function?
It's only anecdotal but I can name three.
 
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Psychedelics are not panacea. They can offer you a glimpse of the otherness, and that is
that. There is no automatic mechanism to make you integrate that you into your life.

The ancient Greeks had the mysteries of Eleusis, a religious festival that majority of populace
attended at least once in their lives. It is very possible that a hallucinogenic beverage containing
lysergic amides was consumed there sacramentally. We'd need an instititution like that, or
else a profession of psychedelic/psycholytic therapists. The current situation where these substances
are associated with crime and escapism is unfortunate.

As for the ego death, that is not the point. The wonderful thing is to see the ego rebirth.
 
Fair, I guess it makes sense that the rebirth is the point. I've never been far enough to experience that, I will keep that in mind when I get there.
I think the Eleusinian Mysteries were a great model as far as psychedelic institutions go. They associated the experience with a holy place removed from daily life but still safe, and (as far as I know) you could only partake once, ever.
Meaning it never lost its 'magic', and it could never turn into the sort of ego resistance training that I'm afraid of.
Or maybe each time you partake it is necessary to go as far as the deafh/rebirth?
 
Fair, I guess it makes sense that the rebirth is the point. I've never been far enough to experience that, I will keep that in mind when I get there.
I think the Eleusinian Mysteries were a great model as far as psychedelic institutions go. They associated the experience with a holy place removed from daily life but still safe, and (as far as I know) you could only partake once, ever.
Meaning it never lost its 'magic', and it could never turn into the sort of ego resistance training that I'm afraid of.
Or maybe each time you partake it is necessary to go as far as the deafh/rebirth?
It's not necessary, all depends in what you want to gain from it, most the time i just take recreational doses, but every now and then i want to dive in on a heavy dose and really test my ego. All depends on the person, they don't build up an ego tolerance or make it more defensive, in LSDs case, every time you take a ten strip you are almost garunteed to have an ego death, no matter how used to the substance you are you'd hafta be some sort of machine to resist that.
 
I agree they offer a glimpse of other forms of consciousness but it's totally depends on the individual and his or her circumstances what effect that has.

There is definitely a sentiment in the psychedelic community that psychedelics are good for you, but like you that has not been my experience with the psychedelic users I've met in real life. The majority have either been quite neurotic or had a serious substance abuse problem (or both). Of course I'm not necessarily saying psychedelics caused them to have a substance abuse problem, on the contrary I think psychedelics being somewhat illegal means people predisposed to substance abuse are the main people using them).

But I think psychedelics are only really beneficial when the circumstances are right. The irony is you have people like a friend of mine, who go around touting the benefits of LSD and mushrooms, while their own life is a total mess and they have serious mental problems everyone can see and a serious drug problem.
 
The ego-dissolving power of psychedelics is something that has always been regarded as a positive, from Leary to McKenna to your average nut on the street (i.e. me). But is it all that great? What if all we are doing is giving our egos exercise in defending itself, making them even stronger in everyday life.
I mean, how many psych users do you know who profess Love and Peace and Acceptance but are in fact neurotic individuals whose egos require coddling just to function?
It's only anecdotal but I can name three.

Well here's the thing. Psychedelics don't change who you are. If you're an egomaniac, psychedelics will further bring that out. Besides that, there are other ego games that even people who are not otherwise egomaniacs will sometimes display. Namely, some psychedelic users (and non-psychedelic users even) develop an ego trip on "enlightenment", and how they have superior knowledge to non-users. You see the same thing in many people who subscribe to "new age" beliefs. As an additional point of comparison to "new age" belief systems, some people who get into psychedelics begin to believe just about anything they experience or even read about that seems to jive with what they want to believe. In this way psychedelics can be damaging for some, because they make you more suggestible.

As for ego death, I feel that my experiences with it, especially my first one, did me nothing but good. It allowed me to completely step outside my individuated perspective for a bit, and upon re-entry, my worldview was changed for the better. It has allowed me to become a more selfless and accepting person. I would say, for me, that I have become less neurotic and more able to see the big picture outside of myself. Of course, I worked towards this. I had a period of being pretty out there, and a period of finding it difficult to live in the culture I grew up in, but I resolved these things and no longer have these issues. One damaging thing I see in a lot of psychedelic users, which I went through too and which I put down to youth and not having had enough time to really integrate the psychedelic experience yet, is this idea that the ego is a bad thing and should be escaped. This is not true, it's in fact nonsense. The ego is simply your sense of self as an individuated life form. The time for the ego to be obliterated permanently is death. Removing it temporarily can result in great insight, but trying to suppress it entirely, or too often, leads to escapism at best. We're here now to live life as an individual; whether or not that individuality is an illusion is irrelevant because we still wake up every day with this perspective and it is our experience.

Regarding drug addiction/mental illness and psychedelics, I think that is a correlation and not a causation. Many people who use psychedelics are the drug experimenter type, and at some point they are bound to tangle with addictive drugs too. And then some, but not all, develop drug problems, just like anyone who tangles with addictive drugs. Personally, I started smoking weed, then tried DXM, then MDMA, and by then I was ready to try just about anything. Psychedelics came next, and then I found opiates. I loved the feeling and so, innocently, I became addicted, slowly but surely. I was in an abusive relationship and as time went on I used opiates to cope with that and my addiction became serious. I was addicted for 10 years but psychedelics had nothing to do with it even though I used them during many periods of this time. Psychedelics (ibogaine) eventually helped me to get off and take my life back. There are about a metric shit ton of people addicted to alcohol or opiates or what have you who have never used or don't currently use psychedelics. There are also some who do use psychedelics. There are lots of people who use just about any drug they can get their hands on. You can't blame psychedelics for drug addiction. It's the same for mental illness. There are loads of people who have never used a psychedelic who have all kinds of mental issues, and there are also people who use psychedelics who have mental issues. There are also plenty of people in both categories who do not have mental issues. Unfortunately mental illness is very prevalent these days, in the whole spectrum of types of people, drug users or not.

Psychedelics have been net positive for me without question, although I have had negative things come from them in the short term. It's been a long road but I'm thankful for them. Psychedelics aren't for everyone, and like any tool, they can be used for good or ill. I know psychedelic users who are well-adjusted and highly functional and happy, and psychedelic users who are the opposite, and varying degrees of in-between. The same as I know non psychedelic users who fit into all the same categories.
 
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Well put Xorkoth.

Psychedelics if anything can't be categorized in a black and white manner in my opinion. Horrible things have been done with their assistance (Manson family, CIA experiments) just as the opposite (think successful psychedelic therapy for cancer patients for example) and everything in between. Is a hammer inherently good or bad, because it can be used to build a house, hit a person or as a paper weight? Tools in general are neutral, it's how you use them. Hell, even nuclear weapons prevent wars through mutually assured destruction so I'm quite positive nothing is all good or all bad inherently.

Personally what I worry about is people who have no idea what they are doing or getting in to which you could probably argue is just about anyone who is trying psychedelics for the first time for example. How paramount it is to protect them from damaging themselves with these extraordinary tools, without outright denying or preventing them using them. For example, what are the factors that determine the outcome when someone tries to heal their psyche through the use of psychedelics when the problem is a hyper defensive ego? It could go either way, make things worse or literally be the only thing that can save them at that point. Psychedelics are an attack on the ego in a sense, but it's easier said than done to formulate a strategy that allows for the ego to surrender instead of coming up even tougher defense mechanisms.
 
The ego is simply your sense of self as an individuated life form. The time for the ego to be obliterated permanently is death. Removing it temporarily can result in great insight, but trying to suppress it entirely, or too often, leads to escapism at best. We're here now to live life as an individual; whether or not that individuality is an illusion is irrelevant because we still wake up every day with this perspective and it is our experience.

Good words Xorkoth
 
Good posts Xorkoth and others

It's been quite a while since Leary or McKenna and they were clearly so enthousiastic as to often enough be overenthousiastic and by now we should see the difference between something like ego-death being seen as 'positive' and 'having positive potential'. The matter is as complex as the state of consciousness is altered.

Like X said the perspective shift - or even paradigm shift - can be powerful in it's own right and the first time can often be the most jarring though this depends on intensity and frame of reference for something like that to happen. Knowing it is possible or expecting it can make a big difference.

But apart from that losing sense of your 'ego' and regaining it doesn't necessarily achieve anything in and of itself since without the proper context it can be as empty as losing and regaining consciousness, in my experience it is what it says about your 'ego' when you regain it and in my opinion possibly most important: the reintegration.

Years ago I thought a lot in terms of 'ego' and how I wanted to fight it, but much of that was some sort of quest as part of an existential crisis and because of things I had been reading and learning related to philosophy. That all passed. I don't think that there is something to keep fighting about the ego because of how your drives are engrained into you as an individual with an identity. I stopped that sort of fight and while habits and drives would return to some capacity, they never take the driver's seat in such a way anymore that I let them out of my sight and this doesn't require any struggle or effort. Enough reprogramming of your mind by having the proper perspective shifts and insights can more or less permanently give you benefit - at least in my case that is so and I can't speak for others.

If you have problems with self-control or other behavioral things, you might benefit from other sorts of therapy or exercises but it is probably pointless to keep trying to kill your ego - that is like extreme overkill for such purposes and I don't see how it's not equivalent to taking heavy neuroleptics to pretty much carpet-bomb your mind out of achieving anything that is both fruitful and stable.

There is I guess a darker side to what 'improper' use of psychedelics and inducing ego-death could lead to, I imagine things like such a reduced self-awareness that you become too sensitive to (self-)delusion or more broadly and vaguely put: not having any real clue what you're doing and continuing on a path for the wrong reasons and 'answers' because you can't really ask proper questions to yourself anymore in coherent ways.

Maybe iksaxophone ought to give some examples of what he or she supposes the ego does when it is [hypothetically] beaten into submission, successfully (?) or [hypothetically] fought to only make it stronger in its defense?
Psychologists are starting to think that there isn't really anything like a constant self like we think about it but rather something that is a sum or side-effect of the stories we keep telling ourselves which constantly change throughout life, strung together from a set of likes and dislikes based on experience etc.
Of course the ego is often considered in the context of 'fear of death' which is in a way why it is doubly appropriate for this context. About that I would say that training the threat of death by simulating can teach you (even unfairly) that it's not something to worry about so much or at least that there is no point in worrying... in a way yes I do think it is possible to make that part of yourself more defensive too because frequent threats of 'death' do imply that you need to be vigilant to prevent it... the ego as a defense against dying is explained extremely easily from an evolutionary standpoint: anything defending and protecting you from dying in any way would give you an evolutionary advantage.

When I said 'unfairly' I didn't mean that there is on the contrary something to worry about and fear, but that a simulated death by ego-death is of course not actual death or a threat of actually dying, as much (or not) as the experiences [leading up at least] may turn out to be similar.

Anyway it would help to get your idea of this 'ego' and what about it is beaten into submission, TS (iks), because we should establish that before we talk about it with possibly different ideas about induced ego deaths, their purpose or danger, or the definitions involved.

In any case I would warn against getting hung up on it too much, and the more you practise it the more I would ask you what the hell you are doing and why... because while I find the experiences I had fascinating and important (not all I guess), I definitely feel like people - including my past self - who seek out ego-death as some holy grail for some reason or go to war against their ego should ask themselves whether they really understand the point about it or just think they do because of how overwhelmingly impressive the experience can be and powerful a paradigm shift can be.
Because that really doesn't prove that you can rely on something like that to be repeated to do anything but confuse yourself.
 
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One damaging thing I see in a lot of psychedelic users, which I went through too and which I put down to youth and not having had enough time to really integrate the psychedelic experience yet, is this idea that the ego is a bad thing and should be escaped. This is not true, it's in fact nonsense. The ego is simply your sense of self as an individuated life form.

I came on here to post exactly the same thing :) The ego is a normal function of human psychology, but in English we also use the term for someone with an exaggerated sense of self-importance, resulting in the seriously warped doctrine in Buddhist / New Age / psychedelic communities that you must learn to transcend your ego or else you're a horrible person.

The time for the ego to be obliterated permanently is death. Removing it temporarily can result in great insight, but trying to suppress it entirely, or too often, leads to escapism at best.

In my experience, many of those who pontificate about the need to experience ego-death to see through the illusion of the self to gain enlightenment, or whatever, is most likely a psychopath or a narcissist looking for easy victims for their manipulation mind-games. I've witnessed these kinds of people infiltrate Buddhist and New Age groups and destroy them from within, by spreading confusion and accusing anyone who challenges them of having "too much ego" to fully understand their teachings. And these kinds of groups are easy prey for them, because they're full of earnest but naive meditators who spend a lot of time suppressing their own sense of self in the hopes that this will help them grow spiritually, and make themselves quite gullible and psychically vulnerable as a result.
 
Xorkoth- I appreciate your response, especially the 'ego trip on enlightenment' idea. I hadn't realized it but I think this is near to the root of my concern.

FnX- of course, psychs are tools. I agree with Haltia though in the need for a cultural institution to guide their use.

Solipsis- Oversensitivity and lack of resilience are traits that I've often seen in heavy psychonauts, but I'm not sure how much delusion has to do with it. The heavy psychonauts I've met don't seem totally insane, they seem fragile. And sometimes incoherent, to be fair.

And yes, I'll clarify some things, namely that 'ego' as I see it is the part of ourselves formed from our habitual and conscious thoughts, intentions, and actions which are in the service of our individual well being.
As for ego-death, that's not what I am personally looking for. Eapecially not to suppress my ego. I seek a strong, healthy ego, where I can balance my own needs with others', and not overreact to percieved threats.

zn13bt- Ahhh yes the 'ultra-spiritual' who project their own weaknesses and fears onto others...I am familiar...
 
There certainly might exist people overestimating their "enlightenment" and/or projecting or preying on others in some ways, but in something like Zen doctrine it can also have no intention to harm at all: the idea or belief then, as exemplified by koans, may be to attempt to do the impossible in order to nullify one's individual perspective, in order to gain another [broader] perspective. And in ways these ideas do match my psychedelic experiences, the most powerful ones especially, which involved losing desire at a deep level to gain an incredibly powerful state of consciousness.

It is very "cleverly" ironic that one must surrender the desire for ... [mental] power etc? enlightenment? to progress towards something like it.

I readily admit I do not know about where this path may lead in people who make it their life's purpose to seek abiding enlightenment rather than this unabiding form many of us probably know. I would find it incredible if they can learn to integrate it and function nonetheless, because I know that losing your "feeling" can make it incredibly hard to navigate life and make basically any kind of decision. If you don't feel any way about something all decisions become arbitrary.
It is probably best not to think in too black and white terms about those kinds of states of consciousness.

Like I already suggested perhaps, I fully agree that the idea that the ego must be fought is based on misunderstandings and it this second definition of the ego in the egotistical sense should be kept as far from this matter as possible in order to avoid confusion and mistakes.
Clearly though, to temporarily achieve a state of consciousness with no active individualist perspective you have to surrender it but this has nothing to do with egotistical behavior.

In my experience, moderated and reasonable use of psychedelics (i.e. medium to full dosages if you like, for other reasons, but no overkill to intentionally trigger ego-death experiences) can agree with a healthy and balanced ego. My experience is extensive though and I do feel like in some ways I or my ego has grown more resilient having had a lot of training with psychedelics, I don't have to jump through ALL the hoops every time.

Yeah about being fragile: I do get what you mean. In some ways I think both weaknesses and strengths can become amplified. Balancing one's own needs with those of others can follow from having had shifted perspective as "the ultimate empathy" and the 'do unto others...' adage naturally follows from that as well. I think the ego can partially become chronically softened, though knowing yourself better it can also stand up for itself in other ways.
Some parts of chronic tripping can be painful and damaging and lay bare parts of yourself continuously. So yes this can give people soft spots, but in that same person can also be new found strength. IMO psychedelics manifest your potentials by catalyzing processes. Over time when this happens in both positive and negative ways, you should expect unforeseen changes and both weakened and strenghtened aspects of oneself.

Finally: I must say I am fascinated by the question whether a unity experience is still dependent on a working brain or if it may be at the foundation of reality / existence, whether feeling like pure non-dual being might be the rock-bottom state shared by everything. I can't devise an experiment to test this question but ego-death experiences do imply this question IMO.
The big problem may be that what I call a 'unity experience' probably still depends too much on the part of the experience leading up to it and away from it. The state itself may be like nothing at all and void of all meaning and therefore not comparable at all to what I call that unity experience.
 
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It is very "cleverly" ironic that one must surrender the desire for ... [mental] power etc? enlightenment? to progress towards something like it.

Like I already suggested perhaps, I fully agree that the idea that the ego must be fought is based on misunderstandings and it this second definition of the ego in the egotistical sense should be kept as far from this matter as possible in order to avoid confusion and mistakes.
Clearly though, to temporarily achieve a state of consciousness with no active individualist perspective you have to surrender it but this has nothing to do with egotistical behavior.

IMO psychedelics manifest your potentials by catalyzing processes. Over time when this happens in both positive and negative ways, you should expect unforeseen changes and both weakened and strenghtened aspects of oneself.

Surrendering ones desire, good choice of words I think. Quitting wanting and acting through the stopping of action, quite hard to describe with words as it indeed starts to feel sort of paradoxical. Channeling something greater than 'you', through you, without (sub)conscious efforts to manipulate it. Spiritual guidance flowing through a person, attuning to it and attracting it. Still, I'm not sure if it makes sense at all unless someone has already experienced it.

These subjects often start having issues with semantics, but personally I find the expression 'fight the ego' useful in some cases. The ones where ego is fighting back. Defiance against negative patterns of behavior that are controlling someone, causing them pain in various forms. Sort of reminds me of Gandhi in some ways. What other word to use when you're trying to help someone see how their mind is projecting feelings everywhere? To get past mental defenses and get someone to surrender, purely for their own good? Regardless of what word is used, the ego in question is prone to perceiving these kind of helpful attempts at molding it as an attack so it takes a defensive stance.

When we introduce psychedelics then, it is indeed a catalyst. There is no guarantee that the results are positive, it is entirely dependent of the 'strategy' used. Set & setting, dose etc. When trying to help someone else, I feel like it's more about helping them to deconstruct the constructs of their own ego, to see these unconscious patterns that are harming them and preventing positive growth. Providing the right questions, not answers, those should be left for everyone to figure on their own I think. Otherwise we easily start treading in the realm of egotistical manipulation. For example, we could ask the question 'what is preventing you from being happy?' or 'what exactly prevents you from looking inside yourself?' and for any given answer we give another question until the conclusion is reached that the reasons preventing happiness or introspection are entirely internal, not external as the individual believes due to past traumas they have experienced. Ultimately there shouldn't be a reason for questions at all, at which point the ego sort of surrenders. It can be an extremely hard task when the subconscious defense mechanisms are deeply rooted in the mind you are trying to 'free' and I have great concern that psychedelics might make matters worse for some just as they could be the key to getting out of this prison of the mind.

Forgive my perhaps confusing style of writing, but I am actually asking a question: does anyone believe my approach to be flawed? During a normal state of consciousness, questions can easily lead to walking in circles, but when someone is in a psychedelic state of mind, I have faith that asking the right questions could lead to the ego questioning itself, possibly surrendering harmful aspects it has learned over time due to a lifetime of traumas it normally outright refuses to process. What is it exactly that precedes realization, awareness and understanding? The answer depends on the individual perhaps, but I believe that there is also an universal aspect to it. Usually providing questions has worked for me and others, but in this case I have hit a wall. Perhaps I need to alter my own state of consciousness as well due to the sheer difficulty of the task... It is a matter over two decades worth of repeated traumas after all. If only this person would realize the potential they have in them if they were to solve these issues. On the other hand, the possibility of reinforcing such powerful an traumatized ego is why I have tried to approach the person without the help of 'power tools'. The individual asking for help would like to try psychedelics as a form of therapy but they are extremely reckless in general and I believe these wishes stem from desperation.

Paradoxically I am beginning to feel that the use of psychedelics is warranted because of this escalating reckless and suicidal behavior they are exhibiting as I do not want them to extinguish their own light. Any input would be extremely helpful so I could better see the situation outside of my own perspective.
 
The fight with yourself can be as pointless as a staring contest with yourself. :) Letting go is instead a leap of faith (of the trust kind, and spiritual perhaps but not religious) and IME basically the entire ego panic involved with impending ego-death is about whether there is enough faith / confidence to proceed and be utterly vulnerable as well as unsure about whether you will be safe and how long it will take. I don't mean to make it sound easy because despite there being encouraging previous experiences saying it is not dangerous in the back of your mind there will fester any slight doubts you just cannot cover because you have no insurance policy, no lifeline tether even if fifty feet down it's supposed to be cushions and not spikes or blunt force trauma.

For the record: these kinds of experiences aren't all that therapeutic for me for investigating happiness (a tricky word and subject loaded with problems that may not really be 'necessary' to lead a good life, though there should be enough fulfillment in one's life), or other things about my life or myself. It's interesting to learn about the defenses of the mind, the nature of consciousness and that sort of thing... and there are *similar* states of consciousness like rebirth experience (sometimes with many quick cycles) which touch on 'transcending the self' or going beyond your defenses.
Once I had an unexpectedly beautiful piece of music catch me so off-guard on acid (maybe with 2C-B) that it triggered a rebirth experience. The common denominator seems to be that my defenses had been overwhelmed by accident rather than intentional like with meditation.

I'm not sure I can help right now with your approach since I see I am short on time but I think I learned a lot by 'example': trips involving activities, themes and investigation of all associations with it and inevitable philosophical aspects. By comparison, when I tried to keep it abstract, things tend to stay a lot more unclear and complex. I don't think your approach is flawed per se but "asking the right questions" may be more difficult than you think if you expect to just come up with them by willing to focus on it. Issues with how questions are asked usually lead to issues with the answer you get. Leading your life, making mistakes and reflecting on it can lead to insights when you are willing to confront... I know psychedelics can catalyze, but ideally that means you have enough to start with to catalyze rather than just everything proliferating in a jumble.

I don't know who that traumatized person is you are talking about and maybe I am not focusing, but that seems like a delicate thing to delve into and such a person should expect a lot of fallout. Catharsis is healthy but it isn't clean.
 
I haven't experienced ego loss yet. My highest acid dose was 400ug after a 2 week break. Ive always been me.

I feel like its a double edged sword tho. I enjoy my individual experience of this consciousness stuff.

Cool discussion.
 
These deep conflicts, epiphanies, and major break throughs, in ones self arent specific to drug use though.
difficult traumas can be as rewarding as a teacher.

I do wonder, what happens if i never used drugs, could i really have learnt as much as i have, in the same way that i have? Of course, not likely in the same way, but quite possibly as much...

Yes, these experriences are great teachers, but only if thats the instument your path needed. It couldn't be forced on one, who did not need this tool.
Imho.
 
My favorite thing about psychedelics and to an extent really good weed is that they showed me my ego and gave me the option to play along with it and let it guide or step back and look at things from a birds eye view completely distant and non engaged. Complete ego loss to me is just another way of saying to be 100% present in the here and now...this very millisecond. No distractions, no thoughts just pure bliss of existence. Unless if you have money from your family or circumstance you need to play the ego game to make money to survive. The ego is a tool of survival that needs to be "on" unless you turn it off when you are in a safe zone where you are able to. Psychedelics help me fast forward through the years of meditation practices that some endure to the part where I am instantly aware of the game I'm playing and who I'm pretending to be and what role I'm playing. Very important tools that I believe not everyone needs but many do. We should have the right to partake in the safety of our own homes as long as we participate in the coroporate system and wage slavery I should not be presecuted and locked up for my meditative states.
 
The ego you lose(self identification with your body and mind) through psychedelics and the ego that is being referred to (self importance) are two different aspects of the same mechanism. Just because you lose your ego (identification with body and mind) does not mean that one will always return to one's body with less "self importance" tendencies.

Psychedelics are keys that unlock access to areas to ones brain and mind, they are not magic nor is the end result predictable.
 
These deep conflicts, epiphanies, and major break throughs, in ones self arent specific to drug use though.
difficult traumas can be as rewarding as a teacher.

I do wonder, what happens if i never used drugs, could i really have learnt as much as i have, in the same way that i have? Of course, not likely in the same way, but quite possibly as much...

Yes, these experriences are great teachers, but only if thats the instument your path needed. It couldn't be forced on one, who did not need this tool.
Imho.

Yeah.. taking a shortcut with your car doesn't make you a faster driver..

It can get you places though... can be nice for an occasion <3
 
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