Bupe Questions about suboxone

[Trev26]

Ok guys, I got a couple questions about suboxone. Long story short, I'm in chronic pain and my doctors don't do anything to manage my pain, so I've been self medicating for the last 2 years with various pills, but more consistently with 30mg oxycodone. My tolerance was fairly high towards the end of me taking the oxy, as in 120mg a day. I would take one 30, 4× a day.

Anyways, so when I ran out, and i couldn't get anymore I started to panic. Not because of withdrawals or anything, but because I couldn't stand being in horrific debilitating pain so I went to see this sketchy suboxone doctor who eventually prescribed me 8/2 subs. I've read that bube, and especially suboxone work really well for chronic pain, and to my surprise it did! Well, I broke the 8mg pills into quarters and have probably been taking 8mg total throughout a day, so 24 hours. I haven't taken any opioids in over 2 weeks, and also I want to make it clear that i experienced ZERO withdrawals when I ran out of my oxy and went on the subs. Don't know if I'm lucky or what, but I went to the subs for chronic pain, NOT addiction, or withdrawal.

My questions are now that I'm taking 8mg in 24 hours, is that somehow going to block the pain relief of the oxy? I haven't taken any opioids in over 2 weeks so should my tolerance have significantly dropped?

I dont really understand this class of drug, but the doctor was telling me if I take any opioids with the suboxone in my system then I would go into full blown withdrawal. I have actually never experienced opioid withdrawal in my life, and I have taken large amounts for consecutive months and just stopped no problem. Can someone please explain how this works, and if I would be ok to use the oxy with the subs still in my system.

Thanks in advance for any replys. To a self medicating rookie in search for some decent advice.

 

[KS78]

You won't go into withdrawals if you use opiates after Suboxone.You will still geta pain relief but you won't get high at the beginning. On the other hand, if you take Suboxone after you have been using oxy or another opiate, you will go into very intense withdrawals very rapidly. Good luck, be safe.

 

[Sertürner]

If you have taken the bupe recently (within the past 24-72hrs) the effects of the oxy will be dampened significantly. Bupe has a half-life of 37hrs so it takes a while for it to leave your receptors. If you have not taken any bupe for a good 3-7 days, then you should feel the effects of the oxy. Since bupe is very potent already then your tolerance shouldn't be affected too much if you have been taking it continuously.

I was a little confused on the post so I'll give the second scenario I pictured from your description. If you havent taken any opioids including bupe for 2 weeks, then it should be out of your system and you will feel the full effects of the oxycodone. Your tolerance may have dropped a bit as well so it would be wise to lower your dosage if you have been opioid free for 2 weeks.

 

[DrewDogBaby209]

Your tolerance will not go down with bupe or methadone... It will skyrocket like crazy. I've been on methadone for 3 1/2 yrs with 6 take homes a week and absolutely wonderful pain relief and I can tell you without a doubt that NOTHING will get me high after being on methadone. Even though I'm not trying to get high but it will probably never happen again but I've made peace with that you feel me? Good luck bro... Also, I wanted to let you know that I think about you quite often brotha. Like I said months ago... I'm praying for you brother! I appreciate you my dude.

 

[swilow]

I dont really understand this class of drug, but the doctor was telling me if I take any opioids with the suboxone in my system then I would go into full blown withdrawal.

That doesn't sound quite right to me. My understanding is that if you are dependant on opiates and take bupe, you will enter withdrawal. Bupe is a partial agonist with high affinity for the mu opioid receptor. It will displace full agonists from the receptor meaning you experience a net loss in agonism. In real terms, that will feel like withdrawal symptoms and only opiates that can displace bupe will rectify this. I don't think there are many readily available opiates that would do this.

I may misunderstand this but when I was on bupe, I accidentally precipitated withdrawal a few times by doing this...

 

[Sertürner]

Your tolerance will not go down with bupe or methadone... It will skyrocket like crazy. I've been on methadone for 3 1/2 yrs with 6 take homes a week and absolutely wonderful pain relief and I can tell you without a doubt that NOTHING will get me high after being on methadone. Even though I'm not trying to get high but it will probably never happen again but I've made peace with that you feel me? Good luck bro... Also, I wanted to let you know that I think about you quite often brotha. Like I said months ago... I'm praying for you brother! I appreciate you my dude.

Are you still in the methadone? Methadone binds extremely well to receptors and is nearly impossible to knock them off with other opioids. This is why you cant feel other opioids while taking it. It will raise your tolerance as well though depending on dosage and length of use.

 

[Painful One]

That doesn't sound quite right to me. My understanding is that if you are dependant on opiates and take bupe, you will enter withdrawal. Bupe is a partial agonist with high affinity for the mu opioid receptor. It will displace full agonists from the receptor meaning you experience a net loss in agonism. In real terms, that will feel like withdrawal symptoms and only opiates that can displace bupe will rectify this. I don't think there are many readily available opiates that would do this.

I may misunderstand this but when I was on bupe, I accidentally precipitated withdrawal a few times by doing this...

This ^^^ is my understanding of the medication suboxone too.

Trev,
Did the good feelings go away with the suboxone?
You haven’t been using suboxone for that long. You could choose to do a taper and come off of all opiates and see how things are.
Maybe you could get by with just using oxy when things get flared up? Or suboxone?
If you don’t take it everyday, you won’t become dependent and it will keep making you feel uplifted. Major relief from pain.
But then there are days without.

I just thought I would mention that, now would be the time to drop the suboxone if it is not going to work for ya.
It would not be hard to change over to something else right now.
The suboxone doctor might help. They are educated in pain (or are supposed to be anyway) .

You might want to talk with FutureReference about this. He seemed to know more about it.
He also used it for chronic pain.

I know this is a really hard problem. I stand by whatever decision you make. I want you to have the best quality of life as is possible.

 

[DrewDogBaby209]

With any drug... methadone and subs included... The fun always... Disappears! This is just an addicts reality!

 

[Quere]

My questions are now that I'm taking 8mg in 24 hours, is that somehow going to block the pain relief of the oxy? I haven't taken any opioids in over 2 weeks so should my tolerance have significantly dropped?

I dont really understand this class of drug, but the doctor was telling me if I take any opioids with the suboxone in my system then I would go into full blown withdrawal. I have actually never experienced opioid withdrawal in my life, and I have taken large amounts for consecutive months and just stopped no problem. Can someone please explain how this works, and if I would be ok to use the oxy with the subs still in my system.

Thanks in advance for any replys. To a self medicating rookie in search for some decent advice.

It seems like the doctor didn't explain to you that buprenorphine (suboxone) is also an opioid. A highly potent one too. Although it is a partial agonist (aka a mixed agonist/antagonist) as opposed to a full agonist like most well known opioids.

I don't know how Drs get away with not making sure their patient knows what they're taking, what the effects are and the potential side effects.

Taking opioids will not put you into withdrawal but the effect may be dampened, how much depends on the individual (I did heroin many times at my pre-sub dose while on bupe and always got high, so it just goes to show that what is true for most is still not true for everyone).

If someone who is dependent on full agonist opioids takes buprenorphine before being in withdrawal, they will be catapulted into a highly unpleasant state known as precipitated withdrawal (PW). I have seen reports of PW lasting only 1-2 hours but have also seen people saying it lasts much longer.

IME if someone who is dependent on bupe takes full agonist opioids and then before the effect wears off takes their next dose of bupe they will not go into withdrawal (at least from my experience and observations) so what is important to avoid PW is to NOT take Buprenorphine if you are dependent on full agonist opioids UNLESS you are already in withdrawal from said full agonist opioids.

 

[KS78]

I went through PW while I was using heroin (between 1 to 2 grams a day) which started in 15 minutes of taking buprenorphine and lasted about a day. Another time, I went through it while I was on a fast taper from 220 mgs of methadone which lasted more than a day but not exactly 2 days. I definitely blame the ignorant health "professional" for this. It seems that informed users know and understand the process much better than many doctors and nurses. I also suspect that many of them basicly don't give a fuck about what an addict will go through. I know (from conversations with them, their attitude towards the addicts) that some even welcome it as a punishment to the addict. Another messed up point is that they usually argue with you or do exactly the opposite when you tell them what the correct way, timing of doing things. There are some good ones but many of them are as ignorant as a person on the street and they definitely have a huge ego which troubles them when they are questioned about the way they do things.

 

[Sertürner]

Most of the active members here probably know more about suboxone than the doctors who prescribe it. To be come licensed in buprenorphine treatment, a 72hr course about the drug is all it takes to start a handing it out =/

 

[Zonxx]

Most of the active members here probably know more about suboxone than the doctors who prescribe it. To be come licensed in buprenorphine treatment, a 72hr course about the drug is all it takes to start a handing it out =/

that is madness

 

[Quere]

I went through PW while I was using heroin (between 1 to 2 grams a day) which started in 15 minutes of taking buprenorphine and lasted about a day. Another time, I went through it while I was on a fast taper from 220 mgs of methadone which lasted more than a day but not exactly 2 days. I definitely blame the ignorant health "professional" for this. It seems that informed users know and understand the process much better than many doctors and nurses. I also suspect that many of them basicly don't give a fuck about what an addict will go through. I know (from conversations with them, their attitude towards the addicts) that some even welcome it as a punishment to the addict. Another messed up point is that they usually argue with you or do exactly the opposite when you tell them what the correct way, timing of doing things. There are some good ones but many of them are as ignorant as a person on the street and they definitely have a huge ego which troubles them when they are questioned about the way they do things.

What I hate is how if you get upset or angry at your doctor/'drug treatment providers'/case manager etc they decide your unstable and use their power to fuck with your takeaways dose etc.

And I have never met a medical professional that knew as much as I do about this stuff.

Usually I play dumb and pander to their egos though, LOL I am a sneaky motherfucker. Oh you're so smart mister Dr sir!

Oh and the fuckin Dr just straight tells me it's impossible to get high while I'm on subs (as a justification for not switching to methadone after sub had stopped handling my cravings and i started using on top) I'm like wtf maybe it is for some people but I was always able to feel opioids while on sub (without having to increase the dose or anything). Like it's fucking rule one that we all respond differently to drugs and though there is an average response there are also others, paradoxical effects etc. don't just look me in the eye and straight up deny my reality.

Ooooooh

You guys gotta read this, it's really interesting. As someone on methadone it was the most interesting thing Ive read in a while

Challenging biopower: “Liquid cuffs” and the “Junkie” habitus

Methadone maintenance treatment program (MMTP) is associated with improved quality of life amongst many heroin users. Still, program adherence problems remain a fact.To improve our understanding of MMTP “adherence problems”.Using snowball ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[KS78]

I think that once we have some experience with this "I know everything and I know the best" attitude of these doctors, most of us start playing dumb. It gets really annoying to stop yourself from arguing with them because it's quite certain that they will fuck with you one way or another.
I also haven't met with any of them that knows as much as I do regarding these subjects either. That's a shame though; I wish it was the other way around.

 

[Keif' Richards]

When you're learning Spanish and you think you have a good handle on it. Then you learn about "usted" and "level of respect" and "dialects". You realize you should've taken Spanish 2 before flying to Medellin for Cuka-Tourism.

Buprenorphine is extremely complicated. In an of itself it is, but then the debate surrounding the efficacy of Naloxone in the combo Suboxone makes it even moreso.

Please read and read OP. If you want to really understand the differences, it will take some doing. Basically. If it is working for you I would stick with it.

 

[Jack123456]

What I hate is how if you get upset or angry at your doctor/'drug treatment providers'/case manager etc they decide your unstable and use their power to fuck with your takeaways dose etc.

And I have never met a medical professional that knew as much as I do about this stuff.

Usually I play dumb and pander to their egos though, LOL I am a sneaky motherfucker. Oh you're so smart mister Dr sir!

Oh and the fuckin Dr just straight tells me it's impossible to get high while I'm on subs (as a justification for not switching to methadone after sub had stopped handling my cravings and i started using on top) I'm like wtf maybe it is for some people but I was always able to feel opioids while on sub (without having to increase the dose or anything). Like it's fucking rule one that we all respond differently to drugs and though there is an average response there are also others, paradoxical effects etc. don't just look me in the eye and straight up deny my reality.

Ooooooh

You guys gotta read this, it's really interesting. As someone on methadone it was the most interesting thing Ive read in a while

Challenging biopower: “Liquid cuffs” and the “Junkie” habitus

Methadone maintenance treatment program (MMTP) is associated with improved quality of life amongst many heroin users. Still, program adherence problems remain a fact.To improve our understanding of MMTP “adherence problems”.Using snowball ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The article is certainly interesting, though I'm not sure that Foucault's basic idea is really that applicable. Does the system sound unwieldy, potentially self-serving, not designed for the specific needs of an individual (though how you could practically achieve that is another question) - yes. But from what I've heard of the US medical system, absolute power over the individual's bodily autonomy towards a certain end goal (of productivity or whatever) is not really applicable. There seems to be too much struggling against making the means of this potential instrument of control accessible for everyone for that to be the main purpose.

 

[Quere]

The article is certainly interesting, though I'm not sure that Foucault's basic idea is really that applicable. Does the system sound unwieldy, potentially self-serving, not designed for the specific needs of an individual (though how you could practically achieve that is another question) - yes. But from what I've heard of the US medical system, absolute power over the individual's bodily autonomy towards a certain end goal (of productivity or whatever) is not really applicable. There seems to be too much struggling against making the means of this potential instrument of control accessible for everyone for that to be the main purpose.

I don't really know anything about Focault or his theories.

I just found it really interesting, in my country a lot of the problems with methadone talked about in this article aren't really applicable.

So when I read about US mmt I find it very sad because it's almost like the programs there are less of a medical treatment and more of a way of reducing crime.

Like the patients quality of life doesn't seem to be the priority. It makes me really sad

 

[Trev26]

Hey guys, first of all I just wanted to say thank you all so much for keeping this thread going with all the information! I've been following it every day, and I really do appreciate it.

I stopped taking the subs when I first opened the thread because I thought the oxy would help my pain better, and my tolerance would've gone down after not taking any for almost a month which didn't really happen. Still got adequate pain control, however had to take my same dose which was 30mg at a time unfortunately. Well now I ran out of oxy and I went back on the subs, taking 2mg at a time a couple times a day. I'm probably going to be on the suboxone for awhile unless a miracle happens and I get a doctor to prescribe me something, which isn't going to happen. I can't afford to get any more oxy. I've literally spent around 50k in 2 years on oxy and now I'm broke and suffering from crippling depression, and anxiety. Every day I wake up, I think, FUCK another shit day, where is the God damn off button! I honestly don't know what to do guys.

As far as the buprenorphine goes, it works alright for pain in small doses, but I want to keep it strictly for pain management, and only take low doses to hopefully make it easy to come off of at some point. I don't plan on taking it for that long, especially because I was never addicted to opioids or experienced any withdrawals in the first place.

I can honestly say the only reason I haven't taken myself out yet is because I'm waiting for a personal injury case involving Lyft to settle. The money will be nice to reimburse everything I've spent over the last two years, but I'm just going to give it to my mom and brother. I'm just trying to hang in there because I can't stand these fucking insurance companies! They have so much money, and yet are trying to constantly screw people, so that is my main motivation right now for not ending it. Not to mention, all the medication I'm taking for my kidneys are not taking for some reason so dialysis is unfortunately a very realistic possibility by the end of this year or a kidney transplant, and I've already said I'm not doing dialysis. I always laugh at people who try to tell me all the cliches, like time will heal, or it'll get better soon, and I always tell them actually time has made shit progressively fucking worse so when exactly is it going to get better lol??

Even though I dont post on here that often I still read it almost daily so please feel free to keep this thread going. I pretty much dont know anything about buprenorphine and value everyone's advice on BL way more than these money hungry doctors who don't care about the well being of their patients.

Thanks as always for all the help, and btw painful one, I actually think about you a lot and everything you are going through as well, and hope you are doing ok. I wish I can post on here more frequently.

 

[Quere]

Hey guys, first of all I just wanted to say thank you all so much for keeping this thread going with all the information! I've been following it every day, and I really do appreciate it.

I stopped taking the subs when I first opened the thread because I thought the oxy would help my pain better, and my tolerance would've gone down after not taking any for almost a month which didn't really happen. Still got adequate pain control, however had to take my same dose which was 30mg at a time unfortunately. Well now I ran out of oxy and I went back on the subs, taking 2mg at a time a couple times a day. I'm probably going to be on the suboxone for awhile unless a miracle happens and I get a doctor to prescribe me something, which isn't going to happen. I can't afford to get any more oxy. I've literally spent around 50k in 2 years on oxy and now I'm broke and suffering from crippling depression, and anxiety. Every day I wake up, I think, FUCK another shit day, where is the God damn off button! I honestly don't know what to do guys.

As far as the buprenorphine goes, it works alright for pain in small doses, but I want to keep it strictly for pain management, and only take low doses to hopefully make it easy to come off of at some point. I don't plan on taking it for that long, especially because I was never addicted to opioids or experienced any withdrawals in the first place.

I can honestly say the only reason I haven't taken myself out yet is because I'm waiting for a personal injury case involving Lyft to settle. The money will be nice to reimburse everything I've spent over the last two years, but I'm just going to give it to my mom and brother. I'm just trying to hang in there because I can't stand these fucking insurance companies! They have so much money, and yet are trying to constantly screw people, so that is my main motivation right now for not ending it. Not to mention, all the medication I'm taking for my kidneys are not taking for some reason so dialysis is unfortunately a very realistic possibility by the end of this year or a kidney transplant, and I've already said I'm not doing dialysis. I always laugh at people who try to tell me all the cliches, like time will heal, or it'll get better soon, and I always tell them actually time has made shit progressively fucking worse so when exactly is it going to get better lol??

Even though I dont post on here that often I still read it almost daily so please feel free to keep this thread going. I pretty much dont know anything about buprenorphine and value everyone's advice on BL way more than these money hungry doctors who don't care about the well being of their patients.

Thanks as always for all the help, and btw painful one, I actually think about you a lot and everything you are going through as well, and hope you are doing ok. I wish I can post on here more frequently.

Yeah it's not surprising your tolerance for oxy didn't go down. Bupe is a powerful opioid in its own right.

Before it was used for addiction it was used as a painkiller known as temgesic (I think that was it's brand name) for severe pain in my country. Many of the old school junkies I've talked to remember it fondly. And in some countries (scandinavian countries I believe) it is a prolific drug of abuse rivaling heroin in numbers of users there.

I for one will certainly keep checking in on this thread and offer you whatever support and knowledge I can.

I'm very sorry to hear about the extremely tough time trying you've been having.

 

[DrewDogBaby209]

Yo, what's good Trev?

I just wanted to say hang in there brotha. I deal with very bad anxiety myself and it's definitely made my life worst. But I try to stay happy and for the most part I am. I've learned how to control my anxiety really well. I haven't had an anxiety attack in more then 5 years. I also struggle with horrible depression to. I tell people that I have PTSD, anxiety, and depression from all the crazy shit I've seen and all the crazy shit I've been through. I've been through some shit.

Before I started on methadone my life was FUCKED UP. Waking up daily trying to get well and constantly running around try to make shit happen. I remember when I started methadone I was so drained from trying to score 24/7 that i was sleeping 15 hrs a night. It was a huge relief to just kick back and enjoy life without having to run 24/7 to stay well ... My brain could now relax and it was an amazing feeling.

Anyway, I know it sounds stupid to say this but try and stay happy and positive... or at least try for your familia. They probably feel really bad that your struggling with such a tough situation and there's not a whole lot they can do to help you. They might feel helpless and scared.

Seriously though, if you ever need to talk... I'm fucking here brother. Besides your kidney issues and some of YOUR health problems... I've literally been to hell and back cuzin. The struggle is real.

"I'm lost and not knowin', scarred up but still flowin', energized and still goin'. "
-2pac