Orlando atrocity

[spacejunk]

LIES! If that were the case you would have referred to it as a 'fiddle'

Doggone it! You done blew our cover.

there's a 'discussion' of this incident in ce&p right now: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...b-shooting-in-Orlando-FL-by-Islamic-terrorist

gm made a great post:



it is a complex issue with many factors. until i moved here i was not aware of the power of the gun lobby in u.s. politics. there are many 'ordinary' u.s. gun owners who will readily admit that they believe massacres like these are the price the u.s. pays for their freedom to own a gun.

alasdair

It's really interesting reading a european (predominantly UK i presume) take on this, compared to all the flaming in the other thread.
What's interesting to me is how little insight into how - and why - the rest of the world thinks American culture's gun fetish is simply insane.
Don't get me wrong - i hate a lot about australia - but knowing that people around me are most likely not carrying a firearm makes me feel more relaxed, secure and...free than when i'm in the US.

The USA is a an amazing country with some great things about it, but the gun thing is creepy to me. Not just creepy like "irrational fear of being randomly shot" - but just the amount of people that don't question it.

Also, this guy in Orlando wasn't a member or ISIS.

But ISIS are known to use US Military weapons. IMO the USA is more responsible for ISIS' very existence than ISIS is to blame for this nightclub massacre.

 

[BigG]

FWIW mate most of ISISs US weapons (M16s M4s, SAWs etc..) came from captured Iraqi army stores....although since the US supplied the Iraqi army you have a point...

 

[alasdairm]

Argh I can't help think that post you mention is bollocks Ali mate...

Its a global recession and many other countries own guns and don't go into their local nightclub to blow away 50 countrymen...Sweden with their militia system means almost every household has a Sig assault rifle but do you hear of this in Sweden? Nope

which is exactly why i said it is a complex issue with many factors.

alasdair

 

[BigG]

which is exactly why i said it is a complex issue with many factors.

alasdair

It doesn't seem all that complex from this side of the pond ...

 

[Vurtual]

No it seems pretty complex to me like all societies. America's history of radicalism and rebellion is little understood in this country (including by me) and i think that feeds into the individualism and distrust of government (Plutocracy is a good account of some of that history). Underneath that the 'settler' nature of the culture (like israel) and the slavery/genocide can't help (though the early bit's as much our heritage as theirs). (that probably sounds patronising to an american - i know little of it really, and i've never been there ). But america as a whole has loads of amazing aspects that don't fit the usual easy stereotype brits have of it (ie a mix of beverly hillbillies and idiocracy) on closer inspection.

 

[ponch]

It doesn't seem all that complex from this side of the pond ...

Come on man, I know its fun/cool to bash america and all that but you have opted to compare the USA with Sweden which have poverty rates of 15.1% and 3.7% respectively, its not a fair comparison at all.

 

[BecomingJulie]

[T]here are many 'ordinary' u.s. gun owners who will readily admit that they believe massacres like these are the price the u.s. pays for their freedom to own a gun.

Then might I boldly suggest that, by not giving up their guns in protest, these people are actually part of the problem?

Just the same as those who do not really believe that the world was zapped into existence over the course of six days, by a capricious psychopath who is obsessed with what we eat or draw pictures of, what we wear and who we shag, and is ready to cast us into a lake of fire for all eternity; who don't really believe that a dusty old book is the only correct way to live our lives, but do think it's a good idea not to go around murdering, raping and stealing because they wouldn't like it done to them, and that it's important to help people in need because one day they might be in need, by continuing to profess a belief in what they rationalise as a gentler version of that same sick bully, are lending ill-deserved legitimacy to the "kill the gays and the unbelievers", fire-and-brimstone hate preachers.

 

[Ceres]

IMO the USA is more responsible for ISIS' very existence than ISIS is to blame for this nightclub massacre.

quite, the root cause of a load of problems like refugee crisis, paris attacks etc is because the USA (and UK) keeps having its neo-colonialism adventures military / political / cia etc .

that is a seperate issue from a cracked up bloke in a fucked up society shooting up a nightclub though.

 

[alasdairm]

Then might I boldly suggest that, by not giving up their guns in protest, these people are actually part of the problem?

you could. they'll probably also tell you that the answer to rife gun violence in the u.s. is, of course, more guns.

check this: School District Approves Armed Teachers, Provides the Handguns

most of the rest of the world simply shakes their head at this kind of thing...

alasdair

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Come on man, I know its fun/cool to bash america and all that but you have opted to compare the USA with Sweden which have poverty rates of 15.1% and 3.7% respectively, its not a fair comparison at all.

While easy access to firearms is not an overriding black and white cause of mass killing, it is easily identifiable as a major cause and often THE major cause. In suicides alone, in the UK and most other western countries, socio-economic factors and access to lethal substances or weapons are responsible for the major numbers in suicides. In the UK, doctors, dentists and vets top the list through access to drugs. Farmers always appear in the top ten too. Guess why? They have access to shotguns.

Socio-economic factors play more part in recessive economies where more people kill themselves because of debt. But when it comes to Sandy Hook etc mass killings, the picture is clear. I heard Rubio on the radio today faffing around the subject of America having 370+ mass murders in the last God knows how long to the UK's 2 in 20 years. "Yeah well, Americas a bigger country".

Yeah. Complex.

 

[ponch]

Oh I definitely agree the ease of access and sheer amount of guns in america is fucking insane, I just thought it was a bit of an unfair comparison to make.

I've seen people on other forums trying to defend the ownership of firearms based on hypothetical situations based around the breakdown of civilisation due to long term power outage or water shortage, rather than face up to you know, stuff that is undeniably happening now.

 

[BecomingJulie]

I've seen people on other forums trying to defend the ownership of firearms based on hypothetical situations based around the breakdown of civilisation

When it comes to needing weapons to defend yourself against your neighbour, civilisation has already broken down.

I mean. The whole point of having government and laws; the legislature, the judiciary and the constabulary, is to take care of all the boring shit everybody needs (like building roads, providing schools and hospitals, making sure the food is fit to eat, controlling pollution, protecting workers' rights and so forth) so that people can get on with the stuff they want. The USA hasn't even got a National Health Service -- you are allowed to die if you can't afford to pay for your medical treatment. Mind you, I can hardly talk. The UK doesn't guarantee you a roof over your head; it's not a criminal offence to make someone homeless.

Anyway, the people of the USA are running around in fear for their lives and occasionally doing monumentally stupid things because their government has let them down big-style.

 

[MadeInChicago]

Ironically while you can't own a 9mm pistol in Britain you can legally own a Barrett .50 cal rifle (bolt action) that will bring down a helicopter from a mile away.......figure that one out.

XD, Yeah the U.S. has let us down. Manufacturing is down 70% from 10 years ago, all we have for non skilled workers/those without degrees are fast food jobs. Thats not how this country became great esp in the 1970's when we built this massive road system and tons of bridges putting people to work. Building 100 story skyscrapers and going to space. I personally think the drought in jobs and available money is a result of population control.

 

[herbavore]

I am just so discouraged. I strongly support gun control but very sadly I believe that the problem goes so much deeper than weapons that we could ban all guns tomorrow and we would still be a violent culture that allows every screwed up nutcase to envision going down in a blaze of "glory". We are a country that steeps itself 24/7 in anger, in vitriol, in paranoia, in self-righteous outrage. It fills the airwaves of talk radio. It fills the so-called news programs (which actually were news programs for at least half of my lifetime). It fills the forums on the internet and anything else that invites public comment. And before anyone comes in here and says this is " U.S. bashing", yes, I know there are other violent cultures in the world. I grew up in Nigeria. But it is irrelevant to me to compare because I am not of those cultures; I was and still am, an observer from the outside. This is my culture, like it or not. I just want it to change. And it is changing but those changes literally terrify me because if anything I think we are headed for much darker times. Just look at the coverage of Orlando--more fear mongering, more hate-fed paranoia, more polarization.

There is so much that I love about this country, so much good in the culture as well. This is why it feels so discouraging to see the direction we seem hell-bent on going.

 

[BigG]

Come on man, I know its fun/cool to bash america and all that but you have opted to compare the USA with Sweden which have poverty rates of 15.1% and 3.7% respectively, its not a fair comparison at all.

I do see your point but please dont think I'm "America bashing". I love America and the American freinds I have today are some of the sweetest kindest people you could meet.

My point is more the seeming stupidity of civilian ownership of military spec firearms like the Armalite AR15 (a favourite used in mass shootings) which are way and above what could realitically be needed for home defence. If a home defence weapon is absolutely needed then a hangun or better still a double barreled shotgun would be far more reasonable.

This plus the various loopholes in determining who can own a gun. For example buying a new weapon from a gun shop requires background checks but weapons can be given as gifts, traded privately, bought from pawn shops and gun shows without the requisite checks (AFAIK).

So please dont think I'm America bashing cos I'm not. I'm simply bashing the gun laws that from my point of view don't seem to make sense......

 

[alasdairm]

For example buying a new weapon from a gun shop requires background checks but weapons can be given as gifts, traded privately, bought from pawn shops and gun shows without the requisite checks (AFAIK).

individual state law differs to such an extent that you can't make such a general statement. my home state requires that, if neither buyer nor seller is a licensed firearms dealer, firearms transfers must be completed through a licensed dealer.

alasdair

 

[BigG]

individual state law differs to such an extent that you can't make such a general statement. my home state requires that, if neither buyer nor seller is a licensed firearms dealer, firearms transfers must be completed through a licensed dealer.

alasdair

Well I did say AFAIK.....

Thank you for the clarification though.....aren't Californian gun laws much stricter that the rest of the US though? I'm sure there is an assault rifle (or maybe just full auto?) ban and for certain there is a high capacity magazine ban. To the extent that Glock had to make special 10 round magazines for their 3rd Generation pistols just for sale in California.....

 

[zephyr]

Do nightclubs in America or anywhere that allows people to carry guns have metal detectors? A lot of clubs in Australia do as gangs carry guns and knives to keep ememy gands off their territory?

Metal detectors would be a help. There is no need for weapons in clubs.

 

[DeeDeeDrug]

Do nightclubs in America or anywhere that allows people to carry guns have metal detectors? A lot of clubs in Australia do as gangs carry guns and knives to keep ememy gands off their territory?

Metal detectors would be a help. There is no need for weapons in clubs.

You can't carry guns in any public place here.

 

[Bearlove]

"IT'S A PART OF OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS TO BEAR ARMS!!"

Can you imagine, end of your night (clubs close at 2am) - most people will be drunk / high and then this happens? I've been in a few rough raves where it kicked off and it's pretty hard to know what to do - but somebody firing a semi automatic rifle at you / dancefloor 8(.

Condolences to the families though! I do feel that IF his wife knew about this she should be jailed.