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Psychedelics as a way to relieve headaches

Goodwalt

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
178
My girl has had headaches pretty much her entire life. They aren't incapacitating most of the time, but she takes ibuprofen almost daily and sometimes it doesn't even help her feel better. Then I read that people microdosed LSD and psilocybin to treat cluster headaches, and we got excited: maybe there was a way other than damn ibuprofen daily!!

So I ask you guys, has anyone ever used psychedelics or even dissos for headaches with any success? If so, which one, how much, how often? We would really appreciate any input :)
 
My ex-girlfriend was able to cure a migraine that she's had for a few years now with psychedelics, but the cure only lasted 3-4 days and then the migraine would come back. It's worth a shot though.
Keep in mind headaches and migraines are usually caused by different things.
 
Yes first check whether it's migraines and what kind (there are unusually cruel ones like cluster migraines), and whether she has considered options like sumatriptan if migraines. If not migraines, I don't think psychedelics are an answer and it's better to see a specialist or at least with your gp find out what's causing it - like tension, blood pressure issues or unusual anatomy.
 
Yeah, I would have to agree that it really depends on the type of headache.... It's possible, but don't get too excited until you know for sure. I have regular headaches too, not migraines or cluster headaches, but tension headaches. Psychedelics don't make the pain go away at all except during the trip itself, and almost always I actually get a comedown headache after the trip ends, and sometimes the next day. So I really use them in spite of their effects on my headaches, not for them.

Headaches suck though, and I can empathize with the desire to find a way out. I'll keep my fingers crossed for this!
 
Migraines can be helped through the actual 5-HT1 and 5HT2 agonism I think, which does influence blood flow but differently than how something like caffeine affects it, or just random vasoconstrictors and vasodilators. Sometimes headaches can be relieved by proper effects on the bloodflow, even from very unselective vasoactive drugs... but I think you can also get a headache from the same mechanism if it's in the unfavorable direction rather than favorable.

Which makes just taking vasoactive drugs unreliable if you don't know what's going on, you can get a headache from LSD and other vasoactive psychedelics if you're unlucky although I am not saying this is 100% exactly as likely as getting relief from a headache from LSD.
 
She has seen specialists since she was a child, and they treated her with everything that could possibly help her, including ssris, but nothing worked. Her sister has cluster headaches, actually I feel worse for her because when an episode occurs she has to lie down with the lights off, makes her sick and stuff like that. So what could be a minor improvement for my girl could actually be life saving for her sis. She's currently taking propranolol which I believe is helping her.
They both already gave up on the subject and that makes me so sad, but I don't want to recommend they take illegal drugs just because of something I read online, but I really want to help them :(
 
Has your girl ever done psychedelics? If not, I think recommending psychedelics is probably not the best idea, unless she's really open to them. Taking a very small dose is unlikely to produce much of a high, but if she's a person that they help with for headaches, it could provide relief. But yeah, it's supposed to help migraines and cluster headaches.

However, your girl's sister might be able to benefit, as psychedelics specifically seem to help cluster headaches.
 
True: the necessary dose should be sub-hallucinogenic. I agree that it's important that she is open to them, but she doesn't have to be open to mindblowing trips, mostly to the general idea and the generic vibe and slightly altered headspace such a low dose could produce. I'd say the major thing that could produce a bad mental reaction would be freaking out over the idea, over the principle of having an altered headspace. But the actual effects would be minor so it's more of a 'fearing fear itself' or driving yourself crazy thing rather than the LSD doing much there.

Realize that illicit LSD is not reliably dosed, more often hits are underdosed than overdosed which would mostly require trying again a little higher, but if overdosed she could get an actual trip. So RC lysergamide analogues like ALD-52 or 1P-LSD would be better options as the are not explicitly illegal (though still potentially under the analogue act, but you are very unlikely to get prosecuted for getting a personal quantity I guess - don't pin me down on that of course), and those also tend to be relatively honestly advertised with regard to dose.

I still haven't heard you confirm what her diagnosis is supposed to be exactly, and perhaps if she has tried triptans and they weren't effective the odds aren't so great - but otoh those act on different 5-HT receptors. Only BOL-148 afaik is a sort of non-psychedelic LSD analogue with comparable pharmacodynamics suitable for cluster headaches, not sure why it's not marketed at least I don't think it is.

http://www.nature.com/news/2006/060911/full/news060911-05.html

"I use psilocybin, and use just enough that I can feel the effects but don't really hallucinate as people would expect." The feeling, he says, is similar to what others might call a "two-beer buzz".

If the effectivity of LSD is down to the 5-HT2B agonism though, there is an issue: messing with 5-HT2B through either agonism or antagonism can apparently cause cardiac or pulmonary fibrosis. This is the reason some cluster headache meds / prophylaxes are now a bit controversial. Possibly you might as well take methysergide.
But, drugs like LSD may be way more effective and would only require quite infrequent use to stop cycles, definitely so infrequent that it couldn't really be unsafe.
 
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She is not into them as much as I am, but she has tried some chems with me and she liked the idea of microdosing if it could help her feel better.
Her sister is way more reluctant to the idea and we didn't even talk to her about it yet.
 
(I want to edit, but I'm on my phone)
She said she took amitryptiline (I'm not sure how to spell it) when she was younger but it didn't help. We don't know the actual diagnose, we assume it isn't migraine or at least not to the degree her sister has. She's fine with the idea of having drugs into her system as long as she can function and think normally.
 
Seems like you'd try some CBD/MJ before psychs. That ever worked?
 
A friend who has cluster headaches eats a few (like a dozen at a time) morning glory seeds and finds it quite effective, cheap, and readily available. No legal issues, and the added benefit of being "natural/organic" which makes some people more comfortable, for some odd reason....than they might be eating strange research chemicals.
 
She has seen specialists since she was a child, and they treated her with everything that could possibly help her, including ssris, but nothing worked. Her sister has cluster headaches, actually I feel worse for her because when an episode occurs she has to lie down with the lights off, makes her sick and stuff like that. So what could be a minor improvement for my girl could actually be life saving for her sis. She's currently taking propranolol which I believe is helping her.
They both already gave up on the subject and that makes me so sad, but I don't want to recommend they take illegal drugs just because of something I read online, but I really want to help them :(

My dad used to have cluster headaches, and the most effective treatment turned out to be an oxygen tank (Sumatriptan did help, but the attacks were so sudden and intense that oral just didn't hit him fast enough, and he didn't have the stomach to inject it IM) and generally avoiding histamine-rich food duringthose days.

Anyway, psychedelics work for migraines because they are serotonin agonists and thus vasoconstrictors... as are modern "triptan"-type migraine meds which are actually just tryptamines that are more selective for specific 5HT1 receptors. If you look at the molecular structure of sumatriptan you'll see that it's actually an analog of DMT. So if the triptans didn't do enough for her, I would not necessarily expect any wonders from psychedelics.
 
A friend who has cluster headaches eats a few (like a dozen at a time) morning glory seeds and finds it quite effective, cheap, and readily available. No legal issues, and the added benefit of being "natural/organic" which makes some people more comfortable, for some odd reason....than they might be eating strange research chemicals.

Which just goes to show you why the naturalistic fallacy is, well, a fallacy - ergolines are rarely, if ever, used for the treatment of migraines or parkinsonism anymore because of the risk of cardiac fibrosis due to 5HT2B agonism.

Granted, if those cluster headaches only appear in phases every few months or so then I doubt the LSA is going to cause any significant damage, but it is still odd to assume that a mycotoxin* would be safer than a triptan-type drug produced by "Big Pharma" (i.e. a company that probably wants to avoid having to pay billions of dollars in legal settlements like Wyeth had to after thousands of people got cardiac fibrosis from Fen-Phen).

* while morning glory is indeed a plant, the psychoactive LSA in it is produced by endophytes, i.e. symbiotic fungi living within the plant
 
My ex-girlfriend was able to cure a migraine that she's had for a few years now with psychedelics, but the cure only lasted 3-4 days and then the migraine would come back. It's worth a shot though.

That is normal, it should then be taken again - after a few times it should break a cycle of migraines for much longer though.


(I want to edit, but I'm on my phone)
She said she took amitryptiline (I'm not sure how to spell it) when she was younger but it didn't help. We don't know the actual diagnose, we assume it isn't migraine or at least not to the degree her sister has. She's fine with the idea of having drugs into her system as long as she can function and think normally.

amitryptiline is not a triptan and may not be comparable to triptans or something like LSD, even if vasoactive effects via serotonergic activity is part of how effects are mediated. Also it is meant to prevent, which is also different from say injecting sumatriptan to stave off an attack, or breaking a cycle for much longer with something like LSD.
There is sumatriptan in tablets but I'm not sure if they are close to as effective as IM, and your gf would not be the first to have an aversion to injecting.

My dad used to have cluster headaches, and the most effective treatment turned out to be an oxygen tank (Sumatriptan did help, but the attacks were so sudden and intense that oral just didn't hit him fast enough, and he didn't have the stomach to inject it IM) and generally avoiding histamine-rich food duringthose days.

Anyway, psychedelics work for migraines because they are serotonin agonists and thus vasoconstrictors... as are modern "triptan"-type migraine meds which are actually just tryptamines that are more selective for specific 5HT1 receptors. If you look at the molecular structure of sumatriptan you'll see that it's actually an analog of DMT. So if the triptans didn't do enough for her, I would not necessarily expect any wonders from psychedelics.

Yes and effects on the trigeminal system which may not be comparable. Sumatriptan is supposed to work in 96% of cases if injected to stave off an attack, but I'm not sure if it is as effective in breaking a cycle and providing long term relief? For an old friend of mine, it's how he arrived at LSD when he was on sumatriptan. I think he was enthousiastic about it, but of course discovering you love LSD is great in other ways ;)

Which just goes to show you why the naturalistic fallacy is, well, a fallacy - ergolines are rarely, if ever, used for the treatment of migraines or parkinsonism anymore because of the risk of cardiac fibrosis due to 5HT2B agonism.

Granted, if those cluster headaches only appear in phases every few months or so then I doubt the LSA is going to cause any significant damage, but it is still odd to assume that a mycotoxin* would be safer than a triptan-type drug produced by "Big Pharma" (i.e. a company that probably wants to avoid having to pay billions of dollars in legal settlements like Wyeth had to after thousands of people got cardiac fibrosis from Fen-Phen).

* while morning glory is indeed a plant, the psychoactive LSA in it is produced by endophytes, i.e. symbiotic fungi living within the plant

A lot of this was covered already: if it turns out effective you would need such low doses of either LSD, LSA, (or methysergide for that matter) and - especially this: - so infrequently that I don't understand why it would be considered irresponsible even with the cardiac / pulmonary fibrosis in mind.

Methysergide was used as prophylaxis, which means taking it regularly which is a problem with 5-HT2B agents - just like it is with fen-phen. Messes with the development of tissues. The same is not known for occasional use. I am guessing if methysergide could be used effectively to break cycles for long periods, they would have done that and the problems could have been avoided.

Don't try to rationalize considerations of Big Pharma or what they are willing to risk to just keep pushing and marketing something (see Seroxat, and how it's not offered in low dosages necessary to safely taper so that you don't lose it completely), also it's not a matter of safer: as we have both already said sumatriptan has a bit different pharmacology.
I don't like the vasoconstriction of LSA at 'psychedelic' dosages, but I don't think it's safer or unsafer than psilocin or LSD. Which should be safe enough, and I don't want to repeat myself, when you just take it to break a cycle rather than considerable doses say daily, as a prophylaxis... if there is the slight unsafety of occasionally taking a 5-HT2B agent, perhaps - if it is true that nothing else works close to that effective for breaking a cycle for months - that is worth it. Of course up to everyone to decide for themselves, but if people drop by the dozen from LSD and mushrooms from cardiac fibrosis like from fenphen, it is an incredible thing to overlook - although I admit not out of the question that it increases your odds more mildly.
 
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there was a documentary where someone was treating cluster headaches with psilocybin and it seemed to work pretty effectively. I haven't seen any anything about dosage and idk how credible the documentary was but it's worth a google.
 
Not my fallacy, most of my favorite compounds are synthetic and nature offers me no replacement for my beloved amphetamine and valium script.

Nevertheless, I am unaware of LSA or methylergometrine causing fibrosis. Source?

Which just goes to show you why the naturalistic fallacy is, well, a fallacy - ergolines are rarely, if ever, used for the treatment of migraines or parkinsonism anymore because of the risk of cardiac fibrosis due to 5HT2B agonism.

Granted, if those cluster headaches only appear in phases every few months or so then I doubt the LSA is going to cause any significant damage, but it is still odd to assume that a mycotoxin* would be safer than a triptan-type drug produced by "Big Pharma" (i.e. a company that probably wants to avoid having to pay billions of dollars in legal settlements like Wyeth had to after thousands of people got cardiac fibrosis from Fen-Phen).

* while morning glory is indeed a plant, the psychoactive LSA in it is produced by endophytes, i.e. symbiotic fungi living within the plant
 
Unfortunately pKi of 5-HT2B which would say something about that potential for LSA was left out of this study:
https://psilosybiini.info/paperit/A...ng assay approaches (Paulke et al., 2013).pdf

And I can't find anything else on it.

LSA is unsurprisingly found to be pretty shitty as a psychedelic in pharmacological terms, while it does a lot of other stuff on the side.

Methylergometrine is an active metabolite of methysergide responsible for its therapeutic effects mediated by 5-HT2C and 5-HT2B activity. It being more efficacious on 2B means it's also the one responsible for any fibrosis. As always the risk of fibrosis will be a function of efficacy, dosage, frequency of administration, you know the story. It's not all fenphen, there can be weaker versions of that... the stronger the effects on 2B the less often you could take it / the less hours per week/month it would be 'safe' to have in your body.
 
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