Opioids Question about using buprenorphine while on low dose of H

[darkcloud13]

Hello. I've been using H daily for about 3 months now. I normally use about 70-100mg #3, mostly insufflated or sometimes smoked. I've decided that it's time to quit so I have started tapering H and I have started using Kratom as well.
I'm still in the process of taper and I have tapered down to about 5 small lines a day (about 40mg) but I still need them to function daily. Without taking anything I don't experience normal withdrawal symptoms that I've read here about like nausea, restlessness, inability to sleep instead I'm extremely exhausted, not being able to get out of bed, runny nose/eyes, muscle aches, depression, sweating. It's still pretty bad so I would really like to take bupe to ease the withdrawal symptoms.

I had purchased buprenorphine 8mg and I was planning to take them but after reading here that you need to wait 48-72 hours because of precipitated withdrawal I didn't want to risk it.

My question is

Can I really not take buprenorphine considering I'm on such low dose of H? People say to wait more than 24 hours but my pupils are already dilated a few hours after taking H. After 24 hours I can definitely feel withdrawal (I have all the symptoms) and waiting even longer the withdrawal would just end at all.
Also if I wold take one line of H#3 (insufflated), then wait about 20 hours would it be ok to take bupe or not (considering my low dosage)?

I've heard mixed reviews about mixing Kratom with bupe so has anyone had experience with this?

I really don't want to experience precipitated withdrawal so I rather be cautious but it seems a waste waiting 48 hours..
Anyways thank you for reading.

 

[Keif' Richards]

Hey Dark Cloud! Welcome to Bluelight!

You're on the right track. In my experience, you are much better off using your symptoms as a guiding principle as opposed to the timetables put out by the pharma community.

You're usage of Heroin would be considered pretty light. It isn't nothing, but you should be able to induct with the Buprenorphine in just a few hours.

I would forget the timetable. Wait until you are truly sick and then take the Bupe. I bet you could get away with dosing before 24 hours, but I would wait till 36.

Begin by dosing a very small crumb of the Buprenorphine tablet under your tongue. Wait 15 minutes. Are you feeling relief or feeling a rising sickness?

If you begin feeling sick, you will have to wait several more hours. If you feel relief, continue dosing small crumbs of the tablet every few minutes under your tongue, eventually arriving at a dose no higher than 2mg.

You should definitely be fine with 2mg. Let us know how everything works out. Keaton's active constituents like Mitragynine operate primarily as an Opioid Receptor Agonist so I dont know exactly how this would combine with a mixed agonist/antagonist like Buprenorphine.

If you could keep your Bupe dose to low levels like say .4mg-.2mg at a time, I wouldn't be surprised if you found some beneficial synergy between the two, but that is totally theoretical.

I would advise using a syringe to construct a volumetric dosing apparatus for the administration of Buprenorphine sublingually.

Make a solution of 20ml water to each 8mg tablet. This will leave you with .2mg in each .5ml. Appy .5ml of said solution under the tongue ever 15-30 minutes until feeling well.

Questions?

 

[Keif' Richards]

Also, here is a good article about the pharmacokinetics of Buprenorphine. Do not be ashamed if it is confusing as fuck. It has taken me years to figure some of this stuff out so I'm happy to translate what I know if needed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pmc
Web results
Buprenorphine: A Unique Drug with Complex Pharmacology - NCBI

 

[tarman]

Yeah, bupe has a stronger binding affinity, but only partial agonist. So the precip withdrawals happen because it kicks off the H from the receptor, but doesn't activate the receptor as much as the H does. My local clinic makes you wait 24 hours.

As for the kratom, I was doing a dose similar to yours and just used the kratom to jump off. I was doing about .10 or .15 a day, so if my math is right, 100 to 150mg a day. I'd say use like 4g of kratom and see how ya feel (again, when it's starting to get unpleasant). If you just go the kratom route, you might need like 4g every few hours. Don't worry about that. The important thing is to start dropping down, either lowering dose or frequency. By day 5 you should be down to 15g or less (total, per day- in my case, i liked doing 5 three g doses per day). Then I lowered, and i steadied out at 8 g a day, divided into four 2g doses. Did that for a week and a half then jumped two days ago. I don't feel that bad today. Admittedly, I ate .75mg xanax last night, cumulatively throughout the night so I could sleep. But it was kind of nice- I'd sleep for like 2 or 3 hours, but it felt like i had slept 10. Didn't have restless leg or anything, and I get that shit somethin fierce from regular opiate withdrawal. But everyone's different. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. The bupe is probably better for a nice smooth ride down the taper chart. But don't count kratom out. I never really liked mixing or alternating kratom and h. It was one or the other, Never both at the same time. Tried that once and had a freakout. Never again.

I like the kratom because it hits the receptors in a different way. I jumped off H 3 weeks ago and then jumped off kratom friday night. Yesterday wasn't the most pleasant, but it was a cakewalk compared to real opiate withdrawal. The downside of either kratom or subs is that they both are habit-forming. I don't care what all the kratom fanboys say (and I'm a kratom fan myself). So, just an alternative option there.

 

[darkcloud13]

Hey Dark Cloud! Welcome to Bluelight!

You're on the right track. In my experience, you are much better off using your symptoms as a guiding principle as opposed to the timetables put out by the pharma community.

You're usage of Heroin would be considered pretty light. It isn't nothing, but you should be able to induct with the Buprenorphine in just a few hours.

I would forget the timetable. Wait until you are truly sick and then take the Bupe. I bet you could get away with dosing before 24 hours, but I would wait till 36.

Begin by dosing a very small crumb of the Buprenorphine tablet under your tongue. Wait 15 minutes. Are you feeling relief or feeling a rising sickness?

If you begin feeling sick, you will have to wait several more hours. If you feel relief, continue dosing small crumbs of the tablet every few minutes under your tongue, eventually arriving at a dose no higher than 2mg.

You should definitely be fine with 2mg. Let us know how everything works out. Keaton's active constituents like Mitragynine operate primarily as an Opioid Receptor Agonist so I dont know exactly how this would combine with a mixed agonist/antagonist like Buprenorphine.

If you could keep your Bupe dose to low levels like say .4mg-.2mg at a time, I wouldn't be surprised if you found some beneficial synergy between the two, but that is totally theoretical.

I would advise using a syringe to construct a volumetric dosing apparatus for the administration of Buprenorphine sublingually.

Make a solution of 20ml water to each 8mg tablet. This will leave you with .2mg in each .5ml. Appy .5ml of said solution under the tongue ever 15-30 minutes until feeling well.

Thanks for the tip, I will try this measuring method in the future. Maybe I could do 8g = 80 ml = 1ml = 0,1g.

Questions?

Yes, I was comparing my symptoms to COWS opiate scale of how bad you are suppose to be before taking buprenorphine and I apparently I was in ''moderate withdrawal'' after just 20 hours. Anymore than that and I'm just in full blown withdrawal rather than moderate like you're suppose to be. So that leaves me wondering what's the point. Weirdly for me I sleep a lot when I'm experiencing withdrawal instead of not being able to sleep.

Is there any specific reason why you need to hold it under tongue instead of just swallowing orally straight away?

Anyways, if I had precipitated withdrawal, would it be less intense if I say took only 0.5mg bupe? From what I've heard it's really horrible so I rather just not take it if there is such a huge risk. I was planning to take about 1mg. And then redose later. Not sure what people normally dose here, I've heard some do 8mg at once so maybe that's why pre-withdrawal was so intense for them?

 

[darkcloud13]

Yeah, bupe has a stronger binding affinity, but only partial agonist. So the precip withdrawals happen because it kicks off the H from the receptor, but doesn't activate the receptor as much as the H does. My local clinic makes you wait 24 hours.

As for the kratom, I was doing a dose similar to yours and just used the kratom to jump off. I was doing about .10 or .15 a day, so if my math is right, 100 to 150mg a day. I'd say use like 4g of kratom and see how ya feel (again, when it's starting to get unpleasant). If you just go the kratom route, you might need like 4g every few hours. Don't worry about that. The important thing is to start dropping down, either lowering dose or frequency. By day 5 you should be down to 15g or less (total, per day- in my case, i liked doing 5 three g doses per day). Then I lowered, and i steadied out at 8 g a day, divided into four 2g doses. Did that for a week and a half then jumped two days ago. I don't feel that bad today. Admittedly, I ate .75mg xanax last night, cumulatively throughout the night so I could sleep. But it was kind of nice- I'd sleep for like 2 or 3 hours, but it felt like i had slept 10. Didn't have restless leg or anything, and I get that shit somethin fierce from regular opiate withdrawal. But everyone's different. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. The bupe is probably better for a nice smooth ride down the taper chart. But don't count kratom out. I never really liked mixing or alternating kratom and h. It was one or the other, Never both at the same time. Tried that once and had a freakout. Never again.

I like the kratom because it hits the receptors in a different way. I jumped off H 3 weeks ago and then jumped off kratom friday night. Yesterday wasn't the most pleasant, but it was a cakewalk compared to real opiate withdrawal. The downside of either kratom or subs is that they both are habit-forming. I don't care what all the kratom fanboys say (and I'm a kratom fan myself). So, just an alternative option there.

24 hours is absolutely fine but I've read here that someone had precipitated withdrawal even after 72 hours which seemed insane.. Still I've heard a lot of horror stories about pre-withdrawal so I'm trying to be safe.

I'll try having more kratom because I was drinking 3g x2 and it didn't help immensely. Which strains do you find best for H withdrawal?

Yes, I really like using xanax for withdrawals, it really helps! I could never image that I could not sleep from withdrawal, when I stop taking H I can sleep like 12 hours lol.
That's weird, I'm mixing both with no issues. As for addiction, I don't have an addictive personality so I can take pretty much anything without getting addicted. But that's just me.

So have you tried mixing kratom and bupe?

 

[Keif' Richards]

Darkcloud: You could even eat half of that dosage. If you're going by the principle of "you can always take more, but not less", there is no reason not to start small and increase incrementally.

The driving force behind precipitated withdrawal is impatience. It is really hard to wait.

You're right. Despite Buprenorphines otherwise confusing-as-fuck pharmakocinetics, taking higher dosages does seem to provoke more potent precipitated withdrawal episodes predictably.

No doubt Benzodiazepines are handy for withdrawal. Unfortunately I have basically no experience with Kratom. I started using Heroin fairly young because it was cheap and available. Things like Codeine, Kratom and such just dont do it for me.

 

[Branggen]

I bet that 24 hours after your heroin you will be good to take it, your tolerance is low and I never had problems with precipitated withdrawal until I had a higher tolerance, maybe a year+ into my addiction

Start with like 2mg or less because while you cant really od on bupe it is very strong by the mg, fentanyl is only about 1.5x stronger than bupe mg for mg

 

[Xorkoth]

24 hours is absolutely fine but I've read here that someone had precipitated withdrawal even after 72 hours which seemed insane.. Still I've heard a lot of horror stories about pre-withdrawal so I'm trying to be safe.

I'll try having more kratom because I was drinking 3g x2 and it didn't help immensely. Which strains do you find best for H withdrawal?

Yes, I really like using xanax for withdrawals, it really helps! I could never image that I could not sleep from withdrawal, when I stop taking H I can sleep like 12 hours lol.
That's weird, I'm mixing both with no issues. As for addiction, I don't have an addictive personality so I can take pretty much anything without getting addicted. But that's just me.

So have you tried mixing kratom and bupe?

I envy people who can sleep during opiate withdrawals, if I could sleep, I'd just sleep through it, no problem! For me, I can't sleep for days and can't stop moving my legs and arms, I feel like my skeleton is trying to crawl out of my body, I lay awake thrashing around in bed even though I'm so tired I'm going insane, and punch my legs as hard as I can until they go numb just so I can stop kicking my legs for a minute or two. The only thing that makes me feel relatively at peace is hot showers.