Severe HPPD symptoms

[negrogesic]

While i'm relatively "green", and spent as little time in the psych-ward as required as a student and resident, I have yet to come across a single patient who claimed to be suffering from HPPD, and have never seen a case diagnosed.

 

[sekio]

Personally I see HPPD as a convenient way to blame psychological insecurities on limits of human perception that "should not be there". I highly doubt it is a form of physical damage, or even tied to any specific neurotransmitter, at all.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Why in the world would you 'highly doubt' this?
What does that do for you?

It makes complete sense to anyone that has EVER had HPPD that it is supposed to be distressing. It is not about 'insecurities', for God's sake.

Don't you understand that MDMA, LSD, and many other psychedelics take advantage of the endocrine system? Cortisol is released in massive amounts, especially with MDMA.

Is it that hard to believe that cortisol is capable of producing something other than euphoria?

The recovery process not only involves cortisol, but it can also include down and up regulation of receptors in the visual cortex. This will wreak havoc on the blood supply to this area.

There is nothing 'convenient' about HPPD. How absurd...

By the way, negrogesic, I can see how someone suffering from HPPD would have a hard time describing it. It is elusive to words.

If one was suffering from severe enough problems to be in a psych-ward, it might make their communication skills even more problematic.

HPPD is primarily a visual change, but it is interlaced with other problems such as anxiety/head-pressure. It can be difficult to separate.

If you do separate it mentally, you find that it is a mild hallucination.
Everything you see feels like it is a little further away.
No....more apt would be saying 'it feels like your eyes are set back in your head by a few inches'.

Not only do you perceive a subtle change in depth, but everything looks a little grayer or blurrier.
It is almost as if you are watching the whole world on a movie screen.
Or maybe the whole world is just on the other side of a piece of glass.

Maybe this is how the world will look when I'm 90 years old...

I hope this helps.

 

[sekio]

Cortisol is a stress horomone (the prototypical one) so I think it's not unreasonable to finger it as a cause (contributing factor?) of HPPD. I'm not saying people who are suffering from HPPD are "bullshit", to put it that bluntly. All I'm saying is that, at least in my mind, most "HPPD cases" are really forms of chemical post-traumatic stress disorder - and it seems logical given the frequency which HPPD appears after a bad trip and is accompanied by derealization, depersonalization, anxiety and general malaise and psychiatric dullness. There is nothing special about psychedelic drugs that should cause major and irreversable damage (cell death, massive loss of receptor density or function) when the person in question practices safe drug use (i.e. not 4 gram bolus doses of MDMA) and may well be predisposed to stress reactions anyway. A study that shows usage of clonazepam is effective in HPPD is another commonality with PTSD.

Maybe I have just seen too many threads full of people convinced they have uncovered dysfunction, damage or other disruption their (dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, pick one?) systems/tranporters/receptors. Of course there is nothing supplied but unreliable, speculative, undiagnosed, often medically vague, symptoms ("mild case of serotonin syndrome") that the sufferer chooses to focus on and exclude most other possibilities for treatment, and sometimes side effects or lack of accepted medical usage is not given any heed whatsoever.

tl;dr I think HPPD is being treated wrongly. I don't think it's a "ficticious" condition.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

I will say that my HPPD existed in tandem with high levels of stress.
When the cortisol was at its highest, so was the HPPD.
By the end of the first six weeks, it was markedly reduced.
But it was constant, from the beginning of the day until the end.

After 3 months it was easily tolerated.
After 4, it was virtually gone, regardless of the day.
Now at 7 months, it is 99% gone, 99% of the time.

But the stress/anxiety is not.

My vision corrected itself prior to the rest of my 5-HT system.
I point the finger at this neurotransmitter system without hesitation.
Research has proven that the visual cortex, which is a highly complex region of the brain, has a rich supply of serotonin receptors.

When total brain serotonin is reduced by 90%, there is a compensatory up-regulation of receptors in the occipital lobe. This has been observed in many animal studies.

It would seem an easy explanation for this phenomena in humans.
Chemical PTSD is an interesting analogy, but much more vague.
I'm glad to hear you don't think we are making it up.

But disagreeing with our placement of blame on the drug, is insane.
When a person takes a psychedelic drug, which is also a hallucinogen, and continues to experience visual hallucinations afterwards....the drug is clearly to blame. There is no 'convincing' needed - it is a simple truth.

Even if the person is 'susceptible' and this is 'rare', the drug is still the 'direct' cause.

And yes, psychidelic drugs are very special.
First time users of LSD have experienced permanent color-blindness or even massive psychological break-downs. This is 'special'.
First time users of MDMA have died, even from careful dosing. This is pretty special, too.

Stimulants can cause heart-attacks pretty easily in some people, but psychedelics can cause permanent alterations in neurotransmitter systems or even 'cell death'.

Hundreds of research papers on MDMA point to this conclusion.
That doesn't mean that the brain is incapable of adapting to these changes, of course.

Just don't deny the simple truth - psychedelics are special and can make drastic alterations to the brain.

 

[DJHENRU]

I thought blindness from LSD was an dismissed?(is color blindness something else then)
MDMA just I think would rarely kill from causing a heart attack from sympathomimetic activity, its just notably the only stimulant that has an antianxiety component.

I just read the shulgin's dictionary yesterday, and I believe that psychedelics aren’t always hallucinogenic.

I’ve heard of my brother in alcohol withdrawal saying that he was dying, and in need of an angel while going through the gates of heaven, to him he didn’t remember anything akin to that and was transformed into the devil.
This is a hallucinogenic experience because he couldn’t distinguish from the two, from reality, and didn’t remember.


I do like all the information you posted and very solid harm reductive advice.

 

[negrogesic]

Why in the world would you 'highly doubt' this?
What does that do for you?

It makes complete sense to anyone that has EVER had HPPD that it is supposed to be distressing. It is not about 'insecurities', for God's sake.

Don't you understand that MDMA, LSD, and many other psychedelics take advantage of the endocrine system? Cortisol is released in massive amounts, especially with MDMA.

Is it that hard to believe that cortisol is capable of producing something other than euphoria?

The recovery process not only involves cortisol, but it can also include down and up regulation of receptors in the visual cortex. This will wreak havoc on the blood supply to this area.

There is nothing 'convenient' about HPPD. How absurd...

By the way, negrogesic, I can see how someone suffering from HPPD would have a hard time describing it. It is elusive to words.

If one was suffering from severe enough problems to be in a psych-ward, it might make their communication skills even more problematic.

HPPD is primarily a visual change, but it is interlaced with other problems such as anxiety/head-pressure. It can be difficult to separate.

If you do separate it mentally, you find that it is a mild hallucination.
Everything you see feels like it is a little further away.
No....more apt would be saying 'it feels like your eyes are set back in your head by a few inches'.

Not only do you perceive a subtle change in depth, but everything looks a little grayer or blurrier.
It is almost as if you are watching the whole world on a movie screen.
Or maybe the whole world is just on the other side of a piece of glass.

Maybe this is how the world will look when I'm 90 years old...

I hope this helps.

I am not saying it is NOT a verifiable condition. I just think the "internet" can feed into the somatization of the disorder, and make the symptoms more subject to "magnification" and hypochondriasis.

 

[LouArcher]

Hey First Bad. I tried to message you but I am not a bluelighter.

I have decided to copy my message to you into the thread in hopes that someone in my position might find hope in a response. I've found several posters elsewhere on the web with the same symptoms and circumstance to a T and will try to contact them. Also, this is the first forum I have ever joined, so I apologize if I am breaking any rules. If I am doing something wrong please notify me and I will do what I can to right the issue.

Here we go...

I am a first-time user of mushrooms who has been trying to cope with what I have come to conclude must be some kind of HPPD. In a desperate attempt to find out what has been happening to my head over the past three months I have decided to reach out. A little personal guidance would raise my morale and give me hope.

I am a young, healthy twenty-two year old. I tried what my best friend (a smart, cautious guy by nature) assured me was an 'entry-level' amount of mushrooms. The trip was interesting and quite a beautiful experience despite short bouts of paranoia regarding my recovery. I went to sleep once I was able and woke up the morning after feeling very interesting. Frankly, I still can't describe it... but my senses weren't acting as I know them (and still are not).

That was three months ago. Since then I have felt 'interesting', but last week my vision altered -- a new symptom, I suppose. It is at the point where it feels as though I have a migraine; a lot of pressure behind the eyes; I am tired and snappy. My vision itself feels as though it is 'sharper', or 'high fidelity', yet unfocused at the same time, as though the visions of each eye don't quite match up. I would also include 'tunnel vision'... where I can only focus on a small area of vision at a time. My vision feels as though it is a residual of the trip; meaning it is a very similar visual feeling.

Every night my eyes feel incredibly tired and strained. I see flashes of light (that I amusingly try to recreate without any success) and bright spots. Looking at bright things hurts my eyes, and often results in a sharp pain in my forehead. I cannot look at a computer screen for more than a an hour's worth a day without getting blurry vision and a bad, bad headache.

I feel as though I am much more aware of my being, but not. I don't necessarily want to be me again, I just want to be comfortable and understand what is happening. This being said, all I hope for as a response are a few suggestions regarding my lifestyle or diet... things that may help, or things that I should avoid, words of wisdom.

I am very stressed. I am very alone and very scared.

I thank you for all your responses in advance and hope that I may offer you something in return one day,

Lou

Please reply to [email protected]

 

[LouArcher]

and I'd really like to thank you, Purdey. If it weren't for you I wouldn't have found this website. It sounds as though we are each wearing a shoe of the same pair.

Also, as a sidenote: First Bad, I've read all your posts (from what I can see) in this thread, so don't feel obliged to reiterate what you've already written. I am just wondering if you could elaborate on noted supplements, etc. How you felt, how you exercised, what you thought helped the most?

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Hello, Lou.

I'm sorry to hear you are suffering.
But you are not alone.

Allow me to reassure you - the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor!

HPPD from a single use of mushrooms is pretty rare.
Can I assume you have never done any other drugs?

Mushrooms act upon the serotonin system.
If you have done ANY other serotonergic drugs, they are immediately implicated.

MDMA or LSD would be more likely to cause this.
It is possible that previous use of other serotonergic drugs set you up for this problem.
It is also possible that you simply have a more touchy serotonin network.

Are you a weed smoker?
If so, its time to put it down.
Marijuana increases the risk of developing mental disorders about 500% in susceptible individuals.
Regardless of this, it is a BAD idea to smoke while suffering from HPPD.
Weed increases serotonin in the brain, something you don't need right now.

The visual cortex is one of the most serotonin-rich areas in the brain.
This also means that it uses a proportionately large volume of blood supply, as the two go hand-in-hand.

Since you didn't experience this dramatic change in vision immediately, you can relax - you likely don't have extensive serotonin degredation.

This is what is typically experienced by MDMA and LSD users that develop HPPD.
If there is a delay at all, it is only a few days, not months.
That means your delay may be a good sign.

The anxiety you are experiencing is a sign that you are 're-wiring' parts of your brain. Since this also explains HPPD, it is reenforced as a cause.

You may have done damage to your serotonin network.
New axons and receptors are fighting to emerge from the cell body of the serotonin nerves. As they do this, a tug-of-war is being played with the capillaries in your brain!

Also, the flow of serotonin is disruptive to normal cellular function, so the brain tissue must acclimate to this change.
The good news is that it does.

The majority of people that suffer HPPD do recover from all visual problems.
LSD users have been documented to suffer from color-blindness or visual distortions permanently. But this is rare.
Even in this group, most people eventually describe the changes as benign.
They actually learn to live with it, without anxiety.

MDMA users typically recover within 6 months, although anxiety can carry on for longer. The important thing here is that recovery is the trend.

My HPPD was really bad for the first 2 months.
It was as if my eyes were set back in my skull 6 inches.
It felt like everything I was seeing was behind a sheet of glass or playing on a movie screen. I can definitely relate to the statement about the eyes not combining their inputs into a seamless image.

Very disconcerting...but by month 4 it was quite tolerable.
By 5, it was done.

You already seem to know the best treatement.
Exercise trumps all other advice.
When you work out, you increase BDNF, a protein that stimulates the release of stem cells into the brain. It also causes new serotonin axons to sprout!

I suggest both lifting weights AND cardio, at least ten minutes of each.
Every day. You will find that each day brings increased benefits.
By the end of the first week, I promise you will feel better.

Sleeping helps reset your serotonin.
Poor sleep has been proven to worsen the symptoms of people recovering from MDMA, so this would likely apply to you as well.

Avoid carbs in your diet. They increase serotonin in the brain.
Eat a high protein diet. This will provide ample tryptophan, which is converted into serotonin. Lots of fruits and veggies, too.

Your serotonin network exists primarily for the purpose of digestion.
It is the 'brain-gut' connection.
Drugs like mushrooms only have the effect they do because of this highly complex network of nerves that connects your intestines to your brain.

So treat your gut as kindly as possible.
No refined sugars or starches.
You need to eat SOME carbs, but you should focus much more on proteins of all kinds. Bananas and eggs are easy to digest and provide great serotonin sources.

Supplements that help -
Fish oil, which improves mylenation around nerve cells.
Tumeric extract is a powerful anti-inflammatory in the gut and is believed to increase BDNF in the brain. Take it with black pepper and you will make it much more bio-available.
B-vitamins support the production of neurotransmitters. Take liquid drops and hold under the tongue for a minute. It tastes good and it won't be destroyed in the stomach.
Lecithin is great. It contains choline, a salt that is turned into acetycholine. It also contains inositol which is used in cellular function and B-vitamins. It also makes you feel great.

Do not take 5-HTP. You do not need to shove more serotonin into the network.
Plenty of people in recovery have recommended it, but some experience major anxiety from it. If you wish to try it, start with less than ONE pill.

There are other supplements you can look into, but this is a solid list.
Remember, nothing compares to the benefits of exercise.
Brain-injuries of all kinds call for it...

It just so happens that injury to the serotonin system is a type of brain injury that the brain is talented at recovering from.

Don't think of recovery in terms of days. This is how you experience life, but the brain takes months, at the minimum. Three months is hardly anything.
In another three, you will probably be FINE.
So consider yourself lucky.

And consider this a sign that you don't handle serotonergic drugs well.
No more psychidelics for you, my friend.

This is all I got, for now.
Post anymore questions you may have in here, and I will try to help.

You are going to be OK.
I promise.

 

[LouArcher]

Thank you for such a quick reply First Bad. It means a lot to me. The past couple years have been an incredibly tough and stressful time for me. That being said, the problems with my eyes began shortly after my girlfriend ended our relationship -- granted, I still feel as though that is not the soul cause of my vision issues or anxiety.

To answer a few of your questions... I am not a weed smoker. I've tried smoking many times, and every time my body completely blanked out. the effects of the drug were horrible, to the point where it felt as though I was going through shock/asphyxiation. Due to this I have rarely touched the drug. The last time I can remember smoking it first-hand is over a year ago now. That being said, the few times I smoked it (in very, very small quantities) a year ago I was doing so to fall asleep and it worked well, without any anxiety.

MDMA on the other hand I have tried several times, although I cannot remember doing it for at least 9 months now. I have never gotten a bad reaction from it, and, come to think about it, I've never shown any physical/mental repercussion from using MDMA. I have always woken up in a fantastic mood and have never suffered from any kind of 'down'. Despite my friends using the same M, they reported depression for days and mood swings -- I, for one, have never suffered from these consequences due to M.

I hear you about the eye pressure. My eyes feel so incredibly pushed that I feel as though I have to massage them, or shut them every few minutes just to collect myself. They are always, always tired. I can also relate (once in a while) to the 'sheet of glass' analogy you have noted. It feels as though I have completely zoned out and am looking through binoculars. Looking down or up (especially at buildings) is trippier than it should be sober. Sidenote: if I focus and really hone-in on my vision, I can actually 'feel' short spurts of it being normal. I can't get them to last, but I can make it happen. This has not only convinced me that my vision has in fact changed, but has also given me hope that I am not too far-off.

I will look into all your dietary recommendations. Out of curiosity... how would drinking beer or liquor affect this process? I have no problem dropping either if tossing 'ems the case.

I have time to recover. I will be patient.

Frankly, once has been enough... Although I wish I had been outside for the experience. No matter -- this is the way things ought to be. I will go for a run tomorrow depending on how my head's feeling and see what I can do about weights. I bought Aleve today hoping it would help my headache but it didn't do anything -- go figure, the pharmacist told me it was the best thing they had over the counter, T1 aside. I chose the Aleve over the T1 to avoid codeine side-effects.

First Bad, I can't thank you enough. I'm going to hold you to that promise! I'll let you know how things go.

Lou

 

[First Bad Comedown]

The eye pressure can be wicked.
I only had it BAD once.

I forgot to mention that around month 6, when my vision was settled down, I had a very strange occurrence.

After a particular intense day of 'forced discussion' and emotional therapy, I felt a change. I was quite exhausted that night.

The next day I felt different - almost CLEAR.
But then the head-pressure took a violent turn.

For hours I felt like something was pushing and moving around behind my eyes!
This got so strong that I felt like my eye was going to POP and fill with blood!
Intense and unpleasant....this went on for 3 days in a row, then died down.

Certain regions of the 5-HT network have been known to up-regulate in response to loss of serotonin, as a compensatory measure. Perhaps when the flow of serotonin is restored to these regions through re-innervation, there is TOO MUCH serotonin.

Since serotonin stimulates the flow of blood, and even redistributes capillaries, this is likely the cause of this pressure.

Some former-users of MDMA have died of stroke MONTHS after abstinence. They have even found tissue necrosis in certain serotonin rich regions of the brain, such as the globus pallidus.

This is believed to be caused by long-lasting structural alterations in the 5-HT network.

You are unlikely to experience global 'head-pressure' or 'brain-zaps' like MDMA users. I am glad to hear you never had a problem with MDMA, but it still may have played a role in setting you up for the mushroom problem.

If forcing your eyes to focus helps, make it a habit.
I strongly suggest doing this daily. By forcing your visual cortex to perform a variety of functions is likely targeting a larger surface area of that region to the re-innervation process.
I have found that focusing on objects close to my face, especially the mirror if within 6 inches, made my whole damn head BUZZZZZ. It also brought some brief mental clarity!

The strange reaction you got from marijuana is the most suspect, however.
Having an abnormal reaction to cannabis signals a genetic disposition on your part.
You may have proclivity towards mental illness, so psychedelic drugs are much riskier for you. Your statement about the weed may me go "Uh-huh".

Alcohol should be fine. Even in my weakened state, I handled it without ANY anxiety.
Mind you, I was drinking moderately. You don't want to experience a hang-over along with anxiety! Eating a high protein diet seemed to enhance the benefits of alcohol.

Also, I found opiates to be great. They deadened the headaches and made me feel wonderful. But I never used more than two days in a row, because the day after was indeed harder than normal.

Benzos are ok for ONE-TIME use.
Regular use will make it SO much worse - you can't imagine.
I have held onto a single Klonopin during this entire experience, and despite the relief it would bring me, I have left it the fuck alone!

Stick with beer and tramadol, my friend.
Just not on the same night...:D

 

[DJHENRU]

I just gotta say that I've had a brain injury AND IT IS WAAAY WORSE than any drug effect.
infact one of the worst psychosomatic events in my life. Way worse then ayahausca or eating pills all weekend weekends in a row, eating large amounts of 2ci or large doses of mushies. It infact affects drug effects now.
: [ fuck that shit
although It isnt at all like hppd fnord. check out oliver sacks writings for examples.

 

[LouArcher]

All depends on who you are and how you're wired too.

News!

I just found out that I have been taking an SRI nearly all year. I began taking an anti-depressant in September through to March, then tapered off. After stopping my SRI treatment I felt fine. Shortly after tapering off I did mushrooms for the first time and I've felt rather interesting/different ever since. It's only when I tried to re-start my SRI treatment by tapering up (1 dose of half a pill a day) that my problems with vision, as far as I can tell, began. I only took that 1 dose of half a pill. After waking up and feeling funny taking that day's dose was the last thing on my mind.

I spent the day in the hospital today. I'm in Canada and suffer from waiting 10 hours to be treated by a green resident. I told her EVERYTHING I neglected to tell the doctor my previous visit. When the word 'mushrooms' entered the conversation a noticeable, very uninterested, 'I told you so/you should have known' look crossed her face. She told me she wasn't really required to know anything about unregulated recreational drugs and essentially patted me on the back and handed me three tylenols to 'beat off the migraine'.

From there I went to the optometrist. She was fantastic, but some weird things happened. I told her my visual symptoms and described them as best I could and she was very interested. What boggles my mind is that I scored perfect -- 20/20 -- on this test. I've been wearing glasses for nearly three years now due to somewhat poor eyesight in one eye... My eyes have improved?

I told her about what I've learnt on this site and she took the chance to search HPPD online while I sat back and waited for my retinal scan drops to dilate my pupils. I shared everything I could with her and told her everything I've read, etc. and she deemed that my eyes were fine and that my vision problems were stemming from another source.

And in response to your last post First Bad, I've got to agree. The mention of MDMA users dying months later makes me a little queasy, but I haven't done that many drugs at all -- I do seem hypersensitive to them though.

Marijuana is the worst. My head splits in two.

I love having a beer. Having one beer in the evening and just sitting and resting is just about the most peaceful I can get since the beginning of this issue. I think I will make this a common occurrence unless it begins to worsen my recovery.

I got a gym membership and will be rock climbing in the gym three times a week, and also playing squash twice a week. There is protein powder in our home -- I don't really like the stuff, but if having a high-protein diet is beneficial then I may have a little. I'd rather eat peanut butter and eat steak when I can afford it frankly.

Why Tramadol and not Tylenol 1? I thought I was trying to decrease my serotonin levels? Tramadol, from what I understand, increases serotonin.

No Benzo or Klonopin for me.

Speaking of SRIs... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSRI_discontinuation_syndrome#Indicators

This makes so much sense now.

Omega-3 Fish oils are on my shopping list for this evening.

Lou

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Tramadol is a very modest serotonin antagonist. Only in higher or repeated doses would you encounter any noticeable serotonin effects.

It is a very pleasant and mild opioid. Much gentler and longer-lasting than other opiates, like hydrocodone.

Hydrocodone contains tylenol.
In any form, regular tylenol use is hard on the liver.
Another reason to opt for the tramadol....no acetaminophen.

From your description, you sound like you are suffering from anxiety and this is coming across in your medical visits. A lot of doctors simply tune out at that point. Even neurologists are often unqualified to help people suffering from HPPD or other side-effects of hallucinogenic drugs.

SSRIs on their own cause down-regulation.
It may be the greatest factor of all.

Its a very good thing you discontinued it.
Fish oil and exercise sounds like a great plan.
Eat lots of bananas, eggs, and milk. Avoid overdoing the protein mix - it can gum up the works. Anything that makes digestion more difficult may worsen your symptoms. The powder is ok, but you need a variety of proteins. Mixed with fruits and veggies to push it all through!

Got it?

 

[LouArcher]

Tramadol is a very modest serotonin antagonist. Only in higher or repeated doses would you encounter any noticeable serotonin effects.

It is a very pleasant and mild opioid. Much gentler and longer-lasting than other opiates, like hydrocodone.

Hydrocodone contains tylenol.
In any form, regular tylenol use is hard on the liver.
Another reason to opt for the tramadol....no acetaminophen.

From your description, you sound like you are suffering from anxiety and this is coming across in your medical visits. A lot of doctors simply tune out at that point. Even neurologists are often unqualified to help people suffering from HPPD or other side-effects of hallucinogenic drugs.

SSRIs on their own cause down-regulation.
It may be the greatest factor of all.

Its a very good thing you discontinued it.
Fish oil and exercise sounds like a great plan.
Eat lots of bananas, eggs, and milk. Avoid overdoing the protein mix - it can gum up the works. Anything that makes digestion more difficult may worsen your symptoms. The powder is ok, but you need a variety of proteins. Mixed with fruits and veggies to push it all through!

Got it?

Got it! Ty Ty

 

[ColtDan]

would Piracetam help at all?

 

[Alcyone]

Hydrocodone contains tylenol.

No sir, that's not correct.

Hydrocodone is the name of the active ingredient. I believe all US brands of hydrocodone still contain acetaminophen (called paracetamol here in Europe). E.g. Vicodin, Norco and Lortab. Hydrocodone tablets without acetaminophen are available outside of the US. They can also be prepared by compounding pharmacies in the US, but are not frequently prescribed. Anyway, this is an international forum.

Tylenol is a brand name for a series of products containing acetaminophen. Tylenol is not synonymous with acetaminophen, and most versions of Tylenol contain additional active ingredients.

 

[vecktor]

god this thread contains so much bullshit pseudoscientific crap, I don't know where to start...

when I get bored tomorrow I will tear the posts apart. I can't believe I didn't notice this steaming turd of a thread in the middle of ADD.

for today I think I'll deal with this gem

Some former-users of MDMA have died of stroke MONTHS after abstinence. They have even found tissue necrosis in certain serotonin rich regions of the brain, such as the globus pallidus.
This is believed to be caused by long-lasting structural alterations in the 5-HT network.

MDMA users don't just die months later, this is total shit. MDMA can cause death of serotinergic neurons, this is invisible on autopsy so far only a very few histological examinations have shown anything odd about MDMA users and that is on a microscopic scale. I am intrigued though tell me the mechanism by which serotinergic neuronal pruning causes stroke? It doesn't. please provide one piece of peer reviewed literature.

First Bad Comedown please stop posting pseudoscientific woo and provide useful advice.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Excuse me?

Nice to meet you too, Vecktor...

I spend most of my time in ED where the majority of MDMA users are found, but I have been told that my condescending attitude would be better suited for this forum. Perhaps they were right...

Stimulants and amphetamines have been linked to stroke, cerebrovascular accidents, and brain infarction.
This includes MDMA.
MDMA in particular may cause a long-term increase in risk.

Death following abstinence is extremely rare.
I recall a few case-reports of death by stroke/infarction during the first year of abstinence from MDMA.
The patients were young and otherwise healthy.
I am searching for these case-reports as we speak.
Perhaps I shouldn't use the word 'some' when referring to a very small group.
But 'Total shit' isn't called for.

It is agreed upon that MDMA 're-wires' the brain among the majority of scientists.
Decreases and subsequent increases in blood flow have been found in many brain regions. Eventually, these disruptions even out, but the process can take many months. This is backed up by anecdotal reports of 'brain-zaps' and 'head-pressure' among former MDMA users. These are easy to find.

As a member of this group, allow me to re-label the experience.
I could more accurately describe the process as 'raping my brain'!

Sure, the majority of the time the 'head-pressure' is not nearly this bad.
But when it reaches a sudden crescendo, it is very disabling.
The first 3 nights were the worst, by far. I'm surprised it didn't kill me.

I don't think you would argue if I pointed out that MDMA can cause stroke/edema during or shortly after use.

But quite surprisingly, at month 6, I had a MASSIVE increase in cerebral pain.
For many hours, I felt like my eyes were going to pop right out of my head.
I also felt radial pain, from my right armpit all the way down to the palm of my hand.
It hurt like hell despite the fact that it felt numb at the same time.
I was surprised to have any motor control at all because my whole arm was very weak.
Pain/weakness/numbness in one arm is a possible sign of stroke.

It is well-established that the 5-HT system has a direct impact upon capillaries in the brain. It is also well-established that MDMA causes long-term/permanent alterations to the 5-HT network. I hope we can agree on this much...

If the brain is indeed 're-wiring' itself during recovery, then re-innervation in the 5-HT network can cause sudden changes in blood flow.

The globus pallidus is a SERT rich center that is believed to be among the most sensitive brain regions to MDMA. Tissue changes are discussed - http://radiology.rsna.org/content/220/3/611.full

Yes, I have seen case-reports of tissue necrosis in this area. I am well aware that 5-HT receptors are far too small to be seen in an autopsy, but tissue death is not.

Here is another that further argues MDMA-induced alterations in 5-HT receptors may cause disruptions in cerebrovasculature -
http://www.ajnr.org/cgi/reprint/21/6/1001.pdf

Blood perfusion and glucose metabolism are closely linked.
Due to its effect upon blood distribution, MDMA can disrupt this relationship.
Once again, CBV accidents are mentioned -
http://www.nature.com/jcbfm/journal/v25/n1s/full/9591524.0177a.html

Persistent CBV alterations may not be directly related to 5-HT terminal density, but they may still predispose, or increase the chances of a stroke.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1460-9568.2006.04923.x/full

There is an increased risk of stroke and CBV accidents among MDMA users.
This normally occurs during or shortly after use, but this has also been seen following months of abstinence. No, it is not the most prevalent of complications, but any increase is statistically significant due to the age-group in which it happens.
It is pretty shocking for doctors to see 20 year-olds with facial paralysis.

There is nothing 'pseudo-scientific' about this, and I resent your accusation.
This 'turd' of a thread has actually lead me to being 'helpful' to quite a few BLers.
Many have contacted me because of it.
More than just about any other thread I can think of. Strange...

I'm sure you want to argue with many of the assertions I have made, but 'tear apart' seems a bit over-confident.
I will attempt to participate, when I have the time.