Preventing/reducing opiate tolerance
- Thread starter phr
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jasoncrest
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- Sep 15, 2003
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phrozen said:
Yes please!
I would be very interested in hearing reports of people successfully reducing (removing?) their opiate tolerance either with DXM or low dose antagonists......
klowns
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dear good people
I SUCCESFULLY use dxm every day in small doses to prevent tolerance from building to my pain pills, and occasional pods/seeds. now let me see
i have been on opiates around ten years, but 4-5 years of CONSISTENT every day use of hydrocodone, and dxm. now, not ONCE in these years have i EVER asked my doctor to up my dose, (rather surprising to him i believe) and i still get EXCELLETN analgesia from just 1 7.5/325 hydrocodone a dose. sure i take mroe to get high every once in a while. but i dont actualy need more. and when i go on a binge and take a bunch, and run out on thursday, i cant get my pills till monday..............well when monday rolls around, i take ONE pill, smoke weed 15 minutes later and i am still STRAIGHT FUCKED UP NODDING no joke. and no i am not a lightweight, i just dont like to run out of meds and be in withdrawal. idealy, 150-300 mg would be my choice of dose for the whole day, but alas, i cant get anyone to fuckign script me that much.
i take anywhere from 30-120 mg dxm in the morning. i find polystyrex works better than bromide, it lasts all day, and it wont cause a sharp spike in psychoactive effects. (i wouldnt feel them anyways i use to drink 4 bottles of tussin a day for about 6 years and i had to go to serious rehab for that addiction). i havent fried out on it in almost exactly oen year. this drug IS a miracale drug, and no i wouldnt call it toxic to the brain. i would say it HELPS THE BRAIN, i mean, it is basicaly useful in EVERY sort of addiction, not just opiates, it can prevent tolerance to ALL kinds of drugs like caffeine nicotine amps, i mean ALL MANNER of drugs.
all the people i know who heavily abused dissociatives are now off them and are some of the most intelligent people i know.
olneys is OUT THE FUCKING WINDOW come one now people. if wedMD calls DXM a "Co-Analgesic", well fuck thats good enough for me. it also greatly reduces fybromyalgia pain even by itself, and if i take grapefruit juice first then a small dose of dex when i have NO pain meds, it actualy gives me SIGNIFICANT wd relief AND pain relief.
look more into these drugs before you bash them anyone, please, because i believe them to be miracle drugs.
and ketamine, is the safest of the dissociateves anyways, just for your information. even when all that olneys shit was going around, they said PCP was most likely to cause it, followed by dxm, followeed by ketamine. i have also have ++++ psy experiences on K.
show me any real evidence that the shit is hard on the brain any ill listen. but even if it is miniscualy bad for you............its either that, or a never ending skyrocketing opiate tolerance.............hummmm.....hard descision
peace
I SUCCESFULLY use dxm every day in small doses to prevent tolerance from building to my pain pills, and occasional pods/seeds. now let me see
i have been on opiates around ten years, but 4-5 years of CONSISTENT every day use of hydrocodone, and dxm. now, not ONCE in these years have i EVER asked my doctor to up my dose, (rather surprising to him i believe) and i still get EXCELLETN analgesia from just 1 7.5/325 hydrocodone a dose. sure i take mroe to get high every once in a while. but i dont actualy need more. and when i go on a binge and take a bunch, and run out on thursday, i cant get my pills till monday..............well when monday rolls around, i take ONE pill, smoke weed 15 minutes later and i am still STRAIGHT FUCKED UP NODDING no joke. and no i am not a lightweight, i just dont like to run out of meds and be in withdrawal. idealy, 150-300 mg would be my choice of dose for the whole day, but alas, i cant get anyone to fuckign script me that much.
i take anywhere from 30-120 mg dxm in the morning. i find polystyrex works better than bromide, it lasts all day, and it wont cause a sharp spike in psychoactive effects. (i wouldnt feel them anyways i use to drink 4 bottles of tussin a day for about 6 years and i had to go to serious rehab for that addiction). i havent fried out on it in almost exactly oen year. this drug IS a miracale drug, and no i wouldnt call it toxic to the brain. i would say it HELPS THE BRAIN, i mean, it is basicaly useful in EVERY sort of addiction, not just opiates, it can prevent tolerance to ALL kinds of drugs like caffeine nicotine amps, i mean ALL MANNER of drugs.
all the people i know who heavily abused dissociatives are now off them and are some of the most intelligent people i know.
olneys is OUT THE FUCKING WINDOW come one now people. if wedMD calls DXM a "Co-Analgesic", well fuck thats good enough for me. it also greatly reduces fybromyalgia pain even by itself, and if i take grapefruit juice first then a small dose of dex when i have NO pain meds, it actualy gives me SIGNIFICANT wd relief AND pain relief.
look more into these drugs before you bash them anyone, please, because i believe them to be miracle drugs.
and ketamine, is the safest of the dissociateves anyways, just for your information. even when all that olneys shit was going around, they said PCP was most likely to cause it, followed by dxm, followeed by ketamine. i have also have ++++ psy experiences on K.
show me any real evidence that the shit is hard on the brain any ill listen. but even if it is miniscualy bad for you............its either that, or a never ending skyrocketing opiate tolerance.............hummmm.....hard descision
peace
diacetyldeath
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2005
- Messages
- 329
To answer phrozen's query:
Yes, I did successfully use ultra-low-dose antagonist therapy to lower my opioid tolerance during my heroin habit. However (obviously):
A) I am one person, hardly a statistically relevant sample;
B) Heroin is hardly a substance with a constant purity or even dose volume; I made very little effort to standardize my dosage mostly because I knew that it would do little good. The only "measurement" I performed during this phase was eyeballing the spoon before adding water and judging whether I needed to add another 1/2 - 1 bag or not.
C) In spite of B), my tolerance was reduced a relatively significant amount; I went from doing approx. 25 bags/day to 9-12 bags/day without any subjective change in effect. Even if the bags were on an upwards trend in terms of volume AND purity (unlikely, considering my luck, but we'll consider it anyway), we are talking about a 50% cost reduction for the same subjective effects.
D) Placebo effect. I merely mention it here for completeness; I don't know how much more or less susceptible I am to it than anyone else. However, I do know it plays a comparatively huge role in opioid dependency than in any of my other life experiences -- anyone who has felt their withdrawal symptoms virtually disappear the moment their dealer handed them a few bundles (even if you were an hour+ away from actually ingesting it) knows what I'm talking about.
E) Despite another poster's opinion, it is *not* easy to get a doctor to zip you off a Rx for naloxone or naltrexone. The level of opiophobia in this country (ridiculous as it is when we're looking at millennia of evidence that opioids offer absolutely superior pain management) has apparently risen to the point that, merely due to their ASSOCIATION with opioids, doctors are leery about prescribing them. It is possible to order Naltrexone via the Internet in its anti-alcohol-abuse formulation; however, its absurd price when compared to generic IV naloxone and questions as to its safety for IV prep kept me from doing so. I would be happy to "restart" this experiment in my current course of methadone maintenance therapy (with much more controlled circumstances, obviously, given absolutely equivalent day-to-day dosage and relatively similar dosing times) if I could find a source of Naltrexone (Naloxone has horrible oral bioavailability and a very short half-life -- I'm not about to go fucking up my veins again just to get a few micrograms of naloxone into my bloodstream every hour).
RE: NMDA antagonists -- I forgot this proposed method of potentiation in the new thread I started tonight, but I did attempt it for a short time before deciding I was experiencing no appreciable effects. The bits and pieces of stories I've heard about people having any success at all with NMDA antagonists and opioid tolerance have all seemed to indicate to me that it's an effective way to prevent the initial formation of opioid tolerance (if NMDA antagonist therapy is begun at the same time as opioid therapy at baseline opioid tolerance), but has little to no effect on preventing the increase of tolerance (or causing the attenuation of tolerance) if the individual is already opioid-tolerant when he begins NMDA antagonist therapy. However, nearly all of the anecdotal material I've heard on the subject has involved various DXM dosage strategies; I've heard relatively very few accounts concerning Ketamine and none concerning PCP, let alone some of the novel substances mentioned in this thread.
I don't pretend to know as much about NMDA antagonist neurotoxicity as some of the posters here; however, I do recall reading several decisive and well-cited claims during the above period of initial interest that humans are not at risk for Olney's lesions at all. Furthermore, I recall reading other well-cited claims that, of the NMDA antagonists DXM, PCP and Ketamine, Ketamine is by far the safest with respect to neurotoxicity. This would have been in late 2005, so any material published since then would be new to me.
Of course, I am a methadone maintenance patient, so I am somewhat interested in the notion of NMDA antagonist toxicity in general! But, then again, until I A) put away enough money to comfortably move to a more rational country like Canada or the UK where the prescription of diacetylmorphine is "on-label" for opioid dependence; B) put away enough money to (comfortably; VERY comfortably) attempt the 4-6 weeks of vacation/potentially unpaid absence from my place of employment and the all-too-possible job-searching period thereafter required to successfully stop taking Methadone after a lengthy tapering period; C) Put away enough money and gather enough faith (I've heard too many mixed reports) for Ibogaine treatment; or D) There is a sudden surge in intellectual rationality worldwide and one or more drugs are released on-label for opioid dependence that are exclusive mu1 agonists, or tolerance-reducing full mu agonists to be taken until withdrawal symptoms become insignificant due to greatly reduced dependence, or some other miracle substance; there wouldn't be anything anyone could do to take me off Methadone unless they had an equivalently-dosed substitution opioid lined up right behind it.
Speaking of Methadone, I have yet to do very much research on the subject (perhaps I fear what I might learn), but I'm somewhat confused as to how prescribing physicians expect a dependent patient to stabilize on a given dose of Methadone for a period of use that could last into the decades. Unless the delta/NMDA antagonism really is preventing additional tolerance, long-term MMT patients are bound to eventually need dose increases -- I can accept, maybe, that the much lengthier half-life would reduce the rate at which tolerance would normally increase, but unless delta/NMDA antagonism is decisively proven to prevent additional opioid tolerance from developing, I'm a bit cautious of expecting MMT to effectively "pause" my opioid dependency problems until I've built up the resources I require to deal with it on my own terms (I definitely want to return to as close to baseline tolerance that my forever-altered brain chemistry can achieve at some point in the moderate future -- it's naive and irresponsible to believe that I'll never need significant pain management again in my lifetime, and I know that the opiophobia phenomenon already has doctors and even surgeons keeping a nervous eye on how many narcotics they're pushing into their patients each year. God knows it'd have to be an especially intelligent, individualistic physician, highly-educated on the topics of neurochemistry and neuropharmacology that would prescribe an analgesic dose of a narcotic for anything moderately to severely painful (trauma, heart surgery, ortho, cancer, MS, etc., etc.) given a daily dose of 110mg Methadone. But that's neither here nor there.
Definitely an interesting topic. I do hope we see more research on these ideas from the pharmaceutical industry... thankfully they're starting to see that the money they'd theoretically lose in sheer dosage from their narcotic patients could easily be regained by newly patented tolerance/dependence-attenuating narcotics.
Yes, I did successfully use ultra-low-dose antagonist therapy to lower my opioid tolerance during my heroin habit. However (obviously):
A) I am one person, hardly a statistically relevant sample;
B) Heroin is hardly a substance with a constant purity or even dose volume; I made very little effort to standardize my dosage mostly because I knew that it would do little good. The only "measurement" I performed during this phase was eyeballing the spoon before adding water and judging whether I needed to add another 1/2 - 1 bag or not.
C) In spite of B), my tolerance was reduced a relatively significant amount; I went from doing approx. 25 bags/day to 9-12 bags/day without any subjective change in effect. Even if the bags were on an upwards trend in terms of volume AND purity (unlikely, considering my luck, but we'll consider it anyway), we are talking about a 50% cost reduction for the same subjective effects.
D) Placebo effect. I merely mention it here for completeness; I don't know how much more or less susceptible I am to it than anyone else. However, I do know it plays a comparatively huge role in opioid dependency than in any of my other life experiences -- anyone who has felt their withdrawal symptoms virtually disappear the moment their dealer handed them a few bundles (even if you were an hour+ away from actually ingesting it) knows what I'm talking about.
E) Despite another poster's opinion, it is *not* easy to get a doctor to zip you off a Rx for naloxone or naltrexone. The level of opiophobia in this country (ridiculous as it is when we're looking at millennia of evidence that opioids offer absolutely superior pain management) has apparently risen to the point that, merely due to their ASSOCIATION with opioids, doctors are leery about prescribing them. It is possible to order Naltrexone via the Internet in its anti-alcohol-abuse formulation; however, its absurd price when compared to generic IV naloxone and questions as to its safety for IV prep kept me from doing so. I would be happy to "restart" this experiment in my current course of methadone maintenance therapy (with much more controlled circumstances, obviously, given absolutely equivalent day-to-day dosage and relatively similar dosing times) if I could find a source of Naltrexone (Naloxone has horrible oral bioavailability and a very short half-life -- I'm not about to go fucking up my veins again just to get a few micrograms of naloxone into my bloodstream every hour).
RE: NMDA antagonists -- I forgot this proposed method of potentiation in the new thread I started tonight, but I did attempt it for a short time before deciding I was experiencing no appreciable effects. The bits and pieces of stories I've heard about people having any success at all with NMDA antagonists and opioid tolerance have all seemed to indicate to me that it's an effective way to prevent the initial formation of opioid tolerance (if NMDA antagonist therapy is begun at the same time as opioid therapy at baseline opioid tolerance), but has little to no effect on preventing the increase of tolerance (or causing the attenuation of tolerance) if the individual is already opioid-tolerant when he begins NMDA antagonist therapy. However, nearly all of the anecdotal material I've heard on the subject has involved various DXM dosage strategies; I've heard relatively very few accounts concerning Ketamine and none concerning PCP, let alone some of the novel substances mentioned in this thread.
I don't pretend to know as much about NMDA antagonist neurotoxicity as some of the posters here; however, I do recall reading several decisive and well-cited claims during the above period of initial interest that humans are not at risk for Olney's lesions at all. Furthermore, I recall reading other well-cited claims that, of the NMDA antagonists DXM, PCP and Ketamine, Ketamine is by far the safest with respect to neurotoxicity. This would have been in late 2005, so any material published since then would be new to me.
Of course, I am a methadone maintenance patient, so I am somewhat interested in the notion of NMDA antagonist toxicity in general! But, then again, until I A) put away enough money to comfortably move to a more rational country like Canada or the UK where the prescription of diacetylmorphine is "on-label" for opioid dependence; B) put away enough money to (comfortably; VERY comfortably) attempt the 4-6 weeks of vacation/potentially unpaid absence from my place of employment and the all-too-possible job-searching period thereafter required to successfully stop taking Methadone after a lengthy tapering period; C) Put away enough money and gather enough faith (I've heard too many mixed reports) for Ibogaine treatment; or D) There is a sudden surge in intellectual rationality worldwide and one or more drugs are released on-label for opioid dependence that are exclusive mu1 agonists, or tolerance-reducing full mu agonists to be taken until withdrawal symptoms become insignificant due to greatly reduced dependence, or some other miracle substance; there wouldn't be anything anyone could do to take me off Methadone unless they had an equivalently-dosed substitution opioid lined up right behind it.
Speaking of Methadone, I have yet to do very much research on the subject (perhaps I fear what I might learn), but I'm somewhat confused as to how prescribing physicians expect a dependent patient to stabilize on a given dose of Methadone for a period of use that could last into the decades. Unless the delta/NMDA antagonism really is preventing additional tolerance, long-term MMT patients are bound to eventually need dose increases -- I can accept, maybe, that the much lengthier half-life would reduce the rate at which tolerance would normally increase, but unless delta/NMDA antagonism is decisively proven to prevent additional opioid tolerance from developing, I'm a bit cautious of expecting MMT to effectively "pause" my opioid dependency problems until I've built up the resources I require to deal with it on my own terms (I definitely want to return to as close to baseline tolerance that my forever-altered brain chemistry can achieve at some point in the moderate future -- it's naive and irresponsible to believe that I'll never need significant pain management again in my lifetime, and I know that the opiophobia phenomenon already has doctors and even surgeons keeping a nervous eye on how many narcotics they're pushing into their patients each year. God knows it'd have to be an especially intelligent, individualistic physician, highly-educated on the topics of neurochemistry and neuropharmacology that would prescribe an analgesic dose of a narcotic for anything moderately to severely painful (trauma, heart surgery, ortho, cancer, MS, etc., etc.) given a daily dose of 110mg Methadone. But that's neither here nor there.
Definitely an interesting topic. I do hope we see more research on these ideas from the pharmaceutical industry... thankfully they're starting to see that the money they'd theoretically lose in sheer dosage from their narcotic patients could easily be regained by newly patented tolerance/dependence-attenuating narcotics.