question regarding pregabalin and GABA

[3dmusic]

Hi

I read this passage, in italics below, from a here http://www.medicatione.com/?c=drug&s=pregabid

Pregabid is a new anticonvulsant drug indicated as an add on therapy for partial onset seizures and for certain types of neuropathic pain. It was designed as a more potent successor to a related drug, gabapentin. Pregabid binds to the alpha2-delta subunit of the voltage-gated calcium channel in the central nervous system. While Pregabid is a structural derivative of the inhibitory neurotransmitter gamma- aminobutyric acid (GABA), it does not bind directly to GABAA, GABAB, or benzodiazepine receptors, does not augment GABAA responses in cultured neurons, does not alter rat brain GABA concentration or have acute effects on GABA uptake or degradation. However, in cultured neurons prolonged application of Pregabid increases the density of GABA transporter protein and increases the rate of functional GABA transport. Pregabid does not block sodium channels, is not active at opiate receptors, and does not alter cyclooxygenase enzyme activity. It is inactive at serotonin and dopamine receptors and does not inhibit dopamine, serotonin, or noradrenaline reuptake.

I am not an expert on pharmecuticals, but the bit I bolded, concerns me, as I used to, a long time ago, have a benzo addiction. I take the odd benzo about once or twice a week, and I take 450mg pregabalin a day. I was wondering if somehow, because of my benzo history of addiction, and the fact that I take the odd benzo once or twice a week, would taking pregabalin, somehow cause me to have another GABA drug dependency?
Sorry for the way I have written this message, but I am no expert on pharms, but would be grateful for a some help, thanks

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I think that pregabalin increases GABA synthesis through modulation of Glutamate Decarboxylase but this isn't at all its main effect. I wouldn't expect horrible GABA dependence akin to benzos especially. I personally cold turkyed after taking 3 grams of gabapentin for about 6 months and my main problem was insomnia/anxiety, never any seizures however. Though it is an anti-epileptic and some people do get seizures from withdrawals, but it does NOT apparently help with alcoholic related seizures (more classically GABA related seizures). This is another piece of evidence that hints it really doesn't have too much GABA effects- if it doesn't help with alcoholic seizures (like a benzo would).

The main mechanism of pregabalin is indeed through the alpha 2 delta calcium channels, where it inhibits the formation of new excitatory synapses - it inhibits synaptogenesis. This could present problems for people recovering from neuronal damage (mentioned specifically in a study was stroke and traumatic brain injury if I remember correctly) so in my opinion its not a drug that you want to be on for decades. 450mg isn't too bad though, and I wouldn't at all put this drug (even though it is called GABApentin) in the same category are benzos. Goodluck, any questions are welcome.

 

[3dmusic]

I think that pregabalin increases GABA synthesis through modulation of Glutamate Decarboxylase but this isn't at all its main effect. I wouldn't expect horrible GABA dependence akin to benzos especially. I personally cold turkyed after taking 3 grams of gabapentin for about 6 months and my main problem was insomnia/anxiety, never any seizures however. Though it is an anti-epileptic and some people do get seizures from withdrawals, but it does NOT apparently help with alcoholic related seizures (more classically GABA related seizures). This is another piece of evidence that hints it really doesn't have too much GABA effects- if it doesn't help with alcoholic seizures (like a benzo would).

The main mechanism of pregabalin is indeed through the alpha 2 delta calcium channels, where it inhibits the formation of new excitatory synapses - it inhibits synaptogenesis. This could present problems for people recovering from neuronal damage (mentioned specifically in a study was stroke and traumatic brain injury if I remember correctly) so in my opinion its not a drug that you want to be on for decades. 450mg isn't too bad though, and I wouldn't at all put this drug (even though it is called GABApentin) in the same category are benzos. Goodluck, any questions are welcome.

Hi Cotcha

Many thanks for getting back to me, and sorry for the delay in replying. Thanks for explaining the mechanisms of pregabalin.

I do have a question.
I have been trying to stabilise on pregabalin, before tapering off.
Originally, I was on 375mg to start with and was sweating, had diarrhoea, and a bad headache as withdrawals from pregabalin.
I was only on this dose, about a week, and I started getting withdrawals like diarrhoea, headaches, nausea and bad sweats, even without decreasing the dose.
I upped my dose to 400mg a day to get rid of symptoms, so I could start my taper symptom free.
I was ok for a week, but the symptoms started coming back again, sweats, diarrhoea, and headaches, and so I upped it to 450mg, which is when I wrote the first post.
I was ok on 450mg pregabalin for about a week but then the withdrawals came back.
I have been drinking cider and taking benzos, but not every day.

my question is, has the benzos and alcohol made my pregabalin tolerance higher?
Is this why I am experiencing withdrawals?

I don't really want to up the dose of pregabalin anymore, but I don't know if the drinking and the benzos are somehow making my symptoms worse, and would love your help, as I want to stabilise, before I taper off pregabalin, but I don't know why the symptoms keep comoing back and would love your help, as the sweats are driving me mad, and I can't keep off the toilet, and the headaches are driving me mad.

My doctor is clueless and I am taking the pregabalins illicitly, proper prescription ones, but I don't know why the withdrawals are coming back, despite me upping my dose, from 375mg to 400mg and then to 450mg where I am now, thanks

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I think there might be some cross tolerance here, essentially you're taking a drug that works on GABA a bit and maybe you need a certain amount of GABA activation in order not to feel sick, but because your GABA tolerance is rising continuously (from benzos, alcohol, and Gabapentin) it's an ever changing target and you'll always have to keep upping your Gabapentin dose to not get sick. I think complete sobriety should obviously be a goal at some point but how exactly to do this is tricky, I would try to cut back on the benzos while staying at the current Gabapentin dose, even raising it by 50mg if you need to, then tapering off the Gabapentin. So essentially taper benzos first while raising the Gabapentin dose if necessary, then taper the Gabapentin after you're off the benzos. And I would taper somewhat quickly on the Gabapentin personally just to get it over with, as long as you avoid seizures which are definitely a possibility and would be a source of most of the long term damage (excitotoxicity).

You will have to deprive your brain of these substances in order for your brain to make these substances (GABA) on your own. I think you're having a problem with the increases GABA synthesis of Gabapentin combining with the GABA agonism of benzos and alcohol, it'll make for a shortage of GABA if tolerance is gained to either.

Have you considered something like Clonidine for withdrawals? I highly recommend it but I also recommend that you take melatonin (extended release) with it. I would ask your doc about Clonidine, could say it's for sleep because it is used to cut adrenaline for sleep. But definitely take melatonin with it. Best of luck, feel free to PM me anytime.

 

[3dmusic]

I think there might be some cross tolerance here, essentially you're taking a drug that works on GABA a bit and maybe you need a certain amount of GABA activation in order not to feel sick, but because your GABA tolerance is rising continuously (from benzos, alcohol, and Gabapentin) it's an ever changing target and you'll always have to keep upping your Gabapentin dose to not get sick. I think complete sobriety should obviously be a goal at some point but how exactly to do this is tricky, I would try to cut back on the benzos while staying at the current Gabapentin dose, even raising it by 50mg if you need to, then tapering off the Gabapentin. So essentially taper benzos first while raising the Gabapentin dose if necessary, then taper the Gabapentin after you're off the benzos. And I would taper somewhat quickly on the Gabapentin personally just to get it over with, as long as you avoid seizures which are definitely a possibility and would be a source of most of the long term damage (excitotoxicity).

You will have to deprive your brain of these substances in order for your brain to make these substances (GABA) on your own. I think you're having a problem with the increases GABA synthesis of Gabapentin combining with the GABA agonism of benzos and alcohol, it'll make for a shortage of GABA if tolerance is gained to either.

Have you considered something like Clonidine for withdrawals? I highly recommend it but I also recommend that you take melatonin (extended release) with it. I would ask your doc about Clonidine, could say it's for sleep because it is used to cut adrenaline for sleep. But definitely take melatonin with it. Best of luck, feel free to PM me anytime.

Hi cotcha

I sent you a pm, but I dunno if you got it, cos I cannot see it in my out box.

The last benzo I had was 2mg lorazepam today at 6pm and it is now just past midnight where i live.

I only have a pregab addiction, I don't currently have a benzo or z drug addiction, I just take them a few days a week and I stick to the short half life, like zopiclone, lorazepam and etizolam.
Thank God I dont have a benzo addiction, as they are terrible withdrawals, as I used to be hooked on valium, and the wds are horrible, but pregab wd feels worse.

I didn't realise pregabalin and benzos or other gabaA like Alcohol, were cross tolerant with pregabalin

I want to get off this pregabalin as it's doing my head in, so I have upped my dose to 525mg a day, and once I am stable, I am going to start a taper using water, so i can get awkward doses and small frequent cuts.

I've banned booze and benzos from now on, but as the lorazepam will still be in my system for a couple of days, I won't start the pregab taper, until a couple of days when I am happy all the loraz and gabaA are out my system.

I was wondering why my symptoms of pregab withdrawal were coming back only days after upping the dose, and now I know that it's the benzos, zolpidem and the booze.

I will look into clonidine. Im on beta blockers so I doubt my doctor would give me it, but I will find a way of getting it, as I need all the help I can to get to sleep, and am hoping the upping the pregab dose will help me sleep.

One more question, as I still have the last dose of lorazepam inside me, if I stop all benzos and gabaA and booze, now that I have upped my dose of pregabain to 525mg, as I still have the last dose of lorazepam inside me, will I still get sick on this new 525mg dose even if I drink no more booze or take no more benzies?

thanks I appreiate you help.

Edited to add, I took another 175mg pregabalin about midnight, an hour or so ago, to make up my dose to 525mg for this day. My lorazepam was wearing off and I was starting to burn up, and get a slight headache but I have cooled down again now, and my headache is going away.
I will have 175mg of pregab in the morning when I wake, using 100ml of pregabalin-water that I just made, and one 75mg capsule.
I'll repeat the dose eight hourly, and hopefully I will feel less depressed, anxious, headachey, and hot, and I wont hopefuly have the runs, like I have been getting.
my headache is going away, and I don't feel like I am burning up.

 

[jammin83]

3dmusic you should make sure that you taper off of that pretty slow. It's true that some people can taper off relatively quickly and easily, but some people can be especially sensitive to gaba, lyrica, withdrawals, and it sounds like you might be. You should be aware that certain sensitive individuals that taper too fast can be destabilized for years, so take it easy if it gets rough and don't try and push through it. After a certain amount of time, upping the dose or reinstating doesn't stop the withdrawals anymore. You should only make cuts every 3 or 4 weeks. It takes time, but if your sensitive it may not just clear up in a few weeks. A recommended guideline is about a 10% a cut. You can make smaller cuts more frequently, but don't rush it. I know it seems pretty slow and you may be able to do it faster, but it can take a week or two before you notice a cut. Try to keep your dosages as stable as possible and don't go up and down. Keep it slow and stable. It could take you a year or so, so be prepared for that. Obviously as you get lower its going to be more difficult so you may to go even slower than 10%. I would be on a super low dose before jumping off. Like a fraction of the lowest dose.

It's kind of unclear about what your doing with your dosages, sorry if im misreading. You should obviously find a dosage that your stable at before initiating a taper. I would wait at least a week from stopping booze and benzos before doing anything else.

I've been on gaba for about 4 years now and have to taper off of it really slow too. I get really fucked up withdrawals from it but am still not really stable from the last drug I stopped. It seems to be people that have had benzo dependencies sometimes are more sensitive to it. Just a correlation I've noticed. The only reason I say anything is because I really did some damage to myself from stopping a drug too quickly and I am still paying for it and its no fun over a year later.

I've been schooled up on tapering drugs so let me know if you need anything.

 

[3dmusic]

3dmusic you should make sure that you taper off of that pretty slow. It's true that some people can taper off relatively quickly and easily, but some people can be especially sensitive to gaba, lyrica, withdrawals, and it sounds like you might be. You should be aware that certain sensitive individuals that taper too fast can be destabilized for years, so take it easy if it gets rough and don't try and push through it. After a certain amount of time, upping the dose or reinstating doesn't stop the withdrawals anymore. You should only make cuts every 3 or 4 weeks. It takes time, but if your sensitive it may not just clear up in a few weeks. A recommended guideline is about a 10% a cut. You can make smaller cuts more frequently, but don't rush it. I know it seems pretty slow and you may be able to do it faster, but it can take a week or two before you notice a cut. Try to keep your dosages as stable as possible and don't go up and down. Keep it slow and stable. It could take you a year or so, so be prepared for that. Obviously as you get lower its going to be more difficult so you may to go even slower than 10%. I would be on a super low dose before jumping off. Like a fraction of the lowest dose.

It's kind of unclear about what your doing with your dosages, sorry if im misreading. You should obviously find a dosage that your stable at before initiating a taper. I would wait at least a week from stopping booze and benzos before doing anything else.

I've been on gaba for about 4 years now and have to taper off of it really slow too. I get really fucked up withdrawals from it but am still not really stable from the last drug I stopped. It seems to be people that have had benzo dependencies sometimes are more sensitive to it. Just a correlation I've noticed. The only reason I say anything is because I really did some damage to myself from stopping a drug too quickly and I am still paying for it and its no fun over a year later.

I've been schooled up on tapering drugs so let me know if you need anything.

Hi jammin83 and thanks for your message. Sorry this is a long message, but I value your input, as you have been on pregabalin longer than me, so you are bound to have more experience with it.
I'm really pleased that you and Cotcha have come onto my thread to offer your input.

I have some questions, if the lyrica half life is only 6.5 hours, how come it takes a week or two to notice a cut in dose?
Also, where abouts on here does it say that people can be destabilised for years if they cut too quick?
Do you really think it could take a year to taper off lyrica? I don't really want to be on it a year if I can help it, as I don't have supplies for a year.
You say that updosing does not help symptoms, why is this?
I have never gone up and down the doses, I went from 300mg to 400mg, to 450mg, and now on 525mg, and I did these updoses because symptoms kept reappearing after about a week, but I now know that this was due to the benzos and alcohol.

I have read part of the lyrica megathread, but I have ADHD and it's a really long thread, so my brain went after reading about five pages, which is good for me. Since then, I have read bits and bobs of that thread, and other threads on here.

I didn't realise that lyrica and benzos/gabaA such as booze were cross-tolerant until I read Cotcha's helpful message above.
I couldn't understand why I was suffering pregabalin withdrawals, even though I had not yet cut my dosage, but now I know that it is because I used to have a long valium habit, and this year, have been using short half-life benzos and z-drugs a few times a week.
I'm gutted that I cannot take lyrica and benzos/booze at the same time, but I have banned benzos and booze until I can get off the lyrica and recover.
It's going to be hard, as I have always had a problem with drink, except when I stopped for five years while on the valium, because I knew that booze would worsen withdrawal symptoms.
I wondered why I was getting so hot in bed, and even needing a fan on in November, which is odd, but now I know that booze and benzos increased my lyrica tolerance and caused withdrawals to get worse.

I didn't think lyrica had anything to do with gabaA receptors, until I started this thread, but I knew that it could make some people crave a drink, like it does with me.
I'm going to be really challenged, especially if I am around people who are drinking, but being ill and having more symptoms will put me off.

I've been on lyrica a year, and also been taking short half-life benzos and z-drugs about nine months, but the withdrawals from pregabalin have only shown up pretty recently.


I wont be telling my doctors about my habit. I am not prescribed pregabalin, evn though I asked for it, they gave me phenergan instead. Its a shame cos if they had given me it, I would just taper off, and not tell them, because my supply would be threatened like it was with valium, when I told my doctors I was addicted to it. They did prescribe me valium, but made me go through a drug worker to get a supply.
My doctors were useless when I was tapering valium, they didn't have a clue, and at the beginning of my taper, when I was most anxious, the doctor would not even reassure me that she would give me enough to taper off from and this uncertainty just exacerbated my anxiety.

When i tapered valium, I started, using the 10% steps, and I cut roughly every month, but I felt each cut painfully.
It took me ages, and I dreaded getting down to the lower doses, but when I got to 3.5mg, I discovered, a now defunct benzo withdrawal site called Benzo Detox Recovery, and they helped me get off the remainder of valium painlessly, by 'dissolving' it in milk, and doing a tiny daily cut.
If you compared the 10% stepped taper, and the daily micro taper on a graph, the daily micro taper would look like a smooth curve.

I am going to do the same with pregabalin, but I am not letting fear rule me like I did with valium, as I went way too slow, and I mistook menopausal symptoms for drug withdrawal, as I didn't know I was going through menopause at the time.
A lady on the benzobuddies forum actually suggested that I get tested for menopause, and I did, and got hrt, which made many symtoms go away, and I was able to concentrate on tapering the rest of the valium

As for lyrica, luckily it is water soluble, so i don't have to worry about refrigeration like I with valium and the milk.
As lyrica has a shorter half life, i am dosing three times a day, but I only dosed once a day on valium, as the half life is so long.
I might need to move to 4 times a day, as lyrica half life is only 6.3 hours.
I'm feeling better today, but I still have some mild lyrica withdrawals, and I think it might be, because I must still have some of that lorazepam in my system, what with taking 2mg and only taking it at 6pm yesterday.
I'm hoping that the lyrica withdrawal symptoms fade away as the benzo leaves my system, but I will be prepared to go upto 600mg, if I need to, to get stable, by stable, I don't mean symptom free, I just mean functional.

Among the withdrawal symptoms, I have been getting headaches, nausea, anxiety and depression, and diarrhoea.
I have been taking loperamide for the diarrhoea.
I took 4mg loperamide about 3am this morning, but puzzlingly, I was woken up at 7am, by a liquid bowel movement in bed, and if I hadn't of rolled on my side, I would have got shit on the sheets.
I had to go to the bathroom, and change my pyjamas, what a horrible way to wake up, and it was extra unexpected, given that I had taken loperamide at 3am.
Whilst in the shower, I had to quickly get out of the shower, to use the toilet again, for more liquid gravy poo.
I took 4mg more of loperamide, and went to bed, and my bowel was still rumbling, but once the loperamide kicked in, I was ok.
I am pleased, however, that my anxiety and depression was not bad this morning, because lately, I have been waking up with a churning stomach and bad anxiety, another horrible way to greet the day.

I have had some codeine today, I haven't had any since Tuesday, I don't do this every day, due to not wanting a codeine habit.
The liquid poo can't have been codeine withdrawals, as they would have come on tuesday night, or wednesday.
I must admit, I am a bit scared of waking up tomorrow, and shitting the bed, like I nearly did this morning, so I am going to lay a towel down on the sheets, for extra reassurance.

 

[jammin83]

When it comes to withdrawal from these types of drugs the half life is only part of the equation. It just takes time for your brain to adjust to a lower dosage. Withdrawal isn't always going to be linear. You can feel okay for a couple weeks or a month, then have a bad few weeks or months. It comes and goes. The half life thing kind of applies to opiates and benzos but not always with some of these other drugs, at least to the same extent. They have the ability to be in a league of their own in terms of withdrawal. There is a member here that was in gabapentin withdrawal for two years and had to get back on it. He's on it for life now according to him. You may be able to get away with a more aggressive taper, but some people can't do that. Trying to push through it to get off faster is where I made my mistake. You may be able to do it pretty quickly but you may not. It could take a few months, it could take longer, just want you to understand and respect the risks because they have the ability to be pretty life disrupting. People can't work for long periods of time sometimes and it can be hard to function at all.

Micro tapering like you describe is pretty solid method, just listen to your body. I wouldn't make too many cuts too fast though. If it gets uncomfortable, I would wait a week or so and stabilize before making another cut.

On various forums for psych drug withdrawal, lyrica/gabapentin are up there with some of the worst offenders for withdrawals. I don't have the links, but there are a bunch of members on the survivingantidepressants website that have had long term withdrawals from the stuff. The benzo/gabapentin correlation is just something I have noticed from browsing a lot of forums on people in withdrawal. Don't know if there really is a connection there or not so its not fact or anything. I do know that polydrugging for any sustained amount of time can sensitize somebodies nervous system and make them more sensitive to withdrawals.

You should also be able to get away with taking the stuff only once or maybe twice a day. I only take my gabapentin at night (900 mg staggered) and I do fine with that. I don't start noticing withdrawal until around 36 hours from my last dose. ymmv as always though. I was on 3200 mg a day for a while, but didn't have much trouble going down to 900 mg a day. If I try to drop from 900 to 600 though, that's way too much. There seems to be kind of a line where it gets much more difficult but that will be different for everybody.

The symptoms that I deal with now aren't really withdrawal anymore. I am finally off of APs but the symptoms I experience now resemble autonomic dysfunction which there isn't much you can do for really. I can't tolerate any psych drugs anymore and my nervous system is still pretty sensitive to all types of drugs. It seems people that have long term problems from psych drugs usually end up having these types of symptoms. Honestly, I'm not sure if it they will all go away entirely, so I hate to see that happen to anyone else.

I would consider taking a fish oil supplement and magnesium glycinate. These are supposed to be beneficial to people in various psych drug withdrawals but esp. lyrica withdrawal. Magnesium helped me a lot so I can vouch for that one. I would start them individually and separately at a low dose to see how you react first, some people can be sensitive. Albion makes a brand of magnesium glycinate that is supposed to be pretty reputable. Not too expensive if you buy the powder but the taste isn't very desirable but that doesn't bother me. I eat gross tasting drugs all the time, or I used to. Don't take magnesium the same time you take pregablin because it can effect absorption. Gaba/pregablin also can deplete magnesium levels and most people are usually deficient in it anyway so it's definitely worth a shot. Fish oil is better absorbed if you take vitamin E with it (400 IU from the natural source). Do your research on fish oil, there is a lot to know. The costco brand is actually supposed to be decent for a budget but I suspect you are in europe so not sure about availability there. I realize there is some controversy concerning fish oil, but it does appear to help a lot of people in withdrawal.

I was a heavy drinker for a while, so I also take methyl b12 (10 mg) a day because some of my symptoms align with a b12 deficiency, not sure if it will help you or not, but I am getting some benefit from it. You can do permanent damage to your nervous system if you are deficient in b12 for long enough. For some people b12 can be activating so be aware of that.

Melatonin is pretty good for sleep if you can tolerate it. I would start low though, some people take way too much. I would start with 1 mg or even less and work your way up. 5 or 10 mg tabs seem pretty excessive to me.

Microdosing with ibogaine has also been helping me but it was kind of a last resort. It's also helping me stay off of the booze and keeping me motivated to not drink. Amazing for depression in addition to the anti-addictive properties. You can't mix a lot of drugs with it though as you probably know. Seems to have no interaction with gabapentin for me.

Hope I answered most of your questions.

http://chriskresser.com/the-definitive-fish-oil-buyers-guide/

 

[3dmusic]

When it comes to withdrawal from these types of drugs the half life is only part of the equation. It just takes time for your brain to adjust to a lower dosage. Withdrawal isn't always going to be linear. You can feel okay for a couple weeks or a month, then have a bad few weeks or months. It comes and goes. The half life thing kind of applies to opiates and benzos but not always with some of these other drugs, at least to the same extent. They have the ability to be in a league of their own in terms of withdrawal. There is a member here that was in gabapentin withdrawal for two years and had to get back on it. He's on it for life now according to him. You may be able to get away with a more aggressive taper, but some people can't do that. Trying to push through it to get off faster is where I made my mistake. You may be able to do it pretty quickly but you may not. It could take a few months, it could take longer, just want you to understand and respect the risks because they have the ability to be pretty life disrupting. People can't work for long periods of time sometimes and it can be hard to function at all.

Micro tapering like you describe is pretty solid method, just listen to your body. I wouldn't make too many cuts too fast though. If it gets uncomfortable, I would wait a week or so and stabilize before making another cut.

On various forums for psych drug withdrawal, lyrica/gabapentin are up there with some of the worst offenders for withdrawals. I don't have the links, but there are a bunch of members on the survivingantidepressants website that have had long term withdrawals from the stuff. The benzo/gabapentin correlation is just something I have noticed from browsing a lot of forums on people in withdrawal. Don't know if there really is a connection there or not so its not fact or anything. I do know that polydrugging for any sustained amount of time can sensitize somebodies nervous system and make them more sensitive to withdrawals.

You should also be able to get away with taking the stuff only once or maybe twice a day. I only take my gabapentin at night (900 mg staggered) and I do fine with that. I don't start noticing withdrawal until around 36 hours from my last dose. ymmv as always though. I was on 3200 mg a day for a while, but didn't have much trouble going down to 900 mg a day. If I try to drop from 900 to 600 though, that's way too much. There seems to be kind of a line where it gets much more difficult but that will be different for everybody.

The symptoms that I deal with now aren't really withdrawal anymore. I am finally off of APs but the symptoms I experience now resemble autonomic dysfunction which there isn't much you can do for really. I can't tolerate any psych drugs anymore and my nervous system is still pretty sensitive to all types of drugs. It seems people that have long term problems from psych drugs usually end up having these types of symptoms. Honestly, I'm not sure if it they will all go away entirely, so I hate to see that happen to anyone else.

I would consider taking a fish oil supplement and magnesium glycinate. These are supposed to be beneficial to people in various psych drug withdrawals but esp. lyrica withdrawal. Magnesium helped me a lot so I can vouch for that one. I would start them individually and separately at a low dose to see how you react first, some people can be sensitive. Albion makes a brand of magnesium glycinate that is supposed to be pretty reputable. Not too expensive if you buy the powder but the taste isn't very desirable but that doesn't bother me. I eat gross tasting drugs all the time, or I used to. Don't take magnesium the same time you take pregablin because it can effect absorption. Gaba/pregablin also can deplete magnesium levels and most people are usually deficient in it anyway so it's definitely worth a shot. Fish oil is better absorbed if you take vitamin E with it (400 IU from the natural source). Do your research on fish oil, there is a lot to know. The costco brand is actually supposed to be decent for a budget but I suspect you are in europe so not sure about availability there. I realize there is some controversy concerning fish oil, but it does appear to help a lot of people in withdrawal.

I was a heavy drinker for a while, so I also take methyl b12 (10 mg) a day because some of my symptoms align with a b12 deficiency, not sure if it will help you or not, but I am getting some benefit from it. You can do permanent damage to your nervous system if you are deficient in b12 for long enough. For some people b12 can be activating so be aware of that.

Melatonin is pretty good for sleep if you can tolerate it. I would start low though, some people take way too much. I would start with 1 mg or even less and work your way up. 5 or 10 mg tabs seem pretty excessive to me.

Microdosing with ibogaine has also been helping me but it was kind of a last resort. It's also helping me stay off of the booze and keeping me motivated to not drink. Amazing for depression in addition to the anti-addictive properties. You can't mix a lot of drugs with it though as you probably know. Seems to have no interaction with gabapentin for me.

Hope I answered most of your questions.

http://chriskresser.com/the-definitive-fish-oil-buyers-guide/

Hi Jammin

Thank you again, for your timely reply. I need all the help I can get.

Sorry to hear you had a hard time getting off lyrica.

I kinda know what you mean about drugs other than benzos and opiates, when it comes to half life, and your brain, because I had to do a taper off seroquel and a taper off trazodone, and I went too quick with those tapers, and, to say the least, I didn't feel too special after rushing them.
I got lazy with the tapers. At first I was very disciplined, putting them in water so that I could take my cuts out with a syringe, but then I got fed up of doing this every day, and ended up just halving or quartering the pills.
Apparently, prisoners in the US snort seroquel to get high, I thought it was a horrible drug.

I went to the shop today, which is just five minutes away. I had a brisk-ish walk, but I was sweating like anything when I got there. My headaches have gone, though, which is good.
I have taken a dose of pregabalin about an hour ago, and I have just got all hot again, so I opened the window, in November.
I'm still sat here with the window open at 11:30pm at night, and it isn't that warm outside. I only have a thin long sleeved T shirt type top on as well. For me, pregabalin takes two hours for the effects to be felt though, so I should be feeling a little bit better in about half an hour as I had my dose about 10pm

I know what you mean about the non linearity of tapering as well, because I felt like that when I started my old benzo taper. Symptoms seemed to come at random, but I did get off lightly, considering the suffering of others I have read about online doing benzo tapers.

I feel sorry for the guy who had to go on gabapentin permanently, and gabapentin is supposed to be pregabalin's not so good fore-runner.
I'm not fully functional so I may up the dose to 600mg, but not yet, as I still think I have a bit of yesterday's lorazepam in my system, probably about 0.5mg given lorazepam's half life, equivalent to 5mg of valium. I am a bit concerned that if I up the dose right now, that remaining bit of benzo in my system, may just make me tolerant to the higher pregabalin dose.

I will listen to my body with this taper, and if symptoms start, I will decrease the cut size and hold. I won't be hurrying it, because I don't want to make things worse like I did with trazodone and seroquel. I thought benzos were the worst to taper from, and my benzo taper was more difficult than traz and seroquel, but those two drugs still needed more time for tapering than I gave them.
Maybe the benzo taper was still affecting me, and I did not know it.

Ah, yes, I know someone on survivingantidepressants.com who took a long time to taper lyrica, because of lingering stubborn symptoms.
My body is proof enough to me that benzos/z-drugs and alcohol can affect a pregabalin taper, as it was weird how the withdrawals got worse after drinking and taking gabaA, even though I was nudging the dose up from 300mg a day to 450mg, before I decided to give gabaA/alcohol a break while I tapered pregabaliln.

I find that if I take the whole dose of pregabalin in one go, I still get symptoms after a few hours, and splitting the dose into 3 seems to be helping, I may even decide to spread it out to four doses a day yet, I am not sure.
Withdrawals from pregabalin show themselves only after a few hours for me, but, maybe, if I were to not take them for a few days, the symptoms may suddenly ratchet up a good few notches at once, only, I haven't dared to do that, in case I make things worse for myself and cannot put them right.

I also know what you mean about symptoms getting worse, the lower you go, when I was doing the 5%-10% valium cuts, I felt the cuts more, when I got to about 6.5mg of valium.
I remember worrying that my water tank would spring a leak and flood the flat below mine, as my water tank was ancient.

I do hope that you finally get 100% right, and I can see what you mean about sensitising the system. That is another reason why I won't stop taking pregabalin for a few days, in case more severe withdrawals set in and are harder to shift.

I looked at magnesium glycinate, funnily enough, but it is too expensive, so I have got magnesium maleate.
Thank you for reminding me of this. It is a great muscle relaxer, which is what I need in bed, as I find it hard to relax my muscles, particularly my facial and tongue muscles, oddly enough.

Thanks for the tip about not taking magnesium at the same time as pregabalin, I will take it just before I go to sleep tonight. I think I have fish oil also, I have a big box of supplements. I do have vitamin E.
I only have the cheap fish oil, as my budget is poor, so I can't afford the more effective but expensive oils.

You are right, I am in Europe, in the the Not-so-Great-Britain lol.

Maybe as I was quite a good drinker, my body is still recovering from that. I never rattled off alcohol, but I had psychological dependence and still do, it's gonna be hard when out with friends who may be drinking.

I will have a look at melatonin. It is interesting that you are microdosing with ibogaine, there was a video on youtube about someone microdosing with this stuff and he got goood results off it, psychologically feeling better.

Thank you for answering my questions, I really appreciate that.

 

[3dmusic]

Here's a quick update.

I am still getting symptoms despite updosing pregab two days ago.

I have not had a drink or a benzo since thursday.

Luckily, I was not caught short with diarrhoea this morning, although my bowel is still upset as the stool was loose.

I tried to have the fan off last night, but I could only have it off for a few hours after my pregab dose, and had to put it back on again, as I was too hot in bed.

I still feel hot now. I have the heating on to dry some washing, but the windows are open, while the washing dries, to stop condensation, and it's cold outside. I can feel the cold wind, so it's a bit too cold and a bit too hot at the same time.

I think I must still have some of thursday's 2mg dose of lorazepam inside my system, and maybe this remaining benzo has made my tolerance to the new higher dose raise quicker. I expected tolerance, as pregab tolerance raises really quickly, but not to still have withdrawal symptoms like overheating.

The anxiety and depression worry me more than anything, as am not very strong when it comes to negative emotions and fears.
I have had some codeine which has helped lift my mood a little bit, but I can't have any tomorrow.
I might raise my dose tomorrow of pregab, as all of the benzo will be out of my system tomorrow, but I am not sure yet.
I might divide my dose into four instead of three and see if that helps, but when I did this with previous tapers, I slept through my alarm and forgot doses.

 

[mocharain]

There is definitely cross tolerance between pregabalin and ethanol/benzodiazepines. Are you currently being treated for depression?

 

[3dmusic]

I'm back for an update.
I had read reports that magnesium helps the symptoms, but was sceptical, desperate enough though, I tried it.
I already had some magnesium malate, and I was taking it on a night to help me get over to sleep.
I started taking more through the day, and it did help. It made the difference between a bad mood and a bearable one.

It took away my headaches, in fact, all of the symptoms, except for the diarrhoea. I guess that was due to oral route of delivery as diarrhoea is magnesium's way of clearing itself from the body.
I'm beginning to wonder if the symptoms I am getting are just side effects, which kicked in for me, when the doseage started going upto 300mg+, and not withdrawals.
If so, this is good news, because, if I get used to a mag dosing regime and it continues to work like this for me, I will be able to taper off smoothly, hopefully.

I read the post on here that describes how the company that made neurontin, a less potent version of this drug, hid the fact that there were suicidal depressive side effects in some people. There is a very shady past attached to neurontin.
Heres the court case for anyone interested http://www.counterpunch.org/2007/02/23/the-neurontin-suicides/

I really hope that magnesium continues to help me in this way, as I was very sceptical of it working for me. In the past, it helped me stop having hot flushes from perimenopause, but only for about a fortnight, however, at the time, I was only using oral administration, and I think it appears that for magnesium to do it's stuff, you need topical application as well as oral.
The only drawback was that I was getting worse diarrhoea, and had five visits to the loo yesterday. I also waited before I took my loperamide and the 2mg dose didn't seem to work.
I have had dihydrocodeine today, so this addresses any bowel issues, but by about 48hrs, my bowel will be back upto it's normal (too high) speed, and my motions will be liquidy, unless I have figured out a way to dose magnesium enough to ward off symptoms, without sending me to the lavatory, urgently, four and five times a day.

I now have a magnesium oil-spray, which I have been using. It is early days, and it itches, but apparently that is normal.
I also have a 5L size container of cheap epsom salts on the way, so I will take a few epsom salt baths.

I am a bit worried that the magnesium will act as a detox, which would normally be good, but not when you are tapering, as it would clear the drug out of the system and throw you into withdrawal.
From what I have read, withdrawals are the same as side effects when it comes to the symptoms.

I thought booze and benzos were raising my tolerance, and this prooduced symptoms, as my body asked for more of the drug, but an experiment with these (naughty little treats) proved otherwise.

 

[3dmusic]

Well. I thought I would post a quick update. Been doing a taper.
I thought I would post this for the benefit of any future surfers or current members who want to wean off pregabalin and minimize symptoms.
I split my 600mg dose into four, and take it 6 hourly. I am taking 4mg a day off, that is 1mg of each 6hrly dose.
I am emptying the capsule and adding it to a measured amount of water, same amount each day, and taking an extra 4mg off each day.
It has helped me enormouously to split my dose into four, cutting evenly, so the taper takes on a smoooth curve.
The excess sweating has gone mainly, although if I forget a dose or mess up somehow, the sweating plus symptoms come back.
The headaches have gone.
I do take the odd benzo here and there, and have the odd drink, but I find magnesium really does take the edge off the anxiety.
I always feel more anxious during the morning and afternoon and better in the evening.
I still have diarhhoea, but not as bad, still bad enough to need immodium or buscopan, but that could be the magnesium.
I don't take loads of magnesium, I take different amounts on different days.
I hope the taper continues in the way it is going, I will carry on, but if I get breakthrough symptoms, I will lower the size of the cuts.
I am noticing that the depression and anxiety is still here, and I am going in my regular pattern of taking a situation and imagnining the worst outcome, and providing 'evidence' that this outcome will happen, when it doesn't.
Always thinking and being convinced of the worst.
It's the crippling anxiety that does it for me and the depression, I think of all the bad things and find it really hard not to.

 

[aced126]

The main mechanism of pregabalin is indeed through the alpha 2 delta calcium channels, where it inhibits the formation of new excitatory synapses - it inhibits synaptogenesis.

Do you think this could present a major problem for pregnant women taking this drug? Concentrations could build up in the baby inhibiting exuberant synaptogenesis?

 

[3dmusic]

Do you think this could present a major problem for pregnant women taking this drug? Concentrations could build up in the baby inhibiting exuberant synaptogenesis?

I'm sorry I don't know, but if you take your question over to the advanced drug discussion section, the knowledgeable peeps there might be able to help you as there is some serious pharmacological etc knowledge there.

While I am here, I am updating. I have a parallel addiction to zopiclone, which I only discovered this last few weeks.
I got IBS and sweats back and blamed pregabalin, when in reality it was zoppy, so, I have worked out how much zoppy I need a day to stop withdrawals, and have divided that dose into 4, as zoppy only has a six hour half life.
I am slowly crossing over to diazepam, as diazepam is much easier to taper off than zoppy.
I blamed the pregabalin for my symptoms as they resembled them, barring the headaches, as they were not there.
While I cross over to diazepam, I am holding my pregab at 330mg a day, as I feel ok on that dose, and I will resume the taper in the same way, once I get stable on the diaz, as the way I am tapering pregab seems to be really successful.
I will be tapering the valium in a daily cut using milk to liquify it and a syringe to take out the cuts.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Do you think this could present a major problem for pregnant women taking this drug? Concentrations could build up in the baby inhibiting exuberant synaptogenesis?

I think that's what one study was suggesting (also that Gabapentin should be avoided with people undergoing neuronal recovery like from a stroke or traumatic brain injury), but from what I understand all anti epileptic drugs have pretty severe effects on the fetus, especially valproate.

3D, goodluck on your taper miss I hope you get some relief soon.

 

[jammin83]

Cotcha,

Funny you mention that about brain injury. I have a pretty serious dependency on gaba...not an addiction...but I am worried that it is preventing me from healing fully from APs. The flip side is that my well being depends on gaba bc I tried to reduce and wasn't possible without flaring all my symptoms up from zyprexa. Was on APs for about 5 years and been on gaba about 5 now too.

Do you think that it's possible that this stuff is messing with my AP recovery? Its been 18 months...still fucked up. Just curious to hear your perspective.

Not trying to Jack your thread 3d...

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I don't think that Gabapentin is impairing your recovery too much, Gabapentin has a very small effect on normal synapse generation - but I wouldn't be surprised if you are addicted to it. Get plenty of exercise and sleep, and if you feel like Gabapentin is dumbing you down then consider tapering it off. 5 years of Zyprexa is a lot.

 

[3dmusic]

Success story - completed pregabaliln taper, sorry to bump, wanted to update

Hi

I am just updating this thread to say that I completed my pregabalin daily titration taper.
I was dosing erratically and to stop withdrawals, I had to titrate upto an amount i felt I could begin a taper from.
I started tapering at 600mg, with 5mg daily drops, and decreased the size of the drops as I went down.
I ended up on 0.8mg a day drops, but I didnt do myself any favours by changing from four doses a day to three.
I did this because I got a benzo addiction of 75mg valium and took this three times a day, so, to make things easier, I took both meds together.
I am now down from 75mg valium to 54mg and the anxiety plus depression from the pregabalin taper is terrible.
I got out of the physical withdrawals using the daily titration method which was good, but the mental ones are torture.
I find something to get anxious about, and I find evidence to prove that whatever I am anxious about is real, and not just in my head.

 

[Solipsis]

Pregabalin withdrawal is rumored to be a little worse for previous GABAergic addicts including of benzos... Anecdotal evidence isn't worth much but I have been dependent on benzos and have been on pregabalin a while and have been off it for a while also. The withdrawals weren't easy to handle but somehow not difficult to "tolerate". I felt nothing like the hell of benzos but I did feel quite seriously depressed and anhedonic and did not connect this to tapering pregabalin which seems very weird. It did require some guidance. I have since decided to go on them again. I know it will not be pretty to off them but to compare... I would NEVER go on a daily benzo regimen like that anymore!!

I'd say you only open yourself up to a bit more sensitivity, but not necessarily something terrible.