Questions on 3-meo-pcp and keatamine

[T9358]

Its well mnown that ketamine can damage the bladder and kidneys, does this hold true for 3-meo-pcp?

I understand that certian metabolites from ketamine and its RC relatives can cause this damage, i am looking to reduce harm to the body and would like. To know if there is any documented pharmokenetics on 3-meo-pcp or its relatives. And what long term or short damage may present itself from usage, also while i have you intelligent folks here

Is there any news on methoxetamines potential for kidney damage/bladder in flamation. Would 3-meo be a good "booster" for mxe as to comserve materials and make a unique expirience- ive read the big an dandies
Thankyou ahead of time

 

[We Are God]

Over the past couple years, it became clear that ketamine can cause bladder damage. Ketamine is a well tested chemical, 3-MeO-PCP isn't, so no one can say whether it does or doesn't cause bladder damage. Besides, no one should really experience any difficulties with their bladder or kidneys from moderate ketamine use. These problems occur if you're using north of a gram per day. This was discovered as people got addicted and started using grams per day and it still took years for it to be exposed as the truth. It might take years before more info will be available on mxe. And for 3-MeO-PCP, this will probably disappear from the market before things are discovered about this substance.

Be safe and don't binge too much/long on these chemicals.

Although, I'm also starting to get interested in 3-MeO-PCP. I don't know too much about it but it seems interesting... need to know a little more about the dangers. If it's like PCP or is it something completely different.

 

[T9358]

I wasnt sure on the dosages of ketamine or the frequency of use that was resulting in the damage. This class deserves and demands respect, thank you for your response,

 

[Asante]

I am a believer in the Enone hypothesis of Ketamine bladder damage. Basically, if you take ketamine the major metabolite in urine is dehydronorketamine. Dehydronorketamine contains the Cyclohexenone functional group, which is a reactive, alkylating irritant toxin because of its contained enone group. Passing hundreds of milligrams of this irritant poison regularly through the bladder is probably the main cause of ketamine bladder toxicity, especially as arylcyclohexylamine metabolites tend to penetrate the bladder wall.

3-MeO-PCP doesn't produce any enone metabolites. Not any. On top of that, the number of milligrams typically consumed is considerably less as of ketamine. So if the enone hypothesis holds true as the cause of ketamine bladder toxicity then no, 3-MeO-PCP will not cause that issue.

Another very related molecule is PCP, its extremely close to 3-MeO-PCP. PCP doesnt cause significant bladder toxicity, but abuse of it DOES cause kidney toxicity, so likely this is the case with 3-MeO too, probably no bladder toxicity but risk of kidney toxicity upon abuse.

 

[Toz]

The dosages of 3-meo-pcp are so low I have a hard time seeing it causing problems even if it did have any bad metabolites which it most likely don't.

While we are talking pharmacokinetics, does anyone have any idea why I get unusually long duration from 3-meo-pcp? I seem to get a much longer duration of action than anyone on this board and my friends, one dose seem to last a whole week at least. Stack doses on top of each other and I can easily get 1+ month of aftereffects. Tolerance sets in and takes care of most dissociation but the drug just doesn't seem to get metabolized at all. It takes forever to clear out.

 

[Mude]

A warning

I am a believer in the Enone hypothesis of Ketamine bladder damage. Basically, if you take ketamine the major metabolite in urine is dehydronorketamine. Dehydronorketamine contains the Cyclohexenone functional group, which is a reactive, alkylating irritant toxin because of its contained enone group. Passing hundreds of milligrams of this irritant poison regularly through the bladder is probably the main cause of ketamine bladder toxicity, especially as arylcyclohexylamine metabolites tend to penetrate the bladder wall.

3-MeO-PCP doesn't produce any enone metabolites. Not any. On top of that, the number of milligrams typically consumed is considerably less as of ketamine. So if the enone hypothesis holds true as the cause of ketamine bladder toxicity then no, 3-MeO-PCP will not cause that issue.

Another very related molecule is PCP, its extremely close to 3-MeO-PCP. PCP doesnt cause significant bladder toxicity, but abuse of it DOES cause kidney toxicity, so likely this is the case with 3-MeO too, probably no bladder toxicity but risk of kidney toxicity upon abuse.

I managed to somehow do something to my bladder using 2-oxo-pce/O-PCE this last summer. I never used high doses, probably in the range of 10mg (I'm afraid I can't really say as I eyeballed the doses, but I've never been one to require or want huge amounts of dissociatives anyway). This I think coincided with mild Etizolam withdrawal symptoms (I used it on and off - about 2mg every 2-3 days for several months). I've always had issues with my bladder (started out with a "shy bladder" as a 10-year old, couldn't pee in front of others, still can't). Adding to that I've started to develop what they call CPPS (chronic pelvic pain syndrome) at the age of about 15. I didn't know the diagnosis for sure until I was 23.
Anyway, because of these problems, I think that my bladder/urinary tract (and prostate) is particularly vulnerable to any drug induced side effects.
I admit, I did take the O-PCE daily for a while (2-3 weeks maybe), but like I said, I kept doses pretty low. At some point, I started having difficulties urinating which made me reeeeaally paranoid (I think due to the Etizolam withdrawal making me excessively worry about my health). I started having this constant pressure in my bladder area which made me even more paranoid. I also started having to urinate more often than usual; my bladder didn't seem to hold quite as much as it used to.
It was enough to make me stop using (luckily), but one evening (perhaps a day or two after my last dose) the feeling of pressure was so distressing that I went to the hospital where they did an ultrasound of the bladder. The doctor said that my bladder wall had thickened, I never mentioned any drugs except for "Benzos" to her due to the stigma, as Ketamine and similar drugs aren't very common at all over here.
From this time onwards, I've had mild urinary incontinence: It's like whenever I pee, not all urine gets expelled, a tiny bit stays inside and as soon as I get up (I pee sitting down because I'm lazy) and walk around/sit back down somewhere, it'll come out. It's not much, but it's annoying and embarrassing as hell at my age. This never got better, even after seizing use of any dissociatives for months.

I never had problems like this with Methoxphenidine (which I really like/d). Unfortunately, recently I've found out that my vendor has stopped selling MXP due to it's low popularity.
Sooo, looking for a bladder-friendly substitute, or rather an alternative, I came across 3-MeO-PCP. I tried it for the first time last night (a small amount of 5-10mg, probably closer to 5mg, however I can't say, as again, I eyeballed the dose), and didn't have any problems at first.
However later in the evening I began experiencing this mild pressure in the area of my bladder again. This is pretty disappointing for me as it looks like I'll have to quit taking any dissociatives (which have become my favourite class of drugs and sort of helped me stay abstinent from opioids).
I mean even after not taking any dissociatives for months, and then taking a small dose of the 3-MeO-PCP, I noticed these symptoms, albeit mild ones.
This morning I noticed a very mild stinging sensation in my bladder. There doesn't seem to be any blood in my urine which I'm glad about.
But I just wanted to let people know that it seems like 3-MeO-PCP isn't much better than O-PCE or probably even Ketamine in regards to it's effects on the bladder. The small dosages don't seem to have anything to do with it either, not for me anyway.
Again, I'll stress that I've had a long history of psychosomatic bladder symptoms, so I'm probably kinda predisposed and vulnerable towards any negative effects cause by these substances. But let this still be somewhat of a warning to people. Like I said, my bladder never recovered, even after months of abstinence, and believe me, it's not something you want to experience. I'm just glad I stopped when I did and didn't take it further.

Edit: I'll try a similar dose tonight, and if my symptoms get any worse, I'll probably flush the remainder of it.
If anyone has any idea on how to reduce the toxicity (drink more water than usual to dilute urine?), please let me know.
Also, sorry for reviving an old thread, but I thought it'd be better than creating one of it's own.

 

[Vastness]

I am a believer in the Enone hypothesis of Ketamine bladder damage. Basically, if you take ketamine the major metabolite in urine is dehydronorketamine. Dehydronorketamine contains the Cyclohexenone functional group, which is a reactive, alkylating irritant toxin because of its contained enone group. Passing hundreds of milligrams of this irritant poison regularly through the bladder is probably the main cause of ketamine bladder toxicity, especially as arylcyclohexylamine metabolites tend to penetrate the bladder wall.

3-MeO-PCP doesn't produce any enone metabolites. Not any. On top of that, the number of milligrams typically consumed is considerably less as of ketamine. So if the enone hypothesis holds true as the cause of ketamine bladder toxicity then no, 3-MeO-PCP will not cause that issue.

Do you have a source for this idea? I googled "ketamine bladder enone hypothesis" and related/similar terms but I'm not finding anything.

This seems counter to the various (admittedly, possibly, unreliable, but seemingly fairly common) anecdotal reports of bladder weirdness being caused by other arylcyclohexylamine dissociatives, which (presumably) do not have this metabolite.

Scientifically, as far as I am aware (and as far as I could tell following a quick google just now) MXE has been linked to similar bladder damage as ketamine, which would seem to indicate that there is a not insignificant risk that actually the bladder effects are connected to the entire arylcyclohexylamine class rather than just ketamine alone.

Tellingly, the 'phenidines do not seem to result in any bladder symptoms (again, just as far as I am aware, I'm not sure if it has actually been studied).

So actually I would say that it is at least plausible, even, perhaps, likely, that in high enough doses, 3-MeO-PCP, and probably PCP itself, does cause the same bladder effects as Ketamine. However as others have stated, because of the comparative dosages typically required compared to Ketamine, any "damage" is likely to be fleeting, recoverable, and not even detectable by the user.

An interesting, if scary thought would be the question of whether the damage is indeed caused in a dose-dependent manner by some unidentified metabolite(s), or if the damage was unavoidably coupled in some way to the actual psychoactive effect (and thus independent of the actual potency-by-weight of the substance). Fortunately I think we can discount the latter possibility, there was a study done fairly recently which attempted to answer this exact question of whether the damage "is triggered by urinary or systemic factors"... It was found that regions of the bladder wall higher up the bladder and thus not as exposed to urine were not as affected, so I think that if nothing else, we can at least say with reasonable certainty that more potent arylcyclohexylamine dissociatives are indeed safer for your bladder.

One final point that I would add, I see the "gram a day" limit being thrown around a lot but actually I think this could have a somewhat harmful effect by lulling some people into a false sense of security. This figure isn't a result of any rigorous analysis, just a vague approximation of the median usage of the most severely affected users. There does seem to be a lot of variation in individual susceptibility to bladder damage, and while some people no doubt can do a lot more than a gram a day for weeks or months on end and be fine, for others even a gram a day a few days in a row could be already too much. In my uneducated (but I would like to think somewhat informed) opinion I would say a better limit would be a "1-2 grams a week", although again I have no data to back this up and I feel we'll probably be waiting a long time to see any.

 

[Solipsis]

Aside from the enone hypothesis, ketamine has been shown to have a threshold dosage for this kind of damage so yes it does seem to be dose-dependent (why wouldn't it be). Since drugs like 3-MeO-PCP have a much higher potency, even if whatever property or metabolite causes it would be the same, the concentration reached would never be as high, not unless you are a massive abuser of 3-MeO-PCP at which point your bladder may be the least of your concerns and then the fact that PCP type substances stay in your body for much longer start working against you, although you would still gradually be getting rid of them by peeing out metabolites bit by bit.
MXE is much more similar to ketamine in terms of how much people may abuse I think, and also considerably closer to it chemically. So more realistic to get similar damage eventually.

Anyway I wouldn't worry about it too much personally with 3-MeO-PCP, or it would have to be some major bad luck if its irritant effects were proportionally stronger vs potency. For that matter the enone hypothesis is a little pointless if you don't really know how to compare the respective metabolites, not to mention that the metabolism is quite different.

WHY would it be likely that 3-MeO-PCP / PCP have effectively the same potential for bladder damage (which is not to say that they would be equally bad if you would put like 150 mg of these PCP compounds directly into your bladder)? You didn't say effectively but that is the questio

And no the link with psychoactive effects did seem rather unlikely.

Unfortunately I don't have the details on data analysis some doc made on damage being consistent with certain dosage... but it's safe to say it falls in another category of abuse / lifestyle than ~1 gram a day of K. If your bladder is dear to you, a few grams per month - spread out - seems more than enough.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

3meo PCP is the only disso that first caused me bladder and urination frequency and pains.

 

[Mude]

Update

So, after dosing once more last night, I haven't had any pressure in my bladder, however I now have mild pains in that region. Dosages were eye-balled and insufflated. The first dose was probably in the 5mg range. The second one closer to 10mg's.

On a side note: About 10-25 mins after the second dose (which was taken approximately 1.5h after the first), the effects began to overwhelm me, so I laid down on a sofa. My heart rate went up to 150bpm, I wasn't able to measure my BP as I didn't have a sphygmomanometer. My extremities went very cold, and my whole body began to shiver. I guess that's my punishment for eye-balling the doses. I dosed 0.75mg Etizolam, and after about an hour I was back to normal.
I'm wondering if this could have been serotonin syndrome or simply an "overdose" of 3-MeO-PCP. I'm inclined to say it wasn't serotonin syndrome as these severe symptoms went away after such a short period of time. The reason why I thought it may be SS is because I'm on Buprenorphine, and Buprenorphine indirectly acts on serotonin:

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/658561-Suboxone-Patients-at-High-Risk-for-Serotonin-Syndrome

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/776124

If anyone has any input, I'd be happy to hear it, although I do realise that this thread isn't about that at all. So apologies for digressing.

 

[Solipsis]

While buprenorphine puts you at risk of SS, I am not hearing any symptoms that specifically indicate SS rather than just being more or less regular for PCP / 3-MeO-PCP although yes that HR is rather high, the coldness can be par for the course. Might certainly have had elevated serotonin levels with that shivering but with a serious case of SS it seems like you would also expect other, more particular, symptoms. But yeah you may have been on your way toward a SS.
Question is also: is there such a thing as 'mild serotonin syndrome' ? The syndrome refers to a constellation of symptoms and a very serious and potentially life-threatening condition. More isolated symptoms and no signs of a life-threatening condition instead indicate elevated serotonin levels or something of the sort which would definitely be a warning sign.

Just don't eyeball your dosages with a drug like this even when you're not on bupe... and do realize you are putting yourself at increased risk. 3-MeO-PCP is not a drug you can tolerate mistakes with in general.

Not sure what pains in that region say... it's not necessarily scarring or cystitis etc and frequent urination is a problem with many drugs. If however even after stopping use of the drugs that may cause side-effects like such pains you continue to feel like your bladder feels inflexible, thick and painful somehow.. that would be a different matter. I got early signs from abusing K in the past but fortunately I quit a pretty good while ago and it did not develop into something that bothers me significantly.

 

[Mude]

Thanks for your quick reply, Solipsis!

I admit and regret that eyeballing the doses was a really stupid thing to do (and always is). It's just hard to weigh such small doses on scales. I should use volumetric dosing.
The tachycardia did scare me a bit at that point, however, I'm generally quite an anxious person, so the anxiety about the symptoms probably didn't help much. And like I said, after dosing Etizolam, I was back to normal within an hour.
I'll try and read up some more on Serotonin Syndrome. I've had several drug experiences where I'd gotten ridiculously paranoid about "possibly having developed SS".

I just have no idea how I would have to handle a situation like that except for calling an ambulance. I'm guessing antipsychotics which antagonise certain 5HT receptors would not be beneficial? I have access to Prothipendyl which antagonises 5-HT2a. I suppose taking that in such a situation could possibly even be dangerous as one of it's side effects can be tachycardia? And from what I've gathered, antipsychotics can actually increase serotonin, is that correct? Supposedly, prevention is better than treating it when it has already happened...
At the time, my friends tried to comfort me by saying things like "if you were really dying, you wouldn't be lying on the sofa able to speak to us", but I have no idea what someone who suffers from SS looks and behaves like.


In regards to the bladder symptoms I'm somewhat confused.
Today I'm feeling a lot better, no pressure, hardly any pain.
I think I've mentioned before that I've been diagnosed with CPPS (chronic pelvic pain syndrome, probably due to anxiety/stress/tension), so it's hard for me to differentiate those symptoms from possible side effects of 3-MeO-PCP.
But when I had those mild pains, I was pretty sure that they felt kind of different from the ones I usually had. Apart from that, they seemed to not be located exactly in the middle of the bladder. They seemed to be symmetric, on both sides, leading me to think that perhaps it was the muscles (psoas) after all.

I'm luckily not experiencing any increased urinary frequency, but my bladder still doesn't seem to be able to hold "normal amounts". Usually between 250-300ml which isn't too bad, I suppose. But AFAIK, 400-500ml is "normal".

Anyway, I'd like to apologise for my somewhat confusing/conflicting anecdotal experience report. I think I'll observe my symptoms for a while with and without consumption of 3-MeO-PCP, and write another post about it when I might be more sure of whether or not 3-MeO-PCP was the cause or not.


Edit/Update:
I'm 99% sure my symptoms were caused by the 3-MeO-PCP, as they've first gotten worse, then better after seizing it's use. I'm soo disappointed. Anyway, I've found another thread where someone talked about Ketamine's negative effects on the prostate (http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...-much-were-you-taking?p=14195122#post14195122 it's the second post for anyone interested).
So I'm pretty sure arylcyclohexylamines and CPPS/chronic prostatis don't mix well. Let this be a warning to anyone suffering from CPPS/prostate issues.
I'd love to open up a thread about it, but I'm not sure how many Ketamine/disso users with CPPS there are. Probably not many, so there doesn't seem to be much point.