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Psychopaths on psychedelics

I know this is a bit of a grave dig but I am in a unique position to answer this, as I have been diagnosed as having Narcissistic personality disorder which is fairly close to psychopathy.

Sober, I don't feel much. No real emotions almost like being dead inside. Kind of like Patrick Bateman from American Psycho, sans killing people. On psychedelics I can feel, I can seemingly empathize with people when normally I can't. I like psychedelics for that fact. They make it so I can feel things like a "normal" person. Granted those feelings occasionally go the wrong way and it exacerbates things and can manage to turn me into a raging lunatic.

That is also one of the reasons I don't drink alcohol often. If I get more than just buzzed it tends to awaken some deep seated inner rage.
 
if I may ask:
did you try MDMA (or a related substance)?
are you in any form of therapy?

...I know the 'dead inside' feeling very well from depressive episodes - going hand in hand with narcissistic tendencies...
 
GG allin was given LSD once - it didn't make him any less violent, as he reportedly destroyed an entire house & attemped (unsuccessfully) to kill his own brother. psychedelic drugs will NOT cure sociopathic and/or psychopathic behavior, as lovely an idea that may be. quite the contrary, it's more than likely to culminate in more excessive behavior, or possibly worse.

hallucinogenic compounds & the mentally ill are not compatible, and it would be tremendously irresponsible to dispense any substance with psychedelic effects to individuals suffering from mental illness.
 
...and the drug. What about Ibogaine? From what I've heard it's markedly different from other psychs, and very useful as a tool for personal growth. If there's even a slight possibility of helping sociopaths understand human empathy, then why give up trying?
 
Some people gamble and take psychedelics...and get lucky...and have life-changing experiences without ever intending to have one, or without having realized that psychedelics could be a catylist for such a change.

But the idea that taking a psychedelic can 'make one see the light' is very flawed. Psychedelics only 'work' reliably when the user has specific intentions, the setting is good, and there is a trained 'guide' for before, during, and after the experience.

I'd be willing to bet psychedelics are not any more likely to 'fix the psychopathic' mind than any other form of therapy. However.....combine a life-long psychedelic practitioner/healer (or Shaman for those outside the West) with good intentions and the right knowledge with something like ibogaine (that literally destroys the cells that store the memories that result in maladaptive behavior patterns) and it could make for an interesting research paper.

Answer: unknown
 
johannes kreisler said:
if I may ask:
did you try MDMA (or a related substance)?
are you in any form of therapy?

...I know the 'dead inside' feeling very well from depressive episodes - going hand in hand with narcissistic tendencies...
Click to expand...

No, never tried MDMA though I plan on trying it at some point.

No to the therapy question as well. I've essentially taught myself to function mostly normally in life. I still don't really understand other people, but I do make an effort to be cognizant of how my actions will affect others and attempt to avoid those actions that lead to another person's suffering.

None of the psychedelics I've tried have had any significant lasting affect as far as empathy is concerned. They only allow a temporary state of normalcy in that regard. One particular trip did allow me to see how my actions can affect others and that has stuck with me. I still have no real regard for the feelings of others as I can't really relate to them, but I do try to avoid upsetting people.
 
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unfuckwitable said:
GG allin was given LSD once - it didn't make him any less violent, as he reportedly destroyed an entire house & attemped (unsuccessfully) to kill his own brother. psychedelic drugs will NOT cure sociopathic and/or psychopathic behavior, as lovely an idea that may be. quite the contrary, it's more than likely to culminate in more excessive behavior, or possibly worse.

hallucinogenic compounds & the mentally ill are not compatible, and it would be tremendously irresponsible to dispense any substance with psychedelic effects to individuals suffering from mental illness.
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i can back that up the evil that can come out in me at times when on a hallucinogenic is damn scary . not towards everyday people but to scum like nonce and the like is not a healthy thing . i know i am not a psychopath/sociopath well i think not lol but do have mental health problems and the drugs do unlock things at times which can mark your soul as going down if you dont watch it
 
Charles Manson is the first guy to come to mind. Clearly a psychopath who happened to use and abuse psychadelics.


It is my own private conspiracy theory but I think Son of Sam was an MK-ULTRA mistake gone vey wrong.
 
muvolution said:
As far as the tripping girl with the gun in the closet, I think you have constructed a whole mythos to fit events which seem meaningful, but are really just coincidences. We can find meaning in anything if we look hard enough. I would encourage you to seperate the facts from the conclusions here, and then to look at those facts to see what you learned afterwards and are using to post-rationalize this. Not criticising you, just urging you to deconstruct the events to find out what happened.
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While I partly agree with you and DaveTripper, I know exactly what miliefisathand means about "knowing" how to influence others. I think I might have noticed this in part to my reading of A New Earth, and subsequently The Four Agreements. TFA, in which Don Miguel Ruiz tells the teachings of the Toltec people, says that our words and actions are magic, they have power. That each person is living their "dream", in which their reality is governed mostly by their thoughts. Our words and actions can plant thoughts in others heads, change them, erase them, etc. Now, it my belief, and that of miliefisathand (correct me if I'm wrong), that we can control others with deep enough intuition and presentness (just being aware, etc). That is if you believe controlling their thoughts is controlling them, which I think is very close. Of course you can't just take MDMA or LSD, feel that deep emotional/social connection, and then go influence the president. People are too caught up in their own dream to let you influence them more than some facial expressions, laughs, words, thoughts, etc. But in my experience, when multiple people take the same drug and trip/roll together, it changes that. The experience is shared and all members are felt as equal parts of it. In those states, it's easy even for me, to see how my body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, etc changes the actions of others.

So while he may be looking a little deep into it, I still don't see how this point could be refuted. We're very social creatures, with our social awareness magnified a thousand-fold while tripping, and I think that isn't something to take lightly. I've had multiple trips ruined by those I was with.
 
Yeah, I was always facinated about reading up on MK -ULTRA and Project Aquarius. Human weapons projects were very real at one point, and CIA apointed shrinks thought it best to use those who would not talk or would not be beleived as guinea pigs. IE......... Criminals and occaisionally the criminally insane. the cat was out of the box on LSD in the 50's and 60's.... The CIA was all over it, rummors were rampid at the time that the soviets were close to something .... telekentic weapons, these are the kind of concepts that gave us books like Fire Starter.

and even though little was published regarding other compounds people like Manson knew all about Belladonna, how to use sex and psychadelics to create a cult around him.

I could write a book... several really, I just don't know how to end any of them... I am pretty sure one of them has to do with alien invasion that makes everyone feel like they tripping face.
 
NotQuiteThere said:
I've taken lsd with the guy as well as 2c-e and ketamine. No, I didn't notice the drugs giving him any empathy. If anything, they made him worse. With the 2c-e for example, I'd obtained 200mg and mixed it in with a certain quantity of water in a jar, and we were dosing it out using one of those medicine measuring cups you use for say cough syrup. My other roommate and I had left the room and when we came back, he was acting crazy and joking that he had just drank some of the rest and didn't know how much. My other roommate freaked out (she had never tripped before) and started screaming at him to go throw up or something. I on the other hand immediately went and measured the volume of liquid left and discovered there was MORE than there had been to start. I tested some of the remainder and found it was still potent. He had simply diluted the mixture but was absolutely hellbent on convincing us that he had taken an unknown amount of 2c-e, knowing he had been very unstable the past few weeks.
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ok decided to bump your really old post to let you know that what i feel happened there was he DID drink a random ammount of the 2c-e, than added water back to it so you thought he hadnt actually taken any and diluted it
 
^this does sound a bit more likely. yet if he was so adamant about notifying others about ingesting the compound, why bother w/ attempting to cover up what you've ingested by adding more liquid? then again, rationalizing w/ the actions of the mentally ill is a futile if not altogether senseless task. who knows??
 
Psychedelics have three main areas of effect: Perception, Thought and Emotion. Psychopaths are severely emotionally eroded, the only real emotions they have are feeling good and being angry. Like a blind or deaf person, the energies that would be distributed over the missing senses get invested into the ones that are still there. Because of this, psychopaths are capable of anger/rage beyond anything normal people are capable of.

On top of that they have a lot less inner restraint keeping them from violent or destructive urges. Much of our restraint comes from conscience and emotion, and those are lacking in the psychopath. Their restraint comes from Thought, rationalizing that its not a good idea to act out destructively instead of feeling inner emotional/conscience restraint. It takes a LOT of will power and energy for a psychopath to stay in control.

Psychedelics as said distort Thought and Perception. This may cause a psychopath to lose the control he has maintained most of his life, and are conductive to feeding Emotion.

Guys, do not be naive and give a psychopath psychedelics. They don't have a disorder or disease, they are a particular KIND of person, and while psychedelics may change nurture, they cannot change nature. Its as pointless as giving a paralyzed person LSD in the expectation he will get up and walk. Its not going to happen, that what is required is physically, biologically, not there.

Metaphor: Don't be a chicken who gives the fox LSD hoping he will turn into a chicken or leave the coop in peace. Not going to happen, its a fox. At best he'll have an awesome time, at worst he will lose control and do what foxes do when in the chicken coop. If anger and frenzied rage should erupt, you as the one who gave him the drug will be prime target. He will rip into you without any restraint or loyalty to the friendship or comraderie you felt you had with him.

DON'T DO IT. Take it from a guy who in his younger years naively gave Ecstasy to a sociopath and almost got killed, and who studied the phenomenon of psychopathy thoroughly to avoid ever getting in the way of a psychopath again.

They are the fox and we are the chickens. We are only superficially alike, it is a branch of the human species that seeks to take over and already is very much in control.
 
Not true

TestOfSanity said:
Everyone experiences anxiety to some degree, even psychopaths. Some violent outbursts are brought on by (social anxiety, and other types of) anxiety. The only way some serial killers could get rid of the anxiety was to kill, just as someone with ocd has to touch the doorknob 14 times before turning it to avoid anxiety. Most psychopaths are antisocial, to avoid anxious situations.
Click to expand...

Not true. If you'd read that anecdote somewhere then if anything it was referring to how a psychopath, in an attempt to dupe investigators, used 'built up anxiety' as an excuse for his crime; Akin to Bundy's excuse of pornography driving him to kill.

Factor Analysis of the initial 160 items revealed 8 factors:[1]


  • Machiavellian Egocentricity: A lack of empathy and sense of detachment from others for the sake of achieving one's own goals
  • Social Potency: The ability to charm and influence others
  • Coldheartedness: A distinct lack of emotion, guilt, or regard for others' feelings
  • Carefree Nonplanfulness: Difficulty in planning ahead and considering the consequences of one's actions
  • Fearlessness: An eagerness for risk-seeking behaviors, as well as a lack of the fear that normally goes with them
  • Blame Externalization: Inability to take responsibility for one's actions, instead blaming others or rationalizing one's behavior
  • Impulsive Nonconformity: A disregard for social norms and culturally acceptable behaviors
  • Stress Immunity: A lack of typical marked reactions to traumatic or otherwise stress-inducing events

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathic_Personality_Inventory
 
There is good evidence to suggest that psychopaths are not devoid of emotion but have another way of turning their thoughts and feelings into behavior as they seem to have a disrupted connection between amygdala and PFC (iirc) the latter of which is supposed to play a role in managing/suppressing emotion... clearly they don't let feelings make decisions we consider empathic and indeed stay aimed at achieving their goals.

Violent outbursts may be a result of pent up / unaddressed emotion but it seems like you can't generalize this into an excuse for violence, especially since the violence may have been a result of goal-driven and 'coldhearted' behavior.

Psychedelics are supposed to harmonize mental functions, the question is though: what is a harmonized mind to someone who is wired differently? I don't think this will always overcome what we consider pathological since developmental disorders can produce brains / minds that are not necessarily internally disordered but rather anomalous compared to those of neurotypicals. Consider PDD-NOS (pervasive developmental disorder), with examples like this do a thought experiment on imagining a world filled with people who are wired like that, and how much dysfunction and complaints there would still be that are in our normal world a result of a mismatch with neurotypical persons... problems that can make a person dysfunctional but still perfectly happy to be the way they are, just not in an ill-adjusted world.

A world filled with psychopaths would be some wild west sort of pandemonium, everyone just being a calculating predator in some ways or another... A harrowing thought but if it levels the playing field it would be pretty normal whereas a world filled with anxious or depressed people would not level their playing field, maybe in some curious ways it might but for the most part not.

In my experience psychedelics can produce or help solve neuroses among other things, things like out of control complex subconscious thought loops of various kinds... but they don't magically rewire people into a neurotypical and expecting that may be a neurotypical-centered idea?
 
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