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Re: DMSO, & solvents.

Pontius Pilate

Pontius Pilate

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Sep 22, 2014
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Re: DMSO, & solvents.

Specifically, I was wondering whether or not DMSO actually allows transdermal bioavailability? Like, hypothetically, could I make a vial with the new lysergamides that I could dose any which way I wanted, even on my skin? Is DMSO caustic?

Could I use a minimal amount of DMSO necessary to dissolve a powder, then add propylene glycol to volume in a vial? (And would that method reduce any unpleasantness from the DMSO?)

If DMSO is unsuitable, what would the ideal solvent for highly concentrated solutions of potent research chemicals be?

Please and thank you, fellows.
 
If it works, it's a huge waste of lsd. the only reason the squirt guns worked was because they used ridiculous amounts, aimed for the eyes and totally soaked people. You're gonna have to stick to oral administration unless you're laying your own sheets and have the LSD/<insert your lysergamide here> to spare.
 
Squirt guns? Well.. while intriguing, that's not exactly what I meant.

I'm saying, if I had 10mg of 1p-LSD, could I use 1ml of DMSO to dissolve the entire 10mg, then add 9ml of propylene glycol.. which would make a 10ml solution with 100ug/.1cc, right?

The volumetric measurement isn't what I was asking about.. I just had heard that DMSO could make psychoactives transdermally bioavailable. And I wanted to confirm that? Also, I've heard that DMSO is caustic, so that was a concern as well?

Oh, and another big question would be whether or not I can orally ingest DMSO without fear of digestive retribution? Lol..
 
I'm not an expert in this area but I do know that it depends on the chemical structure of whatever you're using. A lot of vets use DMSO on animals for certain medications but there are medications for which this won't work. Like I said, if it does work, it won't be very efficient.
 
DMSO is remarkably nontoxic.

A 10% solution of DMSO is not the same as pure DMSO. If your substance is soluble in DMSO, but insoluble in propylene glycol, then it will probably crash back out when you add the propylene glycol. I suspect, however, that LSD tartarate would be soluble in both things.
 
Pure DMSO denatures skin proteins, causing scaling, hot feelings and irritation.
Oral ingestion is possible and actually practiced in certain medical communities though pure is too high a concentration apparently.. Again I would worry about tissue being affected but, not sure. I assume your question is hypothetical, at least some dilution is reasonable.

I guess both hydrophilic and lipophilic drugs can be effectively dissolved and transported.. Limits may have to do with iirc molecule size.

Dont think that substances crash out when you mix solvents.. I hear DMSO works well for initial dissolution and subsequent mixing into another solvent even if that normally accomodates the drug itself quite moderately..
But no it should not be aversive lol
 
Dr. Nichols said:
And yesterday I was talking to Nick Sand, and Nick said, "I made a solution of LSD in DMSO…" -- DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) is a chemical that greatly enhances absorption of other chemicals through the skin -- he says, "…I painted it on my skin. Nothing happened."
Click to expand...

From here.
 
Solipsis said:
Dont think that substances crash out when you mix solvents..
Click to expand...
Slowly adding a different solvent by vapor diffusion is a common way that chemists recrystallize things. The solubility of a substance in a series of solvents roughly tracks with the dielectric constant of the solvents, or with the weighted average of the dielectric constant of a mixture of solvents.

Propylene glycol and DMSO have similar dielectric constants, though, and LSD tartarate is soluble in DMSO, so it's probably soluble in propylene glycol also. However, I wouldn't recommend dissolving anything in DMSO, honestly. It's common knowledge among chemists that, once you dissolve something in DMSO, it will have DMSO in it forever. It's just impossible to get rid of that high-bp garlickey-smelling solvent. If it crashed back out, you would end up with a pile of lysergic DMSO mush that was impossible to dry.
 
Agreed certainly about the last bit: do not use DMSO unless you actually plan to store it as DMSO solution. It solidifies in the fridge, not that practical... also apparently ethanol being a protic polar solvent lends some stability to a lysergic solution so solutions with other solvents may actually lack that and be even more sensitive than normal.. not great if you wish to store at room temperature.

Using DMSO and wanting to recover your solid lysergic compound seems silly though, when is that ever a plan?

Luckily any DMSO experiment like this has that 'experiment' written all over it. To be done if you have product to spare and/or are unbearably curious. I would ask: considering lysergoids superior bioavailability and fundal absorption, how is this not a hipster novelty niche thing, if not out of scientific curiosity?
 
Solipsis said:
Agreed certainly about the last bit: do not use DMSO unless you actually plan to store it as DMSO solution. It solidifies in the fridge, not that practical... also apparently ethanol being a protic polar solvent lends some stability to a lysergic solution so solutions with other solvents may actually lack that and be even more sensitive than normal.. not great if you wish to store at room temperature.

Using DMSO and wanting to recover your solid lysergic compound seems silly though, when is that ever a plan?

Luckily any DMSO experiment like this has that 'experiment' written all over it. To be done if you have product to spare and/or are unbearably curious. I would ask: considering lysergoids superior bioavailability and fundal absorption, how is this not a hipster novelty niche thing, if not out of scientific curiosity?
Click to expand...

On the grateful dead lots people used to go around with super soakers and soak DEA agents. They would use multiple wash bottles, so there could easily be hundreds, sometimes possibly even thousands of doses in that water (I'm talking about people who used to walk around with backpacks full of sheets). According to rock med nurses, it was effective, but chemists have dosed through their skin and felt no effects. It's mostly about practicality I think.
 
Solipsis literally answered all my questions.. Thanks much, I appreciate the concise chemistry lessons here.

This is just curiosity, too. Although, the bit about additional stability offered by an alcohol solution is really useful information to have.

Oh, and shout out to SKL; nice find.
 
Pontius Pilate,

Maybe you'll find this thread on the dmtnexus interesting, even though it's not specifically about lysergamides :
(The TRANSDERMAL DMT Thread)
https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=32309

DMSO is mentioned as a possible solvent but maybe a dangerous one, requiring as much attention as IV administration:

DMSO will greatly increase absorption and likely pull any toxins (large or small) present on your skin threw as well. Pretty much anything that DMSO can form a solvent shell around will make it across. It's not the toxicity of DMSO that is the danger. It's the toxicity of what DMSO can drag along with it.
Click to expand...
don't know much about that myself.

btw If you would make an psychedelic ointment you could wash your hands with that :)
 
I'll read through that link, the nexus is another goldmine like here. Thanks!

The quoted word of warning is an interesting consideration. Gonna need a full antiseptic scrubdown, surgery-style. Lol.
Nah, frankly, it really is just a lark.
I may use DMSO in tryptamine vials, just to try to fit as much substance into the least amount of liquid possible.
As far as the lysergamides, I'll probably just use an alcohol and propylene glycol solution. Maybe I'll flavor it lol.

And on a related note, I've used transdermal datura extract, years ago. That was pretty out there, and very effective. The traditional witches' recipe called for denatured fats, soot, and a bit of cooking; I think it'd still be posted somewhere in the Datura B&D..
 
Nick Sand (LSD chemist) once prepared a LSD in DMSO solution and painted himself with it, no effects.

Save your LSD and take it orally. The skin is such a wonderful chemical barrier that absorbing LSD would take a very concentrated dosage... and open wounds.
 
So, it's just too big a molecule? Or is it incorrect that DMSO can transdermally infuse certain medications? Otherwise I am not quite following what makes LSD unsuitable.
 
Is it possible the DMSO just tears the LSD apart, like a reaction between the two which neutralizes the acid
 
Solipsis said:
So, it's just too big a molecule? Or is it incorrect that DMSO can transdermally infuse certain medications? Otherwise I am not quite following what makes LSD unsuitable.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty bad at sciencing, but I think you might be confusing skin absorption catalysis with mere solubility.

Say you're trying to disolve substance A in solvent B. The solubility level will be mostly a function of dipole similarity between the two compounds. The sort of stuff that would be pretty easy for me to predict if I were just a bit better at sciencing.

...but if your goal is to get something into your bloodstream by specifically absorbing it through your skin under the influence of a catalyst, it seems to me that you're adding another two variables into the equation - your skin and the proposed catalyst, in this case DMSO.

I'd really want you to think about higher order effects here.

But the plot thickens. The goal with LSD is to get it...into your brain, I think? And so smoking it is decent and ingesting is (for most people) the way to go.

Now here's the thing about DMSO. The first time I ever heard of it was in the context of using it as an aid for the deployment of medicine topically. Specifically arthritis medicine.

Let's say that you have a type of medicine that you want to get into your elbow. Can you smoke it? Maybe. Can you ingest it? Maybe. But both smoking a medicine and digesting it will both probably destroy some of the chemical in the process (and really, who cares?) but worse you have no real assurance that it will concentrate in your elbow. In both cases I think it will probably diffuse over much of your body. Maybe concentrate in fat or organs or something? Tough to predict.

But the advantage of DMSO is that it assists, if I understand correctly, with topical absorption. Kind of the same way I'd suppose that some people who actually use CBD as a muscle relaxer prefer to use the patch, because then more of it ends up on the problem area and less of it ends up making them low-key high.

So I suppose if you were interested in absorbing LSD into your elbow....my big question would be why? Don't you want it to go into your brain? I mean I've heard some people claim that they get crazy visuals from taking a diluted drop of acid into their eye. But I don't know.

Why may I ask wouldn't you just want the acid to go to your brain? Probably I misunderstand what you're trying to do. Also, I'm bad at sciencing.
 
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