I often come here for advice and always find it useful. I recently saw an inquisitive post/thread which I feel competent in answering. So, this way I'm giving back a little. The thread is followed by my answer.
18-09-2008 15:39 Report Post
I was researching a way to remove Naloxone from Suboxone just so the bupe would be in there, and I think I MAY have a method, gimme your thoughts.
The melting point of Naloxone is 351 - 356F....
The Melting point of Bupe is 519 F.
So in theory, heating a solution of Suboxone to over 356 F but under 519 F would destroy the Naloxone, but keep the Bupe.
Would this work? I'm hoping it would . All it would require is an accurate thermometer and a heat source (hot plate?).
Tell me what you think. If I can get my hands on some suboxone I would experiment, but if you have any on hand, experiment and see what happens...
-lenses
The author describes a method for the separation of the indicated compounds. There is also some debate about it's validity. My background has prepared me for such problems. I was trained as a molecular biologist and I received a minor in chemistry with my degree.
This method is so common and basic that it's taught in introductory classes under the common name: Simple Distillation. It's based on the fact that different compounds have different, unique, and specific physical characteristics. Each has a specific temperature at which it freezes into a solid, a temperature at which it becomes a liquid, and a higher temperature where it boils and turns into a gas. These unique, specific, and known values for these compounds are used to separate basic to mildly complex mixtures of chemicals. The method is described below:
An aqueous (liquid) solution of suboxone is placed in a vessel which can withstand the high temperatures called for:
Naloxone is 351 - 356F
Buprenorphine is 519 F
overview: A solution of Suboxone is heated to temperatures in excess of 519 F. The two components, Naloxone, and buprenorphine can be collected at different temperatures. These temperatures are the specific boiling points for the compounds. Naloxone: 351 to 356 degrees Fahrenheit, Buprenorphine: 519 degrees Fahrenheit
A thermometer is placed in the neck of the vessel, above the solution, but within the vessel. A spot where the liquid solution changes to a gas. In order to collect the gases rising out of the vessel (it may even be called a reaction vessel at this stage) a device called a condensing tube is used. This device may be difficult to visualize w/out seeing it, so google-image it. It is a glass tube with a chamber running around the periphery. A flow of water is sent through the chamber. As the gases from the reaction vessel enter the condensing tube they are hot. Very hot, around 351 degrees F for the lower compound. The periphery of the condensing tube is cold due to the flow of cold water. this causes the gases to condense, changing physically again to a liquid. It can be difficult to set up the equipment correctly to ensure collection of the products. But not too hard. Once you visualize the equipment, or see it in front of you it is common-sensical. The setup of the equipment with a heat source, water source for the condenser, and the thermometer set in the right place will allow you to separate the naloxone from the buprenorphine. The next section will describe how the simple distillation is physically performed.
When the solution is heated, the temperature starts to rise. it is important to pay close attention to the thermometer. As the temperature rises, you will notice something interesting. upon reaching the first boiling point, the lower one, naloxone at 351 df, ,the temperature on the thermometer will stat at 351 df until all of the naloxone boils, or evaporates away. The thermometer will literally stay exactly on 351 df for some time. It will definitely be noticeable. After all of the naloxone is removed you will notice the temperature on the thermometer start to rise again. You then remove the collection vessel, which contains naloxone now. Switch it out for a fresh, clean collection vessel to collect the final and desired product, the buprenorphine. You will observe the same phenomenon in regards to the temperature on the thermometer again. The temperature will rise again to the boiling point of buprenorphine, 519 df. The temperature will stay at this point until the buprenorphine has been removed from the solution. You will know that all of the buprenorphine has been removed when the temperature starts climbing above 519 df. And there you have it. This is the method of simple distillation in regards to the separation of naloxone from buprenorphine. A few issues/problems remain however. See below
1.) An aqueous, liquid, solution is needed for this process. However, water will not work. The boiling point of water
is approximately 200 df. This means that the water would boil off, and be distilled first.
a.) Ideally, a buffer is needed to create an aqueous solution of suboxone. For this situation you'd need something
with a boiling point above that of the buprenorphine.
b.) However, there are other important factors to consider when choosing a buffer. Something is needed with the
physical properties mentioned (high boiling point); however, it also has to remain chemically inert or nonreactive
with the naloxone and buprenorphine. It is also important to ensure the buffer remains inactive at the high
temperatures required.
c.) Another important consideration is an attempt to ensure that the buffer used to create the aqueous solution is
is non toxic.
2.) It is strictly, or theoretically possible for the simple distillation to be performed with no buffer at all, using simply
pharmacy grade suboxone, or the stuff you get a prescription for. The problem I foresee with this method is the
physical characteristics of the suboxone itself. I get the impression that if you put a solid strip in a reaction
chamber and heat it, it may end up scorching. Therefore, if this method is used, the heat should be administered
very slowly and deliberately.
Post Script:
If anyone tries this out by this method, or another distillation method, I'd love to hear your methodology and results
I recently got a 'scrpt for subutex, or bupronorphine alone. I plan on using these IV for the obvious reasons. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm looking for some feedback from anyone who hat. I hope that this was informative, and cleared up any misunderstandings. I hope to hear from you's. I"m interested in your methodology as well as results. Oh, and don't forget, anyone who has IV'ed subutex, or buprenorphine, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the experience. Thanks.
18-09-2008 15:39 Report Post
I was researching a way to remove Naloxone from Suboxone just so the bupe would be in there, and I think I MAY have a method, gimme your thoughts.
The melting point of Naloxone is 351 - 356F....
The Melting point of Bupe is 519 F.
So in theory, heating a solution of Suboxone to over 356 F but under 519 F would destroy the Naloxone, but keep the Bupe.
Would this work? I'm hoping it would . All it would require is an accurate thermometer and a heat source (hot plate?).
Tell me what you think. If I can get my hands on some suboxone I would experiment, but if you have any on hand, experiment and see what happens...
-lenses
The author describes a method for the separation of the indicated compounds. There is also some debate about it's validity. My background has prepared me for such problems. I was trained as a molecular biologist and I received a minor in chemistry with my degree.
This method is so common and basic that it's taught in introductory classes under the common name: Simple Distillation. It's based on the fact that different compounds have different, unique, and specific physical characteristics. Each has a specific temperature at which it freezes into a solid, a temperature at which it becomes a liquid, and a higher temperature where it boils and turns into a gas. These unique, specific, and known values for these compounds are used to separate basic to mildly complex mixtures of chemicals. The method is described below:
An aqueous (liquid) solution of suboxone is placed in a vessel which can withstand the high temperatures called for:
Naloxone is 351 - 356F
Buprenorphine is 519 F
overview: A solution of Suboxone is heated to temperatures in excess of 519 F. The two components, Naloxone, and buprenorphine can be collected at different temperatures. These temperatures are the specific boiling points for the compounds. Naloxone: 351 to 356 degrees Fahrenheit, Buprenorphine: 519 degrees Fahrenheit
A thermometer is placed in the neck of the vessel, above the solution, but within the vessel. A spot where the liquid solution changes to a gas. In order to collect the gases rising out of the vessel (it may even be called a reaction vessel at this stage) a device called a condensing tube is used. This device may be difficult to visualize w/out seeing it, so google-image it. It is a glass tube with a chamber running around the periphery. A flow of water is sent through the chamber. As the gases from the reaction vessel enter the condensing tube they are hot. Very hot, around 351 degrees F for the lower compound. The periphery of the condensing tube is cold due to the flow of cold water. this causes the gases to condense, changing physically again to a liquid. It can be difficult to set up the equipment correctly to ensure collection of the products. But not too hard. Once you visualize the equipment, or see it in front of you it is common-sensical. The setup of the equipment with a heat source, water source for the condenser, and the thermometer set in the right place will allow you to separate the naloxone from the buprenorphine. The next section will describe how the simple distillation is physically performed.
When the solution is heated, the temperature starts to rise. it is important to pay close attention to the thermometer. As the temperature rises, you will notice something interesting. upon reaching the first boiling point, the lower one, naloxone at 351 df, ,the temperature on the thermometer will stat at 351 df until all of the naloxone boils, or evaporates away. The thermometer will literally stay exactly on 351 df for some time. It will definitely be noticeable. After all of the naloxone is removed you will notice the temperature on the thermometer start to rise again. You then remove the collection vessel, which contains naloxone now. Switch it out for a fresh, clean collection vessel to collect the final and desired product, the buprenorphine. You will observe the same phenomenon in regards to the temperature on the thermometer again. The temperature will rise again to the boiling point of buprenorphine, 519 df. The temperature will stay at this point until the buprenorphine has been removed from the solution. You will know that all of the buprenorphine has been removed when the temperature starts climbing above 519 df. And there you have it. This is the method of simple distillation in regards to the separation of naloxone from buprenorphine. A few issues/problems remain however. See below
1.) An aqueous, liquid, solution is needed for this process. However, water will not work. The boiling point of water
is approximately 200 df. This means that the water would boil off, and be distilled first.
a.) Ideally, a buffer is needed to create an aqueous solution of suboxone. For this situation you'd need something
with a boiling point above that of the buprenorphine.
b.) However, there are other important factors to consider when choosing a buffer. Something is needed with the
physical properties mentioned (high boiling point); however, it also has to remain chemically inert or nonreactive
with the naloxone and buprenorphine. It is also important to ensure the buffer remains inactive at the high
temperatures required.
c.) Another important consideration is an attempt to ensure that the buffer used to create the aqueous solution is
is non toxic.
2.) It is strictly, or theoretically possible for the simple distillation to be performed with no buffer at all, using simply
pharmacy grade suboxone, or the stuff you get a prescription for. The problem I foresee with this method is the
physical characteristics of the suboxone itself. I get the impression that if you put a solid strip in a reaction
chamber and heat it, it may end up scorching. Therefore, if this method is used, the heat should be administered
very slowly and deliberately.
Post Script:
If anyone tries this out by this method, or another distillation method, I'd love to hear your methodology and results
I recently got a 'scrpt for subutex, or bupronorphine alone. I plan on using these IV for the obvious reasons. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm looking for some feedback from anyone who hat. I hope that this was informative, and cleared up any misunderstandings. I hope to hear from you's. I"m interested in your methodology as well as results. Oh, and don't forget, anyone who has IV'ed subutex, or buprenorphine, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the experience. Thanks.
If the two forms do differ in effects and it has something to do with Suboxone fillers, etc. then distilling the Naloxone won't make it any better then Suboxone. Either way, I think it would be just as difficult to distill away the Naloxone as it would be to synthesize Buprenorphine.
