Pill(s) apparently containing PMA caused death in Newcastle recently

[phase_dancer]

No one knowingly takes PMA

Well, most educated people wouldn't, but it's incorrect to say no one knowingly would. It's been seen on this site before that some people actually prefer the effects of PMA (god knows why). One of these (Ian Hard) died from it.

That's my thought, if you're planning to screw people over to make a quick buck, why not just sell them a bunk pill

Good question. Of those who regularly seek MDMA to press, there's more than a good chance that at some point they may have to resort to something else in order to get a batch out there. As MDMA becomes hard to find, it may well be supplemented with something like PMA - to give a low MDMA dose some legs and still fool the kits - as a punter once said to me. An MDA & MDMA combo is virtually impossible to discern from a PMA & MDMA combo with presently available kits.

While most, if not all of us would think this is very silly, there are many out there who don't care what happens to someone 15 + people down the chain - that's if they are even aware of PMA being in their mixture.... but hey, so what if someone dies, it'll likely never come back on the manufacture or presser anyway 8)

IMHO, unless someone is doing it "for the cause of rescuing humanity" or other fanciful reason, money is what counts most to those synthesizing illicit drugs to sell. In such environments, quality control is more often than not given a back seat, at best.

Getting back to the question; these days, any pills that contain no actives (or amphetamine type actives) would only expect to have a short period of popularity. Word spreads. But by "watering down" subsequent batches with another active, it's much more likely the tablet will remain fashionable for longer - that is, until a death or 10.


We need to focus on WHY this is occurring. Very few producers- probably none- would make and circulate PMA or PMMA if safrole was available (to make MDMA from). But few law makers seem willing to accept that new regulations (governing the supply and availability of MDMA precursor ingredients) will result in drugs being produced that require easier to procure ingredients. As an amphetamine derivative with psychedelic qualities, PMA is first choice here.

A smart and resourceful chemist could visit a supermarket, hardware shop and liqueur store and have every thing needed to produce PMA. Anethole, starting material to PMA, is a "tougher" molecule than safrole, meaning reaction conditions could be employed that are too harsh for safrole. In other words, even a fuck up in the synthesis may still result in some useable product


This will very likely get worse. We've previously seen pills containing mixtures of MDMA with all manner of pharmaceutical and illicit drugs. Anyway I look at it, it doesn't seem there is much hope of scaring punters into stopping - at least before there are many deaths. Without proper testing being made available, it will also be unbelievably difficult to keep up with all future additives/replacements sold as pure MDMA.

So, who is to blame? There seems to be fuck all of us who are pointing the finger at the right people. Drugs may be bad, but half thought out changes to law are far, far worse. People will still take drugs regardless of the laws governing chemical availability and the impacting quality of the drugs produced, only more innocent people will die from it.

If PMA was to become widely circulated, it's very possible other drugs will also be experimented with in attempt to reduce the hyperthermia associated with PMA. I have heard talk of such things in the past. Whether this would be successful or not remains to be seen, but either way, you'd hardly call it an improvement over pills containing a known dose MDMA only.

Methoxyamfetamine is about 3 times as potent as methylenedioxyamfetamine and appears to be more toxic. At least 20 deaths worldwide have been reported to be due to PMA toxicity, some involving other drugs. PMA can produce both CNS stimulation and hallucinogenic effects. Acute toxicity primarily results in hyperthermia but there may also be “serotonin syndrome” related symptoms and some respiratory depression. Such symptoms may be produced at blood concentrations over 0.5 mg/L.

PMA concentrations in postmortem femoral blood ranged from 0.24 to 4.9 mg/L (mean 2.3 mg/L) in 6 fatalities related to PMA poisoning. Corresponding liver concentrations ranged from 1.4 to 21 mg/kg (mean 8.9 mg/kg). Other amfetamines (including metamfetamine and MDMA) were detected in 5 of the 6 cases. All cases involved hyperthermia; in some cases rhabdomyolysis and haemorrhaging were also observed [H. E. Felgate et al.,J. Anal. Toxicol.,1998, 22, 169–172.]

MDMA may not be the perfect drug for society, and definitely has dangers associated with recreational use, but compared to what will replace it, MDMA is certainly a devil we know.

 

[aunty establishment]

toerag: I thought that was an excellent post. It is definitely not easy to break through the "no drugs" stance that clubs take. However, I can tell you what RaveSafe VIC used to do which was quite effective - they made up "party packs": it's an oversized dime bag (about 7 X 10 centimetres) that contains:
1. a tri-folded leaflet with basic drug info, the major dangerous drug combos, links to erowid, bluelight and enlighten, and some simple HR stuff (correct amt of water to drink, what to do if an overdose occurs, etc).
2. a condom & lube (safe sex is a part of harm reduction too! and they make very fetching comedy hats)
3. A lollypop

These were handed out at events and some venues also kept a bowl of them on the bar. The information was phrased delicately enough that it'd be hard to suggest they were condoning drug use. Well, the baggies might have caused a few stirs, but it was really effective because they're eyecatching. You shove a baggie in someone's face at a party and they're gonna pocket it, then find it midweek when they've washed their phatties (since it's a sealed bag, they're washproof!)

Something to think about if you have the energy and/or resources. It doesn't have to be expensive but it can be hard work.

 

[K-Luva]

It would be interesting to find out what these pills are (stamp/colour). If anyone has any firm evidence, it would be good if they could make the rest of us aware of it.

 

[nige1492]

I hope an experienced and knowledgeable tester gives you some info soon, psyc0de, so you are encouraged to test. I hope they don't just say use the search engine as this is too important IMO.

 

[Fry-d-]

As far as I know the mandelin reagent is the only single test that can identify PMA. Used in combination with marquis or an extreme kit to confirm your results or identify other possible adulterants.

 

[phase_dancer]

Yes Fry-d-, mandelin will indicate PMA, although, apart from seeing the reaction described in literature, I know of only one person - a forensics worker- who has actually witnessed the reaction (using pure samples of the FB and a salt). His description was slightly different from that published in Clarkes and similar references, but the important thing to remember is that with a PMA only sample, when tested with mandelin, there is a colour change not normally seen with amphetamine/ meth or MDMA.

If PMA was present, a primary amine test would indicate it as that. If however, a rough MDMA synthesis via the peracid route was performed, anethole could simply be added to the safrole. If the ketone or freebase wasn't distilled (and the 2 ketones separated) both MDMA and PMMA would be produced . In such a case, using all currently available kits, it may appear as if only MDMA is present. This is because the darker reaction colour would dominate. With the amine tests, the PMMA would only give a result with Simons reagent, as would any MDMA present i.e. both are sec amines.

As yet there is no known reagent that reacts with PMA & PMMA and nothing else. However, if I can ever get the funding for post grad studies, I'll put to test an idea I've been researching for some time. It concerns using 2 particular compounds, and a simple procedure (affordable). There's a good chance it will distinguish various primary and secondary amines, maybe even if a mixture of these is present.

 

[Ekstasis-//7]

^^ Hey Phase could you please, please, please tell me what the colour(s) the reported reaction with Mandelin was seen when tested by this person using pure PMA salt & feebase?

So far I have read from (the now out of bussiness company due to legal proceedings from one of the owners so I heard) www.chemicalsolutions.com.au that PMA (aka 4-MA) should go green then red then brown with Mandelin. As far as I have read this is unofficial and unconfirmed and so therefore this reaction is not documented in test kit reaction charts that come with a mandelin test kit. I am most interested to hear if this is accurate or not...

I am hoping that there is some wierd reaction with Mandelin!! So far I have seen a number of pills that reacted to both primary and secondary amine tests... (different capsules I have tested always have reacted this way) it is always a little scary the first time taking one from a batch of these new pills especially when you think that this pill is probably MDxx + MDA or MDxx + byproduct from the sythesis but it is also possible the reaction was for potentially lethal MDxx + PMA (that is if Mandelin doesn't pickup PMA)!

Just say for example it is true that PMA goes green to red to brown... and you then used a very tiny scraping of a pill (which I ususally do) when testing with Mandelin so that the colour reaction of the scraping does not fill the whole drop of reagent... then if careful enough (and maybe even use a little swirling too) shouldn't you be able to make out the 2 different colour reactions taking place if MDMA and PMA where both present? eg. I would have thought that if it does goes green to red to brown this would be a hell of a lot easier to tell from say a MDxx + Ketamine or MDxx + amphetamine pill??

 

[phase_dancer]

The last time I spoke to the person in mention regarding the PMA/ Mandelin reaction, on checking his notes re the fb and picrate salt** reaction colours, he mentioned the reaction turned a pink colour but he had no mention of the brown or the green.

As there was some doubt expressed regarding the accuracy of his notes, he was going to perform the test again when time allowed. I'll raise the matter again with him when I get the chance.

**(at least that's what I remember the salt form to be - I can't locate my own notes atm)

From:

Spot Tests: A Color Chart Reference for Forensic Chemists by S.H Johns et al, (1978 ), Journal of Forensic Sciences pp 631 -649 state; (effervescence)

p-methoxyamphetamine (PMA) with mandelin reagent

green-->red--> brown

From Clarkes Analysis of drugs and poisons, 1 st & 3rd editions.

Methoxyamphetamine (PMA) is listed under the colour "green" in the Mandelin color change chart. No other colours are mentioned.

A variation to the Mandelin presumptive test

Due to the use of toxic formaldehyde gas, the following test can't be safely done at home (unless you have a fume hood). It comes from the Handbook of Drug Analysis (by Lui) and states that if TLC plates containing PMA are exposed to Formaldehyde gas + mandelin, the spots will turn a blue purple, and the addition of a drop of water will cause the colour to fade.

By comparison, according to the text, the same test done on MDMA will produce a blue-green colour, followed by a light olive colour with H2O. MDA turns a gray- tan on addition of water.

I have wondered whether some recognisable colour change may occur from using formalin with mandelin on a sample as done per current reagent tests, but as formalin contains appreciable amounts of water, it's very likely the first part of the test would not occur or be inconclusive at best.