Psychedelics' place in Virtual Reality

[vortech]

I just watched this video '11 Oculus Rift Crescent Bay Prototype Reactions '
To understand how much of a game-changer the imminent availability of convincing virtual reality is (to the average technologically-affluent population), all you need to do is watch these people's reactions to the newest version of the Rift. I've already been well aware that we are on the cusp of a technological revolution that has no precedent. What I was left wondering after this video is what the future holds for virtual reality experiences that are designed for or enhanced by psychedelic drugs. I imagine dissociative drugs in particular are going to have a new renaissance when people start realizing the synergy between their effects and the powerful potential of virtual reality to disembody one's consciousness.

What are your thoughts about the emergence of virtual reality and how this technology might ripple through the sociocultural economic fabric? More on topic, how do you think this will push the envelope for experiments in altered states of consciousness? Virtual reality can be seen as a drug in itself in this sense for how extremely it can alter consciousness. I'm seeing 'games' that are basically abstract interactive trips where you engineer the setting with the ease of manipulating some virtual objects and voicing some commands, stuff that bridges that gap between being a creator and a consumer, and then play around in that space together with your friends (and all manners of AI). Combining with a psychedelic to enhance the senses and presence is just icing on the cake.

It's already set in stone that this tech will blow up fast creating new industries and markets overnight, especially now that Facebook owns Oculus and plans to sell the hardware more or less at-cost to consumers.

The question is, what will humanity do with it?

Will we create beautiful art and stories to help find ourselves while we lose ourselves? Will we unite in constructing virtual cities of vast interconnected information engineered to exist in pure harmony so that we may learn how to do so in reality? Will it help humanity dissolve duality as the lines between 'self' and 'other' are crossed in innumerable ways? Or will virtual reality turn to be a primarily hedonistic playground to escape from reality, shooting aliens and having sex with computer generated models? Either way, it's an exciting time to be a psychonaut, whether as a developer or a consumer in this new technological age where the lines between worlds are continually blurred.

 

[SWIM Had A Dream]

Military training will have(has) it first...they have the funding, the demand, and, the know how to implement VR in training forces for scenarios that are too dangerous/costly/detailed to simulate in real life.

The technology will trickle down, and in the future, loading a memory or a scenario will be commonplace, like putting on music or a movie

 

[max_freakout]

According to THIS article, the psychedelic experience demonstrates that ordinary reality (the physical universe) is actually a remarkably detailed and consistent virtual simulation.

And according to THIS article, the world is very likely to be a virtual reality simulation designed by an advanced future technology

 

[vortech]

^I've always had an open mind about simulation theory, at least ever since it was popularized by The Matrix movie in 1999. Suddenly everyone was pondering if we were living in a computer program.
So, assuming this is a simulation, what does this say for us that we are creating our own simulated realities, that we are approaching the level of advancement of our creators? After all, 'God made man in his image' which may mean we have equal potential to create.

 

[Xorkoth]

Interesting thoughts. I'll say more later, but it's exciting that this technology is on the horizon.

I don't understand how anyone can say "it's very likely we were started as a virtual simulation by advanced beings", but I have often wondered about that (as purely interesting speculation).

 

[max_freakout]

I don't understand how anyone can say "it's very likely we were started as a virtual simulation by advanced beings"

the creator of the simulation argument states his case clearly in this interview - http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/5/e/4/5e4...13470471&hwt=479667072f30d74d6644d8ea4862a773

 

[Vurtual]

I'm not sure how far virtual reality on its own can match psychedelic experience as there is only a change in the sensory data and not really much direct change to internal mind structures (ie i'd think the ego would largely remain intact); saying that though, sensory deprivation can have wild effects with only sense data being changed (maybe it'll work best if you just turn it off and have a blank screen ). Judging by previous performance, i'd imagine most game subjects to be more likely to strengthen and titilate the ego, but it'd be great to see some games aimed more directly at mind expansion - and this seems possible with the amount of indie developers about. Those audiosurf type games on VR could be amazing (with a head full of something)
...

Not that many physicists will go as far as 'reality being a simulation' but lots are exploring 'digital physics' - the idea that reality is information or computation (whatever that means). I liked the idea i read about which claims to explain relativity and quantum physics as a consequence of simulation (time dilation and that is just what happens if you try to outpace the 'processing rate' of 'reality'; quantum observer effect being explained by 'reality' only being rendered when it needs to be). It seems a bit dodgy logic to me somehow: are the physics of our simulated reality different to the 'master' reality; if so, does the master reality not have relativity or quantum mechanics? Is it just a simple intuitive newtonian universe (and would that even work) - if it was, our universe would be so different to it that it wouldn't really be a simulation as so many of the macro properties of our universe emerge from quantum properties (eg fusion in stars requires quantum tunneling). If the physics of this reality is the same as the over-reality (as far as we can measure), then what's the value of the theory? it becomes unprovable like string theory (though i like that too...).

Then there's the 'omega point' variation, that we're being simulated by the intelligences alive at the end of the universe: as the universe (possibly) contracts on itself in a 'big crunch' at a certain point there would be effectively infinite energy for computation available - the beings still alive (in computronium or something) are simulating the whole of history to right wrongs and to make it better somehow (they don't seem to be doing it too well...but we don't know what it was like before); in the theory, ghosts, religious visions and paranormal stuff is a sign of the activity of the programmers fixing stuff. Comes from Frank Tipler, inspired by Teillhard de Chardin (and has been used in the plot of various sci fi books)

As for us building a simulation inside a simulation - check out 'Simulacron 3' (the film '13th floor' and the 70s german tv series 'world on a wire' (the original matrix) are both based on it )

 

[perpetualdawn]

If we are inside a virtual reality, there must be a fundamental reality that our ego/conciousness resides in, because for every layer of virtual reality you can ask: who is it that this virtual reality being rendered for? And the answer to that must be that there is some kind of concious entity that resides in a more fundamental layer for whom the VR is being presented.

Unless you believe that our conciousness/ego itself is being simulated. In which case you can ask: who is it that is being tricked into thinking they have an ego/conciousness/existence by this simulation? I think my head is going to explode.

 

[psood0nym]

Cool thread, vortech. I agree that overcoming the latency times in processing VR environments so that the simulations keep up with our eye and head movements is a true game changer with regard to users' sense of immersion. Now it's finally really starting to feel like "the future."

As liberating as I imagine such a leap in experiential immersion will be for some, I can't ignore the alarmingly negative effects MMPORGs like Starcraft have had for years on some users through regular old desktop monitors. Many of us have read the reports of avid fans literally dying of health complications stemming from playing such games for days on end, or experiencing profound shifts in their sense of identity as they project more and more of themselves into their avatars.

I suspect that with the leap in sensory immersion displayed by the new imaging tech it won't just be social outliers finding themselves under the spell of these ever-more-real games. It could get really sad, and fast. Taking psychedelics into such environments could entrance users even more, or conversely the perspective shift could help game addicts see the disturbingly real effects these fantasy worlds can have.

I'm not sure how far virtual reality on its own can match psychedelic experience as there is only a change in the sensory data and not really much direct change to internal mind structures (ie i'd think the ego would largely remain intact); saying that though, sensory deprivation can have wild effects with only sense data being changed (maybe it'll work best if you just turn it off and have a blank screen ).

I agree. I'm excited to see how VR can be exploited to enhance sensory deprivation (or more likely to confuse or re-direct perceptual processing in profound and unprecedented ways).

 

[transitionsynth]

I think that having a mask that makes the visual and audio move along with your head is hardly even approaching what could be really considered a virtual reality. In fact I think there's a category mistake here. Simply coupling one's usual body schema with the addition of a video/audiostream that externally tracks head and body movements isn't even a step toward proper virtual reality in any robust sense. What we would need is a device that tracks and modifies internal properties of the body schema as lived body and not as physiological body. But using computational tools to do so seems hopeless to me. The mind and body are not computational and work in a way so alien to computers that, if we were going to use electronic devices in creating virtual reality, we'd need to redefine how we even conceptualize the notion of "computation" before we could even get started.

But just like everyone blindly thought we were on the brink of proper AI in the 80s and 90s, so they will here again drink the kool-aid and buy into the hype that "virtual reality is almost here." It's not, because we're not even close to having the right methods to even articulate the questions we'd need to ask to get going.

 

[psood0nym]

I think that having a mask that makes the visual and audio move along with your head is hardly even approaching what could be really considered a virtual reality. In fact I think there's a category mistake here. Simply coupling one's usual body schema with the addition of a video/audiostream that externally tracks head and body movements isn't even a step toward proper virtual reality in any robust sense. What we would need is a device that tracks and modifies internal properties of the body schema as lived body and not as physiological body. But using computational tools to do so seems hopeless to me. The mind and body are not computational and work in a way so alien to computers that, if we were going to use electronic devices in creating virtual reality, we'd need to redefine how we even conceptualize the notion of "computation" before we could even get started.

But just like everyone blindly thought we were on the brink of proper AI in the 80s and 90s, so they will here again drink the kool-aid and buy into the hype that "virtual reality is almost here." It's not, because we're not even close to having the right methods to even articulate the questions we'd need to ask to get going.

I don't think the hype is that the new VR is virtually REAL. The hype is that finally wearing the goggles doesn't make people vomit from motion sickness, and that modest fact means it's passed a decades-long hurtle to mass integration by the mainstream (and serious attention from investors). I also don't think it matters that much that there's no haptic gloves, direct spinal uplink to a fully realized organic computer, etc. Human perception is easy to fool, especially when we want it to be. Judging by the reactions of trial users it's convincing enough to seriously distinguish it from other interfaces.

That said, I agree with some of what you're saying with regard to AI. I just don't think it matters to having fun with the tech while tripping, heh.

 

[transitionsynth]

I don't think the hype is that the new VR is virtually REAL. The hype is that finally wearing the goggles doesn't make people vomit from motion sickness, and that modest fact means it's passed a decades-long hurtle to mass integration by the mainstream (and serious attention from investors). I also don't think it matters that much that there's no haptic gloves, direct spinal uplink to a fully realized organic computer, etc. Human perception is easy to fool, especially when we want it to be. Judging by the reactions of trial users it's convincing enough to seriously distinguish it from other interfaces.

That said, I agree with some of what you're saying with regard to AI. I just don't think it matters to having fun with the tech while tripping, heh.

Fair enough, and well stated.

In light of your points, I might better state my point in saying I think we should just be careful about what we're really dealing with here, namely, a new iteration of a gaming system, not anything radically new in kind. To me "virtual reality" has quite strong connotations that shouldn't be equivocated so lightly.

 

[vortech]

Fair enough, and well stated.

In light of your points, I might better state my point in saying I think we should just be careful about what we're really dealing with here, namely, a new iteration of a gaming system, not anything radically new in kind. To me "virtual reality" has quite strong connotations that shouldn't be equivocated so lightly.

The software, what humanity actually creates with it, will determine whether or not this is just the next iteration of a gaming system. I hope with the next generation of independent developers that it will in fact be a paradigm shift, whether or not the mainstream actually tunes into it. Our generation has been dreaming about VR for a good 20 years, so there is a lot of pent-up creativity to get out.

As liberating as I imagine such a leap in experiential immersion will be for some, I can't ignore the alarmingly negative effects MMPORGs like Starcraft have had for years on some users through regular old desktop monitors. Many of us have read the reports of avid fans literally dying of health complications stemming from playing such games for days on end, or experiencing profound shifts in their sense of identity as they project more and more of themselves into their avatars.

I suspect that with the leap in sensory immersion displayed by the new imaging tech it won't just be social outliers finding themselves under the spell of these ever-more-real games. It could get really sad, and fast. Taking psychedelics into such environments could entrance users even more, or conversely the perspective shift could help game addicts see the disturbingly real effects these fantasy worlds can have.

I agree. I'm excited to see how VR can be exploited to enhance sensory deprivation (or more likely to confuse or re-direct perceptual processing in profound and unprecedented ways).

I was hoping this concern would be addressed here. I am worried it will create possibly as many new social problems as it does opportunities for healthy life-affirming mind-expanding experiences. People will need to be educated on these potential problems, and developers have a moral imperative to develop 'healthy' experiences knowing how deeply they can affect the users. This is one step before jacking directly into peoples minds, so there's a lot of responsibility to take in here.

As for the sensory dep, this is where it could get really cool with programs designed for psychedelic holes for example. Start with darkness and slowly play with the user with subtle colors abstract images and sounds...if it could integrate biofeedback, reading heart rate and brainwaves it could get realllly transformative.

 

[transitionsynth]

The software, what humanity actually creates with it, will determine whether or not this is just the next iteration of a gaming system. I hope with the next generation of independent developers that it will in fact be a paradigm shift, whether or not the mainstream actually tunes into it. Our generation has been dreaming about VR for a good 20 years, so there is a lot of pent-up creativity to get out.

No, you precisely missed my point. It's got nothing to do with the software because the genesis of what we think of as "reality" is accomplished in a way that is alien to the very way we define computation, and therefore it doesn't matter what software is run, it will never be anything approaching a "virtual reality." It is and only can be a gaming system, or perhaps a training system, and the like, but nothing like "virtual reality" in the true sense.

As to whether being on dissociatives while using the device would make it more immersive, sure, that seems quite likely, as being on dissociatives makes the intake of any media more immersive.

 

[zn13bt]

If you're susceptible to VR sickness, then MXE will make it much, much worse (speaking from personal experience here).

 

[DubNaut]

posting 2 come back to this later

but with the likes of oculus rift, it is very very relative 2 high plateau doses and states of sigma reception seen in dissociates and dissociation in general

 

[phuckingnutz]

It is what it is...reality is perception is reality...does it really matter?...me thinks it doesn't...does it?

 

[:DNA]

In a world of ever-widening social and economic inequality, the promise of a hitherto unimagined technological means of manipulating every aspect of sensation and perception is the fruit, purported root and justification for keeping things *just as they are*, by those who frolic in the playground of late capitalism. You think newer, greater, shinier toys is the way of meaningful change, of liberation? What, the revolutionary potential of lysergic acid diethylamide isn't enough anymore? We need even more rarefied and hyperspecialized technological objects? More material things to become enslaved to? More fetishized commodities? Or have you just given up entirely altogether?

 

[phuckingnutz]

Cypher:"You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize?"
[Takes a bite of steak]
Cypher: " Ignorance is bliss."

Yes, yes it is...Embrace reality...wherever you find it...even if it's not real reality.
I've gone over the edge and I'm not ever coming back.

 

[.:Holy::Toast:.]

It is what it is...reality is perception is reality...does it really matter?...me thinks it doesn't...does it?

This, it's important to remember we do not see with our eyes.
Our reality is created by our brain processing electrical stimuli send from our sense receptors.
What you see is not the same as what everyone else sees, colourblindness being a perfect example.