PTSD is an autoimmune disorder... any ideas for new treatment paths?

[cdin]

https://academic.oup.com/milmed/advance-article/doi/10.1093/milmed/usac095/6572045?login=false

It was revelatory to me to read this article. Oh my! I don't suffer from a mental condition with physical symptoms, i suffer from an auto-immune condition with physical and mental symptoms.

Given this knowledge -- how do we suppress these inflammatory markers and or change them back? CBD and Black seed oil are extremely helpful to me (THQ suppresses IL-6), but I'm interested in
additional, tolerable agents that suppress the other markers. Also -- non-drug solutions seem like the way out. The experience was what caused the initial epigenetic changes, it stands to reason that
experience is what is going to flip that switch back off..

any additional insight appreciated.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

That article is absolute garbage lmao

 

[emkee_reinvented]

https://academic.oup.com/milmed/advance-article/doi/10.1093/milmed/usac095/6572045?login=false

It was revelatory to me to read this article. Oh my! I don't suffer from a mental condition with physical symptoms, i suffer from an auto-immune condition with physical and mental symptoms.

Given this knowledge -- how do we suppress these inflammatory markers and or change them back? CBD and Black seed oil are extremely helpful to me (THQ suppresses IL-6), but I'm interested in
additional, tolerable agents that suppress the other markers. Also -- non-drug solutions seem like the way out. The experience was what caused the initial epigenetic changes, it stands to reason that
experience is what is going to flip that switch back off..

any additional insight appreciated.

Don't think so the changes the Hypotalamic area undergo during period's of sustained stress. That involve immune response, body temp regulation and sleeping pattern's among a few.

"Cortisol’s weakening effects on the immune response have also been well documented"

https://sites.dartmouth.edu/dujs/20...-and-the-hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal-axis/

 

[Xorkoth]

I think that PTSD certainly has far-reaching effects on all systems of the body, including the immune system. Anxiety is proven to cause stomach and digestive issues, when it's chronic, even to the point of causing "leaky gut". However I'm not sure I would go so far as to call PTSD an autoimmune disease. I would instead say that chronic stress and anxiety cause disease over time.

My girlfriend has PTSD and has developed serious stomach problems and endometriosis. I always wonder how much the two are related. I know for sure the stomach issues are closely related.

But yeah, chronic oversaturation of cortisol is very bad for you.

 

[cdin]

I think that PTSD certainly has far-reaching effects on all systems of the body, including the immune system. Anxiety is proven to cause stomach and digestive issues, when it's chronic, even to the point of causing "leaky gut". However I'm not sure I would go so far as to call PTSD an autoimmune disease. I would instead say that chronic stress and anxiety cause disease over time.

My girlfriend has PTSD and has developed serious stomach problems and endometriosis. I always wonder how much the two are related. I know for sure the stomach issues are closely related.

But yeah, chronic oversaturation of cortisol is very bad for you.

no no no. read the article. the cortisol is what CLEARS the cytokines and ends the normal stress cycle.

And yeah - endo, RA and other immune disorders go hand in hand with PTSD. I wondered why that is but no longer do - it's because the process underlying PTSD makes epigenetic RNA changes that increase expression of (i believe, if i remember right from the article, 7 or 8) different key inflammatory cytokines. This article isn't the only one going into all of this, and all of the research has been since about 2017/2018. im not sure what else you would call it than an autoimmune disorder -- sure it is initiated by psychological circumstance but once you have induced a large change like this in cytokine production -- that is the same sort of change you see in any other auto-immune disease (such as rhuematoid arthritis). It's also worth noting that the set off of any auto-immune disorder usually plays out around a stressor/challenge - a virus, an infection, a trauma etc. etc. some long term irritant that your body decides "well shit, this is how this is, better mount a long term response"
As far as survival, this very well be evolutions way of getting a mammal to just flat out walk the opposite direction of whatever the irritant is (assuming we're talking about PTSD. obviously you cant walk away from some environemental or other irritants).

I started down this path of research because I was 5 days into COVID being like "how does this virus feel EXACTLY like a PTSD break?" down to the depersonalization, physical effects, cardiac effects you name it. Another friend diagnosed PTSD who was down with COVID was on the phone with me frequently marvelling at how strange it was to be getting the symptoms sans trigger/stressful situation. It got me researching what cytokines are affected by COVID/what inflammatory markers produce the effects. turns out there is huge overlap with the cytokines mentioned in this article and several others from the military about the changes they observed in the blood of soldiers pre/post PTSD.

 

[Skorpio]

I wouldn't call it an autoimmune disorder, as it seems to be characterized by generalized inflammation rather than specific anti-self antibodies.

However, the immune system in the brain is intimately linked with function. Things like opioid withdrawal induce maladaptive behavior in glial cells for example, which contributes to sensitization and some medium-term circuit level changes.

However, I doubt there will be a simple drug that "lowers inflammation." Inflammation is a necessary and key process for the functioning of the body, and while many diseases are characterized by inappropriate, self-sustaining inflammation, it is not something easy to suppress (though immunosupressants like rapamycin do have antidepressant activity, possibly through this mechanism. Their side effects kind of prohibit their use though.)

Likely, we will find that the drugs that lower these forms of inflammation are drugs that have efficacy as antidepressants. (yes this is a bit of a tautology, but may not be obvious). I think it is also important to remember that conditions like depression and PTSD are complex disorders that become self-sustaining due to feedback loops at the cellular level. There are multiple lenses to analyze them with, but they are not mutually exclusive.

 

[cdin]

yep yep. i agree. might be more accurate to say "complex mental/physical disorder with prominent auto-immune links" and I don't think there will be a simple chemical cure, more looking for agents to suppress some markers, improve mood/function and be able to get self into a good place for an extended period of time. if a long period of stress is what induces the epigenetic changes, id wager a long period of safety and feeling un-threatened is probably what it takes to flip that switch back.

 

[Skorpio]

There is a pretty big genetic component, with the FKBP5 gene being heavily associated with development of PTSD following trauma. The gene product, FKBP51 binds glucocorticoid receptors and decreases both ligand binding and translocation to the nucleus. This impairs the compensatory effects of cortisol on stress.

The mutations that predispose to PTSD are not in coding regions of the gene, but regions which increase transscription in the presence of glucocorticoid receptor signaling. People with this risk allele who undergo trauma that produces a spike of cortisol will increase FKBP51 levels, and impair future responses to cortisol, which leads to the onset of PTSD in later life.

Allele-specific FKBP5 DNA demethylation mediates gene–childhood trauma interactions

Of course the actions of cortisol include immune regulation (in the form of suppressing the immune system), as well as altered cellular energy/glucose metabolism.

I guess it's also important to note that the answer isn't as simple as ramping up cortisol levels. Cushing's disease, a syndrome of unregulated cortisol production, itself causes depression.

 

[Kellsee]

This is gonna sound crazy to everyone cause you'd just have to know a lot about my life to understand why I think this. But I totally believe this is what's happened to me. In fact I am showing that article to my doctor next week. It's been a nightmare trying to figure all of what's been happening to me out. Clinically I've been diagnosed with MCTD....mixed connective tissue disease. I am positive for the antigens of several auto immune diseases plus my immune system is attacking the myelin sheath around my nerve endings. I could go into deep details because I've had so many tests. Theres a lot to it all.. But they haven't been able to put it all together in a way that could explain it because there's been too many opposing variables. It's like I've became severely allergic to myself. Stress is the biggest trigger. When I get upset it can put me out for weeks. I've always felt that everything I've had to hold inside...that I've never been able to acknowledge....plays a part cause of the relief I feel just thinking about coming out about it all. It's crazy. But I do believe it's eventually gonna kill me.


And no current common protocol is gonna allow for the time any doctor would need to look at my case from the full picture

 

[Skorpio]

Maybe irt the knowledge shared by @Skorpio above could account for some of the mechanisms by which Psilocybin microdosing, or general appropriate use, can be genuinely effective with PTSD in particular to be virtually hailed for it by the strong growing scientific community showing increasing interest last decade almost now, as with Cannabis research becoming more open, studying, understanding better the medicine of it.


I always viewed mushrooms as a kind of "resetter" of so many things.

I believe regular Psilocybin use enabled me to take such a rare and astronomical amount of original Exstacy a lifetime ago now, and not be at all sabotaged....from that anyway.

Lyme 12 Exstacy nil

On that front lol honest. It's a perspective anyway lol.


But just correction of physical at root NS agitation, physical memory trauma storage, neurological healing.

On paper. Might help!


I have very severe PTSD myself to try and resolve in time after multiple overlapping mega severe Long Covids damaged and trashed my own NS beyond anything espec recently, too much else in the package as well.


Lyme....3.8 Covids....13! In terms of impact and level of damage. For me.



I want to get some psilocybin try it for a reset, see if it eases my wildly agitated nervous system and more.

LSD strongly irritates, exacerbates nerve damage symptoms suddenly.

I took huge levels of it all 21.


Shrooms may not cause this nerve problem maybe even help.

Hmm, this one isn't easy either.

The original push for classifying the effects of psychadelics on depression used the paradigm of depression being a learning disorder, and psychadelics increasing neuron growth.


Psychedelics and Other Psychoplastogens for Treating Mental Illness (and I tend to roll my eyes when people coin new names like psychoplastogens to capitalize on trendy fields of research, but it doesn't mean the work is bad)

A cursory search showed a study looking into a model of asthma for airway inflammation with a bevy of psychs (they focus on DOI, an especially strong anti-inflammatory, and found 2C-H, which is inactive as a psychadelic to reduce inflammation). However, in one figure they do test some ergoloids and tryptamines, interestingly psilocin has rather weak anti-inflammatory activity, and N,N-DMT and 5-meo DMT have no anti-inflammatory activity.

Structure–Activity Relationship Analysis of Psychedelics in a Rat Model of Asthma Reveals the Anti-Inflammatory Pharmacophore

I think it is likely that these studies are both describing the same phenomenon, but looking at it in different contexts.