Pre-Nups

[CoastTwoCoast]

I will never get married, and I am completely honest to guys and they try and try,, they jut can't get it through their heads I will never get married

I understand that. It's funny how guys push marriage and children when you don't want it. That's something you have to see eye to eye on or it won't work.

 

[pokepoke420]

Thank you everyone for your responses. It's a tad more difficult because she is not a citizen of the country, and in order for us to proceed with our lives marriage is kind of the only option. We are planning to buy a home and have children, but it is difficult not being a citizen for her. She cannot get a job in the states in the field she graduated university in, and it's been a cluster fuck to say the least. Thank you again.

 

[zephyr]

How about thinking about this from a different angle.

You have all this materialistic stuff that you worked hard for. Yet you also seem to want this woman to commit to you, move to your country, bear your children and not be able to follow her career path like she could without you.

What is more important to you- being with this woman as a married couple or guarding your amassed wealth against loss?


You gotta realise that when she does marry you and move in, bear your kids and support you- you have all your things and all your family and friends plus a wife and kids.

Meanwhile she has already made sacrifices of her own to be with you. If she can do that for you then why cant you do the same for her? Cant you trust her like she would have shown she trusts and values you?


You do realise that you have to factor in her potential loss of earnings and costs incurred by her to be with you should she do that and factor that in to compensate her.

Are you really that well off?

Pre nups are subject to many stupid clauses in the astates but in Australia mean pretty much fuck all as all divorces are no fault and combined property is split equally if not able to be done percentage wise and no individual pre existing assets are up for grabs. Superannuation is though.


Id say dont get married. Explore other options. Maybe move to her country.

 

[JessFR]

I doubt there are other options. People don't realize just how difficult just moving country because of no more than a desire too is. Pretty much every country in the world won't let you stay unless someone locally has reason to need you there. Generally either marriage or occupation.

So i don't know but I doubt that's an option either. And with the EU in danger, not to mention Brexit, a consequence ive seen few consider will be that moving and living in another country indefinitely because you simply want to will become far more infeasible for a lot more people.

I don't know maybe there is another option, but it's unlikely.

For most people outside of marriage and occupation, both of which require it be started by someone in the other country, there little feasible way to just move to any particular country and stay indefinitely with no other connection there.

If you were British youd have had the whole EU to go an live, and for the time being I think you still can. But in the long term that is very unlikely to be the case anymore. No matter your opinion on the EU politically, that's the reality of the situation.

Knowing now this information, I'd now recommend giving serious consideration to deciding not to get a prenuptial. It was different before I knew she'd be moving to another country. But now that I do I think it puts you in a poor position to ask for one. You can still try of course. I still think ultimately this should be openly and honestly discussed between the two of you until and agreement can be found. But with this new information I now think your position is considerably weaker. It depends of course on if she actually wants to move. If she does it improves your position.

Obviously I don't think you should treat this kind of thing as a debate devoid of the kind of consideration and compromises required in a relationship. But it's not something that's irrelevant either. Ideally both partners should strive to be fair on the other. And depending on if she wants to move or not, it changes how fair your desired outcome is.

 

[SamanthaB]

Dear PokePoke,

I find it interesting that you did not bother to mention that she was going to be moving to the States (or some unspecified country to wherever you are from wherever she is). Do you think you could fill us in on what the circumstances of this relationship are - where you are located, where you met, how long you have known her, what country she is coming from, how often you have seen her in person, etc. I get the sneaking suspicion that there is a lot you are not telling us that would have changed many of our responses had we had ALL the facts. It seems from what you said that she has to marry someone if she wants to come here to the States (or wherever you are). That may or not be a red flag here. But, we cannot know that unless you fill us in on the details. If you do not want to share any of this information with us that is your choice, but I would consult an attorney about your situation involving her, including the possible prenup, before you get yourself into something you may regret.

 

[Runningfox]

I have no desire to label anyone's opinions on this matter as Stupid, Idiotic or Crap ; the OP wanted to know ppls opinions
Here's mine : there is nothing wrong with protecting Both parties' interests by having a pre-nup (assuming it would protect Both parties).

Realistically almost nobody enters any relationship or marriage Intending that the union will fail; yet realistically Many many many relationships n marriages fail.

I wouldn't have been insulted nor would my self esteem had taken a hit had either of my spouses asked that we enter into a prenuptial agreement protecting Both parties financial interests/ property of long and meaningful posession. In fact I wish we'd had one In my first marriage ; the spouse retained ownership of many things that were heirlooms of my family's longtime possession. And yes they were court ordered to be returned to me but that didnt make it happen.

Either way. Be realistic.
If one party refuses this VERY sensible proposal. ...... i honestly recommend you don't make the Other Proposal
Lots of couples live together n don't get married. Many of them quite happily. And with far less Legal and financial / material warfare when they do (if they happen to eventually ) split up.

People need to get over themselves! Howwwwww much of life's events do individuals see Only as a reflection of tjem

 

[Runningfox]

That was not supposed to post yet.....

....how much some ppl see Everything as a reflection of themselves? For ex the OP thinks hey maybe a pre-nup. ..... the partner is obviously angry and sees this as a Slight . How? What does it hurt? Unless the wording in it states that the partner is "Of no value to the relationship " or that OP "feels they may do Better one day..."
See what I mean ? The partner is very likely Imagining that a scenario like this is what's Behind the idea. As if OPs idea / concerns on this topic simply MUST BE a reflection of the partner.

Have some self assurance people. Have some self esteem.
Propose this, propose that. Bottom line if the situation is an improper balance of power, it's not going to be a happy relationship for anyone.

It must be an Equal balance of power.

 

[Runningfox]

Mmm, no. No that is not smart at all unless you want this relationship to fall apart before you even have the chance for it to end in divorce. You did read the whole post right?

She clearly already isn't a fan of the prenup. Going further along with it behind her back could easily make things a whole lot worse.

Oh, and word of advise. Generally not a good idea in a relationship to plan to get your partner to do something you know they don't want to do without involving them until most of the work is done. They will realize the truth, which is that it means you have no respect for how they feel. How could you when you so disregard it that you've already assumed you will get them to do what you want with absolutely no consideration at all that you might do what they want?

If you want a prenup, by all means continue trying to explain that to her if you feel she doesn't really understand your reasons. But don't be deceptive, don't be manipulative, and be open to their opinions too.

That's the only way a relationship between two people who don't always agree on everything can work.

Either partner going behind the others back is a bad idea unless it's secretly planning their bday gift or etc

However you point out that OP asking
for further discussion of a pre-nup when partner has already expeessed dislike for the idea, is showing that they dont respect their partners feelings

But Isn't the partner NOT respecting OPs feelings by refusing to sign? Again refer to my above post as to why/ how this is something much like choosing the home a married couple will live in; it should protect both parties and both parties should be comfortable with it or find another solution . Like a compromise of sorts ( an example: the pre-nup can be stated however they want. It can say simply that what each party Brought to the marriage stays the possession of each party should the marriage end, but that wealth or items or property Attained *Jointly* during the marriage would be a shared there for split asset should the marriage end. There can be alllllll kinds of stipulations. Let's say theres a clause stating that if, During the marriage, one party Inherits wealth or property from relatives / friends they were in touch with prior to the marriage and that the inheritance itself names in legal terms simply the Party, not the spouse, by name, then that could be regarded as a solely owned assett upon (the Event of ) a divorce.

It doesn't need to be such a bone of contention for couples. It can be a very healthy and regular Agreed Upon compromise, if one partner really isn't as you Stated a "fan" of the idea. It can be worded however the couple agrees to word it, protecting each of them.

If that compromise sucks, there are plenty of other compromises they could come up with including agreeing not to marry therefore not having to deal with the issue of mine/ yours/ ours. (At least to perhaps a lesser degree the law does not see so many things as Shared assets if the couple is not legally married).

Balance of power is key I think
Equality. Not one person Demanding anything. Not the other person simply Shutting down ideas they may not like.
Respect for one another simply does not hold up when there's a radical imbalance of power.
That's my opinion (twice married one divorced no pre-nup experience but Lots of experience petitioning courts to file agreed upon documents. )

 

[JessFR]

I'll address more of the post later when I have more time to read it properly, but I'd just like to quickly say.

However you point out that OP asking
for further discussion of a pre-nup when partner has already expeessed dislike for the idea, is showing that they dont respect their partners feelings

I said nothing of the sort. I said going to a lawyer and planning to have a prenup eventually signed when you already know they don't like the idea is disrespecting their feelings. I said the respectful option is that you should continue discussion not that you shouldn't. I said what you should definitely not do is pre-plan for an outcome in your behavior by say, going to a lawyer without their even knowing. Very different

 

[Runningfox]

Dear PokePoke,

I find it interesting that you did not bother to mention that she was going to be moving to the States (or some unspecified country to wherever you are from wherever she is). Do you think you could fill us in on what the circumstances of this relationship are - where you are located, where you met, how long you have known her, what country she is coming from, how often you have seen her in person, etc. I get the sneaking suspicion that there is a lot you are not telling us that would have changed many of our responses had we had ALL the facts. It seems from what you said that she has to marry someone if she wants to come here to the States (or wherever you are). That may or not be a red flag here. But, we cannot know that unless you fill us in on the details. If you do not want to share any of this information with us that is your choice, but I would consult an attorney about your situation involving her, including the possible prenup, before you get yourself into something you may regret.

Or maybe they're both In LOVE and she would be giving up both the possibility of a job in her field and-- say --some other Big Deals such as her lifelong country of origin/ family nearby / perhaps land or a home or other assets left to her by family?

We just dunno.
I feel badly like -- sorry but I do -- like the females in this thread this far have Mostly jumped on the OPs back, been snide in some places , Taken the part of the potential fiance AGAINST the OP and some now even think .... what are you thinking? Gold digger ? Ticket to the good old USA ?

as you state we don't know details.
My position remains as stated , regardless 'of learning that the fiance is not of the OPs country of origin or locale. Maybe even more strongly I feel BOTH PARTIES interests--- financial / material and Emotional-- must all be strongly considered and Agreed Upon , (I think in writing , court-documents ) before a marriage should take place.

But awwwww heck
Some folks get married without EVER even discussing what one another's life goals are so.....
To each (couple) their own.

 

[JessFR]

Speaking only for myself. While it's true I'm female and am fairly opposed to prenups as a concept, I think I've been pretty fair with the OP. I didn't say no one should get one or that they're always wrong. Just that I don't like them and so understand why his fiance might not, and that I think they need to discuss it together to figure out a choice they can both be happy with.

I realize you probably weren't talking about me specifically but I wanted to emphasize that.

That the fiance will be moving to the OPs country however significantly changes things and it's now very hard to say much without knowing more specifics.

As you said, we just don't know. But it's possible now that the OP could already be in a powerful position that could make this relationship quite unbalanced and adding a prenups could just make it more so. It all depends on what the both of them want, and without knowing that it's hard to say anything now..

But some advice still remains the same. Such as that assuming this is a marriage for love, you both need to talk to each other and work it out.

I think in a relationship it's important for both parties to prioritize the other parties desires. Generally so long as both sides do so, it balances out. Point is that both sides need to be open to compromise and changing their minds..

I'll admit, knowing now that this involves a long distance relationship where the fiance would move to the OPs country. It makes me reluctant to give any advice beyond very general suggestions because it's quite likely now that there is a power imbalance going on. For one side or the other. And that imbalance needs serious consideration when taken in the context of potentially asking for more power or giving up power.

I'd want to know which countries are involved, what the fiance thinks about moving. Roughly how much both parties are worth. And the dynamics of how the relationship has functioned so far.

Obviously none of that is my business but without knowing it I for one am reluctant to give any advice of any more specificity.

 

[pokepoke420]

To be fair, I didn't know it was necessary to delve too deeply into the details since it was kind of a... how do you feel type question. I prefer not to post too much because I don't know who reads this exactly and if it was even someone I knew.. And to answer the question above - yes, I have made enough money since I graduated and been so blessed to be concerned.

We have been dating for a little over 2 years now. I live in the states, and she does too currently - just across the country. I'm on the west coast, her on the east. I fly 5 hours every weekend Friday night, and home Sunday night back for work.

She went to a top university in her country in South America, and she was living here abroad for a year. We met and clicked instantly. It was love at first site. She never wanted to get too involved with me because in the back of her mind, in every scenario, she was always leaving. I spent every second charming her even offering to marry her then just to keep her here. It was always met with a no. She is a good catholic girl that to be honest didn't even have sex with me until about 3 months ago for the first time and that was only because she couldn't resist anymore. She has extremely strong morals that won't allow her to accept marriage for citizenship.

Finally that day came. It was filled with tears and sadness, but life went on. I did everything I could to keep the relationship moving forward, but she worked 12-14 hour days after graduation. She worked on an extremely popular Netflix show that had her constantly working. Our contact slowly started to fade because I was frustrated with her lack of effort. We stopped talking.

3 months had passed at this point and I was still drinking myself into an oblivion depressed. None of my friends wanted to hear it, I had gone on dates, fucked girls, and was never fulfilled by the outcome(s). One morning I had just got home at 6am after a long club night. I was pretty drunk and I was really thinking about her. She seldom uses social media, but I opened my Instagram and her picture was the first one there. To me, it was a sign. I told myself stop being stubborn and reached out. She responded in 2 seconds, and from that moment forward we would talk every night until the sunrise. Three weeks later, I bought a ticket and flew down there.

When I got there it was like nothing changed. It was the most magical experience in my life. I met her family and friends who accepted and loved me instantly. I've traveled extensively in my life through 25 countries, and this was by far the best experience I have ever had in my life. While I was there, her family in the states asked her to come stay with them for a month and help them. In her culture, family is first and she went, but she decided to stay and get a student visa to give us the best chance of being together. She has a job now that she hates in a field she didn't go to University for just to give us a chance. She refuses to live with me because it's against what she believes in.

That all leads me to now which is why marriage is something that is necessary for us to be together. Our lives are kind of put on hold at the moment and we've been arguing because it's just stressful. She's stubborn and her catholic beliefs are something that I have to respect. We are both so in love with each other and I couldn't imagine spending my life with anyone else. She's all that I want - she's all that I've wanted since the day we met, but still, I can't let that love consume being rational which is why the prenup talk got brought up.

Now that all of the details are out there - does this change anything?

 

[JessFR]

OK. Thank you. Sorry to pry but without knowing the details we are making lots of assumptions. Some of which are wrong.

Knowing this now makes it much easier to give the best advice we can. I'm assuming her religious beliefs and or strong morals play a part in her opposition to prenups. Which for you is going to make it very difficult because it makes it a lot less likely that she will change her mind. Which, isn't me saying that's right or wrong, it's just my opinion based on that assumption.

Something else I'd be wondering and maybe you already know the answer. But I'd want to know exactly what risks you run if you don't get a prenup. Like what the law says in the state in which you'd likely get married. You probably already know, but if not that would be something very important to find out in case it's already an outcome you can live with.

In the end, no I'm not sure this actually does change much. But we still needed to know to know that it doesn't change much. It sounds like wanting or not wanting to live in the US doesn't play a big role here. If so that means the situation isn't that different than when we assumed there was no moving country issues at all.

Honestly I'm still kinda coming back to what I thought before. Which is that you'll just have to talk to her about it. And decide whatever can be decided.

You need to find out if you don't already know why she doesn't want a prenup. If she'd be OK with a prenup if you both jointly worked out what it would say. What risks you're taking without one.

Unfortunately, if in the end she just won't get a prenup, then it's really all up to you. I hope a more mutually beneficial solution can be worked out, but if not it all comes down to you and if you decide you want to risk it or not. It may not be an easy decision. But worst case scenario that's how I see it ending up. With you having to decide if you'll take the risk of getting married or not without a prenup. I know what I'd do, but I do stupid shit for emotional reasons all the time so I wouldn't take that as a good endorsement. I just follow my heart and go with whichever choice I think I'm least likely to regret.

For me, even if I did want and believe in a prenup, I know I'd regret not giving it a chance out of fear of something that might never happen. So no matter how it might turn out I know I'd end up getting married anyway. But you obviously gotta make a choice that's right for you. I think the important thing is to follow your heart and make sure whatever you do isn't something you'll regret..

Hopefully it won't come to that. I think an ideal solution here would be if you could both sit down and work out a prenup you would both be happy with. But if she's just not OK with doing that, then unfortunately you'll have to make a choice. Again, my recommendation is that you listen to your heart and he careful not to make a decision you'll regret.

Another reason if it were me that I'd probably still get married without one is I'd be thinking that I want this relationship to work and if I don't get married, it definitely won't. Whereas if I do get married without a prenup, it only maybe won't. But those are just my values and you might well value different things.

I honestly wish you luck and hope it all works out. But it sounds to me like you can only do what you can do. You can talk to her and try and work out a way to go forward that you're both happy with. Which I think is the ideal thing to do if you haven't already. Then, if that doesn't work out, you'll unfortunately have to make a choice that could be quite difficult.

But I don't see how else this can play out. There are those here that say things like "well if she won't sign it that's proof she'll screw you" or that you should find someone better or whatever. But I think that's all a pile of crap. And it's totally blind to how love works. Which is that it isn't rational. So I say forget that stuff.

You love her, she loves you, great. So you wanna keep trying to get married. Great. I think you gotta try and work out with her a way to do that. Find out what she feels about prenups, what her concerns are. All things you need to know to know what compromises can be made. From there, all you can do is your best to get the outcome you want. Just make sure you know what you value, so that whatever you decide is something you can live with.

Good luck man. I really hope it works out.

 

[Runningfox]

If she is a hardworking and successful lady, independent financially now as a single person , I would bet you dont have to worry too much . She'll likely be that as a married person as well.

With strong Catholic values, if she marries you, she's staying married for Good. And you won't have to worry either way.
You wanna stay married for Good?

 

[SamanthaB]

Hi Again,

Thank you for the additional details on your girlfriend and your situation. I understand why you were reluctant to share too much information.

As far as knowing all this, it does not change my mind about the original advice I gave you. You either need to work this out together or go and see a therapist and/or an attorney to settle this issue amicably. In addition, you say that she is not interested in marriage for citizenship. I find that VERY hard to believe. That does not mean she does not love or want you and that you could live happily ever after. But, the fact is, if she marries you, she will be able to get citizenship at some point. If she is not interested in discussing this and trying to work this out, it says to me that she has a financial and/or other agenda here and this does not bode well for your relationship now or in the future. This will certainly not be the only issue that comes up if you get married that you will need to deal with, talk about and figure out. Be glad that you are having the chance to deal with an important issue BEFORE you marry, so you can see how you handle them as a couple. Just remember that if you decide to marry without a pre-nup, your assets that you come into the marriage with will always be at risk. Only you can decide if you want to assume the risk and marry without one. Good luck with all this. Let us know how things turn out.

 

[TheSecondShade]

always prep for the worse and just look out for yourself