Thank you Rortrhon, I concur. Incunabula, I am aware of science as a method. In fact, I never said "science is just another worldview". When I was speaking about scientists coming together under a shared worldview, I mean they share the view that science is valuable and worth their time just as when people gather together to listen to a Zen talk, they share the view that Zen Buddhism is worth their tine. I never made any definitive statements about what science is or isn't.
Ok so beautiful, the fact that I can find Christian thinkers who agree with me proves my point. When I am speaking about religion, I am speaking about the whole of it, not just whatever definition you wish to confine it to. So my point was that these ideas do exist in religion and can be easily by discovered by students of religion and hence there is great value (for some people) in studying religion. I would also point that in that in all the years I have spent around Christians and studying Christianity I haven't once met a single Christian who claimed to know the mind of God.
Are we talking about religion or your narrow interpretation of Christianity now? I explained already, there is the outward aspect of religion, that is the banner under a group of people come together and then there is the inner, mystical aspect of religion, which is what is t5ypically referred to as the "inner life" by most theologians. From the perspective of the inner life, Christianity is seen as a guide for how to maintain one's spiritual health. In that sense, it has about as much to do with dogmatic beliefs as a book about how to maintain one's physical health has to do with beliefs. Yes there are tenets and principles, just as a physical doctor might be speak of tenets and prrinciples of good health but their purpose is to accomplish the goal of good health, not simply to believe in because the book says you should.
Beliefs don't mean anything in an of themselves. Ok so you believe the new testament is scripture, that Jesus is the son of God and that he died for our sins. Ok, so what? Is that you think religion is about? Intellectual ascent to those statements? I guess I shouldn't be surprised, as many people do seem to think that's what its about but do you have any idea what that actually means? What does it mean that Jesus is the son of God? What does it mean that Jesus died for our sins?
When I was a child, I was told these things but I remained unconvinced. Why? not because I could argue that Jesus didn't fit the Jewish descriptions of the Messiah or that the evidence that he died on the cross for my sins was lacking. No, I disbelieved because I had no clue what any of that meant. You see the same thing in Christianity, with different denominations arguing over the interpretations of the Bible, they might all agree that Jesus "died for their sins" but there are many different understandings about what the heck that even means. Ultimately, trying to understand spiritual and metaphysical truth through words is a dead end. It can be hinted at but never fully captured.
And remember we are talking about religion, not Christianity alone. To illustrate my point I would like to use the example of the native american religions. Native americans use stories (myths) in order to illustrate principles about how life operates often using metaphors from the natural world. When properly understood the myths confer wisdom on the listener.
Of course, Christianity does the exact same thing, as the Bible is filled with natural metaphors and Jesus spoke in "parables". But I like to use the example of native american traditions because it shows you how this is a crosss cultural phenomenon and has absolutely nothing to do with specific dogmatic systems. And its also true historically powerful people have corrupted Christianity in order to keep the populace ignorant of the true meaning behind its metaphors and this was done for political control. But thats way off topic, so back to native americans. As I was saying they tell stories to illustrate points which teach life wisdom.
We actually share wisdom not only in religious metaphor but also in just plain every day speak all the time (the technique is so obviously useful that you will even hear the most staunch atheists use it). For example, here are some common american sayings that have nothing to do with religion:
A person who gets all wrapped up in himself makes a mighty small package.
A small leak will sink a great ship.
A living dog is better than a dead lion.
A pebble and a diamond are alike to a blind man.
So religion serves this same function, only rather than being geared toward a specific situation it is aimed at helping man learn how to live in harmony with the rest of existence. In that sense, it can be even be considered a science of sorts and of course there are the spiritual sciences, like kabbalah, shamanism, alchemy, etc which aim to make precise use of metaphysical principles in order to bring the body and soul into the desired state. That is why, I also say religion, like science, is a method.
hmm, well, I don't really recall claiming to be enlightened, nor do I really see how my attitude is any more arrogant than your own. I am simply sharing my experience of how religion can be a valuable tool for growing wiser, finding inner balance, peace and healing. If sharing that makes me holier than thou and arrogant, I apologize. I never claimed to be perfect.
Ok so beautiful, the fact that I can find Christian thinkers who agree with me proves my point. When I am speaking about religion, I am speaking about the whole of it, not just whatever definition you wish to confine it to. So my point was that these ideas do exist in religion and can be easily by discovered by students of religion and hence there is great value (for some people) in studying religion. I would also point that in that in all the years I have spent around Christians and studying Christianity I haven't once met a single Christian who claimed to know the mind of God.
Are we talking about religion or your narrow interpretation of Christianity now? I explained already, there is the outward aspect of religion, that is the banner under a group of people come together and then there is the inner, mystical aspect of religion, which is what is t5ypically referred to as the "inner life" by most theologians. From the perspective of the inner life, Christianity is seen as a guide for how to maintain one's spiritual health. In that sense, it has about as much to do with dogmatic beliefs as a book about how to maintain one's physical health has to do with beliefs. Yes there are tenets and principles, just as a physical doctor might be speak of tenets and prrinciples of good health but their purpose is to accomplish the goal of good health, not simply to believe in because the book says you should.
Beliefs don't mean anything in an of themselves. Ok so you believe the new testament is scripture, that Jesus is the son of God and that he died for our sins. Ok, so what? Is that you think religion is about? Intellectual ascent to those statements? I guess I shouldn't be surprised, as many people do seem to think that's what its about but do you have any idea what that actually means? What does it mean that Jesus is the son of God? What does it mean that Jesus died for our sins?
When I was a child, I was told these things but I remained unconvinced. Why? not because I could argue that Jesus didn't fit the Jewish descriptions of the Messiah or that the evidence that he died on the cross for my sins was lacking. No, I disbelieved because I had no clue what any of that meant. You see the same thing in Christianity, with different denominations arguing over the interpretations of the Bible, they might all agree that Jesus "died for their sins" but there are many different understandings about what the heck that even means. Ultimately, trying to understand spiritual and metaphysical truth through words is a dead end. It can be hinted at but never fully captured.
And remember we are talking about religion, not Christianity alone. To illustrate my point I would like to use the example of the native american religions. Native americans use stories (myths) in order to illustrate principles about how life operates often using metaphors from the natural world. When properly understood the myths confer wisdom on the listener.
Of course, Christianity does the exact same thing, as the Bible is filled with natural metaphors and Jesus spoke in "parables". But I like to use the example of native american traditions because it shows you how this is a crosss cultural phenomenon and has absolutely nothing to do with specific dogmatic systems. And its also true historically powerful people have corrupted Christianity in order to keep the populace ignorant of the true meaning behind its metaphors and this was done for political control. But thats way off topic, so back to native americans. As I was saying they tell stories to illustrate points which teach life wisdom.
We actually share wisdom not only in religious metaphor but also in just plain every day speak all the time (the technique is so obviously useful that you will even hear the most staunch atheists use it). For example, here are some common american sayings that have nothing to do with religion:
A person who gets all wrapped up in himself makes a mighty small package.
A small leak will sink a great ship.
A living dog is better than a dead lion.
A pebble and a diamond are alike to a blind man.
So religion serves this same function, only rather than being geared toward a specific situation it is aimed at helping man learn how to live in harmony with the rest of existence. In that sense, it can be even be considered a science of sorts and of course there are the spiritual sciences, like kabbalah, shamanism, alchemy, etc which aim to make precise use of metaphysical principles in order to bring the body and soul into the desired state. That is why, I also say religion, like science, is a method.
hmm, well, I don't really recall claiming to be enlightened, nor do I really see how my attitude is any more arrogant than your own. I am simply sharing my experience of how religion can be a valuable tool for growing wiser, finding inner balance, peace and healing. If sharing that makes me holier than thou and arrogant, I apologize. I never claimed to be perfect.
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I mean, how could I disagree.
