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Policy Oregon rolling back decriminalization of some drugs. Let’s go back to an utterly failed attempt?

That's true, but you'd have to be braindead to say that fentanyl has medical benefit while heroin has zero, or that cannabis has zero. The point is the DEA's scheduling is stupid, inconsistent, and ignores legitimate research that has been done both in this country and in others. If I were a doctor I would never value that over a study, even knowing that studies can be BS like these ones were.
Agreed on the DEA fucking up the scheduling of things and not looking at the comprehensive body of research. They are also biased for many reasons. But let’s assume all scheduling and not just a significant amount of it has been done based on data and not agendas

Being a doctor is not being a scientist in most cases if we ignore the MDs that conduct research at universities and other research institutions. Here we’re talking about clinicians. Clinicians are not the ones that should be looking at papers and making conclusions; especially just single or small collections of papers; someone trying to do this should look at comprehensive collections of many studies; reviews and make their decisions from there. Not a small handful of papers published or funded by a biased party (ie Purdue).

Scheduling exists to distill things down for a doctor so that they can ”plug and chug” (Act according to something akin to an SOP) and not have to digest scientific research and data and come up with their own conclusions. Clinicians that aren’t researchers should not be doing that so just crucifying Purdue and blaming it all on them because they designed their handful of studies to pitch a drug is something that should not be done. If someone is going to look at research they need to look at all of it. Not just what Purdue had their hand in.

We have a full agonist that rats self administer as if it was heroin and it’s schedule 2. Nobody with half a brain is going to think this is some non addictive safer alternative to hydrocodone etc.

And let’s give you all the benefits of the doubt, let’s say Purdue tricked everyone into thinking they invented some non addictive opioid. Ok.

Now tell me; do you seriously think it would’ve taken 20+ years to realize oxy was every bit as addictive as morphine or heroin? That’s just plain bullshit. Everyone realized what oxy was either before the game started or extremely early in the game.


But nobody hit the brakes for 20+ years because the money was flowing; in fact they stepped on the gas
 
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I got you making ad hom attacks now instead of attacking my argument you keep ducking for the 3rd time. You’re losing here and you resorting to personal attacks shows that.

I'm not here to win or lose... if you are, then I feel sorry for you.

oxy didn’t make it worse. The death of the American dream made it worse. For the 3rd time you’ve ignored that point.

I didn't ignore it, there's just no way to qualify this opinion. It would just come down to me agreeing/disagreeing which isn't a fruitful conversation to me.

And even if it could be proven, it wouldn't matter since you seem to think all research is propaganda anyway.

Do you think we’d be where we are (fentanyl) if oxy never came along?

Do you think we’d be where we are if oxy was not de facto banned?

How should I know? I don't have an alternate-reality time machine.

Oxy made the opiate addiction epidemic factually, measurably, quantifiably worse, by in large due to how the medical industry fudged data to downplay the addictiveness of it. Your hypothetical questions don't change this fact. Like... this is literally factual canon that nobody disputes. Even the right wing who are pro-business don't dispute it. So I don't know what you're on about.
 
Dude this is some classist shit 😭 if somebody doesn't want to do something (rehab in this case) that costs taxpayers money, they should be allowed to decline it. The surrounding society is not civilized, we're dehumanizing people and tossing them in a useless cycle of wasted money and time. Can you tell me how that's better than somebody getting high?

I don't care if somebody's getting high as long as it doesn't trash our public common areas, affect children, or waste resources.

Passed out in a bus shelter with a meth pipe in your hand? Nope.

Smoking crack on a train while people are commuting to work? Nope.

Ambulances and other EMS services being bogged down 24/7 by people maybe or maybe not OD'ing in the streets but we have to send EMS anyway every single time? Nope.

Violent people who are high assaulting innocent bystanders and the courts letting them off "because addiction?" Nope.

People who are this off the rails should have mandated rehab, prison time, or be sent to a mental asylum.

I honestly don't give a shit which anymore. My city looks like a ghetto now and crime is skyrocketing under progressive policy.

And btw I'm considered poor by Canadian standards so there's nothing classist about it. I support decriminalized drug use as long as it's done responsibly. If your addiction has made you go off the rails in a way that it negatively affects the surrounding society then fuck you, you are getting an intervention. Actions have consequences.
 
Would you send individual who is so drunk they have passed out in bus shelter with half-empty beer in hand to mandatory rehab or prison?
 
I don't care if somebody's getting high as long as it doesn't trash our public common areas, affect children, or waste resources.

Passed out in a bus shelter with a meth pipe in your hand? Nope.

Smoking crack on a train while people are commuting to work? Nope.

Ambulances and other EMS services being bogged down 24/7 by people maybe or maybe not OD'ing in the streets but we have to send EMS anyway every single time? Nope.

Violent people who are high assaulting innocent bystanders and the courts letting them off "because addiction?" Nope.

People who are this off the rails should have mandated rehab, prison time, or be sent to a mental asylum.

I honestly don't give a shit which anymore. My city looks like a ghetto now and crime is skyrocketing under progressive policy.

And btw I'm considered poor by Canadian standards so there's nothing classist about it. I support decriminalized drug use as long as it's done responsibly. If your addiction has made you go off the rails in a way that it negatively affects the surrounding society then fuck you, you are getting an intervention. Actions have consequences.
Bruh nobody who assaults another person while high has ever had the case dropped unless the victim was against pursuing charges. Those are some very specific situations that I doubt you've ever seen most of. Nobody smokes crack on public transport and if they did they'd be removed. And by the way, forcing people into rehab has never gotten anyone off drugs because they don't want to kick the shit. It's the very definition of "wasting resources" and you're really gonna complain about people overdosing and having ems do something about it 😭. Would you prefer they died? It's not like they woke up that morning and said "i can't wait to overdose and then feel the most embarrassed of my life just to fuck up the first responders day", have some empathy..
 
Bruh nobody who assaults another person while high has ever had the case dropped unless the victim was against pursuing charges

Nobody smokes crack on public transport and if they did they'd be removed. And by the way, forcing people into rehab has never gotten anyone off drugs because they don't want to kick the shit

None of that is true
 
None of that is true
How? You've genuinely seen people just smoking crack on a bus? I find that hard to believe. If you were assaulted, and wanted to press charges and that person was already in court, you could damnwell press charges, people don't just get off for that because the jury "feels bad for them" cause they were high, if anything thatd make their case worse.
 
Bruh nobody who assaults another person while high has ever had the case dropped unless the victim was against pursuing charges. Those are some very specific situations that I doubt you've ever seen most of. Nobody smokes crack on public transport and if they did they'd be removed. And by the way, forcing people into rehab has never gotten anyone off drugs because they don't want to kick the shit. It's the very definition of "wasting resources" and you're really gonna complain about people overdosing and having ems do something about it 😭. Would you prefer they died? It's not like they woke up that morning and said "i can't wait to overdose and then feel the most embarrassed of my life just to fuck up the first responders day", have some empathy..

You've obviously never visited Vancouver BC or Portland OR.
 
How? You've genuinely seen people just smoking crack on a bus? I find that hard to believe.
There are plenty of videos easily found, especially for people smoking fentanyl on public transit





If you were assaulted, and wanted to press charges and that person was already in court, you could damnwell press charges, people don't just get off for that because the jury "feels bad for them" cause they were high, if anything thatd make their case worse.
10+ years ago yeah, now we have soft on crime prosecutors and district attorneys in many cities/states that dismiss, drop or even refuse to press charges, even for more serious crimes, so it doesn't even make it to a trial
 
Have you been to Portland lately?

It makes Seattle look nice
I still remember seeing pictures of Seattle in the 90's and 2000's and thinking, wow what a beautiful city. Now it looks worse than Detroit. Seriously, no homeless encampments and 100's of thousands of people have fled and they are slowly but steadily tearing down all the Urban blight. It is actually turning back to nature, in many parts and the rest is like a ghost town/city. It is weird, there are deer, where abandoned crack houses were. What were once run down neighborhoods are now fields. The city is abandoned in so many areas it is creepy. They actually have a downtown that looks better than so many parts of the west coast. That ain't sayin much. You say Portland is worse?
 
None of that is true

What is ABSOLUTELY true is that you can't force a person off drugs who isn't motivated to quit for themselves. If you institutionalise someone who has no intention of stopping, all you do is take them out of circulation for while. The first thing those people do when they've completed their allotted stint in the rehab is run straight to the nearest dealer to score (and very often proceed to OD).

And in the case of street addicts in particular, they go back to the same life in the same circumstances with the same lack of any realistically attainable future and zero REASON to quit. Because what's being 'treated' is the symptom, not the core problem. Everybody is fixated on the person being 'drug free' as though that alone would magically sort them out, when more often than not the drug abuse is a reaction to other issues, not the main issue itself. Unfortunately there's neither the structure nor the will to tackle the roots of the problem. But hey, at least all those rehabs make money out of their wash-rinse-repeat clients...
 
There are plenty of videos easily found, especially for people smoking fentanyl on public transit






10+ years ago yeah, now we have soft on crime prosecutors and district attorneys in many cities/states that dismiss, drop or even refuse to press charges, even for more serious crimes, so it doesn't even make it to a trial

I stand corrected that people smoke shit on foil on transport, but how much do you want to bet they were kicked off the train or bus/at least one other person called police or the like. Even then, torturing somebody who doesn't want to quit drugs by putting them through withdrawals isn't going to get them off their drug of choice but for a week. Their life didn't get better in rehab, their old problems and dealers are still waiting for them outside. It has very few success stories. It's again, the very definition of wasting resources, because they don't want to quit. Furthermore, I don't honestly think you could cite a case in which a drug addict was let off for assaulting a person while under the influence "because the jury felt bad".
Edit: last comment directed at @Foreigner , not electrum1. Anybody is welcome to cite a time in which "
Violent people who are high assaulting innocent bystanders and the courts letting them off "because addiction?"
 
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I'm not here to win or lose... if you are, then I feel sorry for you.



I didn't ignore it, there's just no way to qualify this opinion. It would just come down to me agreeing/disagreeing which isn't a fruitful conversation to me.

And even if it could be proven, it wouldn't matter since you seem to think all research is propaganda anyway.



How should I know? I don't have an alternate-reality time machine.

Oxy made the opiate addiction epidemic factually, measurably, quantifiably worse, by and large due to how the medical industry fudged data to downplay the addictiveness of it. Your hypothetical questions don't change this fact. Like... this is literally factual canon that nobody disputes. Even the right wing who are pro-business don't dispute it. So I don't know what you're on about.
This ain’t a fact. This isn’t math or newtons law.

There are so many variables here but you’re reducing it down to 1 + 1 = 2. Which is ironic because you also say you don’t want to talk about hypotheticals (because you know deep down that your guess answer at those hypotheticals supports my position).

Let’s just end this debate man. Neither of us can undo this problem even if we did know the exact cause and solution so we’re just playing with our dicks here for no reason.

What we both agree on is that the entire thing is tragic for everyone. And what we both agree on is that neither you nor I can do shit about it.
 
What is ABSOLUTELY true is that you can't force a person off drugs who isn't motivated to quit for themselves. If you institutionalise someone who has no intention of stopping, all you do is take them out of circulation for while. The first thing those people do when they've completed their allotted stint in the rehab is run straight to the nearest dealer to score (and very often proceed to OD).

And in the case of street addicts in particular, they go back to the same life in the same circumstances with the same lack of any realistically attainable future and zero REASON to quit. Because what's being 'treated' is the symptom, not the core problem. Everybody is fixated on the person being 'drug free' as though that alone would magically sort them out, when more often than not the drug abuse is a reaction to other issues, not the main issue itself. Unfortunately there's neither the structure nor the will to tackle the roots of the problem. But hey, at least all those rehabs make money out of their wash-rinse-repeat clients...
You, are right about that. I have read 3 numbers(sort of) 9%, 10% and 5-10% for success rates of rehabs and the bs in Florida in particular, is a scam and takes advantage of a flawed part of the health care system( one of countless, but the UK is well, not exactly very good either.)
There is something thing in the law, my lousy but cheap health insurance doesn't cover rehabs and such. But many rehab operators and sober living places, in the rehab capital of America( florida) have so many crooks, some who run sober living houses and get drugs to the people their so back to rehab and an easy couple of grand for sending the addicts back for another 30 day $30,000 stay, that many insurance companies are stuck paying and the insurance and recovery system has so many crooked people in it. And everyone pays for their greed.
However, what about the crimes and homeless encampments, that plague the west Coast?.
I agree that simple possession shouldn't be a crime, but even Portugual doesn't allow legalized dealing.
There is also as Keif Richard's said on here a bipartisan war on pain patients, that is ridiculous here.
And in 2023, 118,000+ American died from illegal fentanyl and that is with Narcan widely available. My pharmacist gives it to me free, which is absurd considering, my script isn't big. My doctor even said He would put me on more, I have pain and should have died like 7 years ago, but he can't. There is a bipartisan war on pain patients and to give you some perspective, I read that in 2010 here(USA) 3000-4000 people died of heroin overdoses and Narcan was not available to average people and most states didn't have laws to protect overdose victims from small possession or being under the influence or the people who brought them in the hospital or called an ambulance, things have improved on that, noticeably but still could improve.
Even with the pill epidemic a while back the deathtoll, including suicides, mixing pills with booze and mixing pills, the death toll was over 100,000 less people and no Narcan( for the most part), then this fentanyl epidemic.
So I agree on a lot of your points, but you cannot have the disasters that are the cities that do nothing about crimes by addicts, junkies having taken over certain cities, ( San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Vancouver BC ect.) Also the idea of enabling people to use fentanyl is ridiculous. The government enabling them; honestly my family enabled me, and I had no reason to stop drinking, till I nearly died. Even then, only the legal system( DUI, when my liver really stopped working properly). I was forced into sobriety, for a while, then back to drinking, didn't care about death.

There has to be change, but I see current bipartisan war on pain patients and the let them die and enable the addicts as ridiculous.
Something very sinister is at work. I believe that both parties here, want the junkies( I am not trying to be derogatory, I am a opiod user, for pain.( oxycodone and was also on morphine, but gave up the script, when the pain lessoned).
Alcohol, which is my DOC, I cannot physically drink anymore, only becoming severely allergic, stopped me( other than at times when minor legal issues prevented me( random weekly piss tests), an underage offenders program when I was 19, was a joke.
I understand addiction, very well, I will not get into it but I know that only a person who wants to quit will.
I am against going after people for simple possession.
My trip to San francisco in 2002, was very nice, now I see what California has become, even though I could afford a trip there, I wouldn't want to go back, for free. The place has become a toilet, literally. When I was there, even though I stayed at a 4 star hotel (The Hotel Nico, which was very nice and the complimentary breakfast buffet, was great) which was close to the Tenderloin district, It was not the shit hole it has become. I could walk around at night with no fear. The aggressive pan handlers left me alone.
Which was good because I was drunk most of the time, and well, I was a potentially a very nasty drunk, if provoked. And yes I can fight,( or I could, I was younger and hadn't lost my muscle mass, from my nearly dying of when the alcohol abuse caught up with me) Besides, the street people there rarely have guns. Besides, they left me alone, which is good, because I would have beaten the shit out of them. So walking around at night after a couple of 40's was quite pleasant actually.
However, this idea of allowing people to camp out everywhere, free drug money, cigarettes and all there needs met, and enabling them and allowing the cities to trashed, isn't helping the small minority of homeless addicts, the regular people, the business owners and making the junkie lifestyle comfortable, is not harm reduction. I agree, that unless they are caught committing crimes, which is how a lot of people are able to get sober, I mean from hard drugs. They shouldn't be arrested.
I have compassion but also understand that enabling them has been a failure. Normalizing addiction is beyond foolish and will only make things worse.
I know what it is like, not as just a former alky( I cannot physically drink, thank you ALMIGHTY GOD), but opiods, benzos, and I am superstitious so I will not comment on my light gabapentin use, but throw in nicotine, and this is no way to live. I was supposed to be dead, but I got better, and now I am fucked.
I can only try and imagine what street junkies on fent go through, but enabling them will only dig them into a bigger hole and increase use and their misery and the misery they cause society. Cities, like Seattle, Portland, Vancouver, San Francisco and a whole bunch of other cities, shouldn't be ruined by a few people.
Enabling and normalizing addiction only causes more harm, but in a different way than the draconian policies of the failed war on drugs.
But here in America, it seems like both sides of the political isle have declared war on legit pain patients( I screwed up my pancreas also) and on the other hand seem to not give two shits, about what amounts to an annual deathtoll, that is greater on Americans, than all the young men who died in The Korean War and Vietnam combined.
Making people suffer and also not giving a shit about all the deaths and lives ruined is just plain sick. There has to be some middle ground, but this seems to be bipartisan so, there is no end in sight. Hopefully, the younger kids will avoid fent and increasingly traq dope, and hopefully the shaming and denying pain patients, effective relief will end.
 
This ain’t a fact. This isn’t math or newtons law.

There are so many variables here but you’re reducing it down to 1 + 1 = 2. Which is ironic because you also say you don’t want to talk about hypotheticals (because you know deep down that your guess answer at those hypotheticals supports my position).

I'm not reducing it down. I'm mentioning one causative contributing factor. You keep saying that I'm saying Purdue is the cause of the entire opioid epidemic, which is the opposite of what I said. I said it amplified it. It's like you literally only read what you want to read instead of what I'm actually saying.

Let’s just end this debate man. Neither of us can undo this problem even if we did know the exact cause and solution so we’re just playing with our dicks here for no reason.

I know the cause. Oregon is rolling back decriminalization because they don't have the resources to do full HR + crime/punishment + rehab. They don't have the money or personnel. So they have to choose the thing that's going to save their city, in the short term, from becoming a third world country, and that's crime/punishment. Sucks, but there you have it.

That's why I brought up Purdue. They are liable for millions of new addicts, so we should get them to fund the programs we need. But for some reason you're defending Purdue. *shrug*

What we both agree on is that the entire thing is tragic for everyone. And what we both agree on is that neither you nor I can do shit about it.

Partisan in-fighting in the US and Canada means this will never be solved. Both sides want all or nothing and that's why drug policy keeps failing over and over. No one is willing to cross the aisle and create a comprehensive plan because nobody is willing to contradict their own party politics. It's pathetic. I hate how stupidly, mindlessly tribal our politicians are.
 
Partisan in-fighting in the US and Canada means this will never be solved. Both sides want all or nothing and that's why drug policy keeps failing over and over. No one is willing to cross the aisle and create a comprehensive plan because nobody is willing to contradict their own party politics. It's pathetic. I hate how stupidly, mindlessly tribal our politicians are.
The last thing I’ll say about the opioid thing is that no matter who provides the drugs be it Purdue, the cartel or a doctor. I think it ultimately comes down to the individual that chose to put the drug in their body, chose to stay on it, or chose to get off. I know addiction is a disease but people that got clean and did the right thing made that choice.


this aspect of how our governments work, even as it pertains to issues beyond the whole drug thing; it’s quite tragic and I am trying to do a lot of work on myself because it fills me with a rage that is extremely unhealthy for me. I can’t change it. Hating it only hurts me. I need to accept this is how it is; I hope I can make peace with it.
 
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The last thing I’ll say about the opioid thing is that no matter who provides the drugs be it Purdue, the cartel or a doctor. I think it ultimately comes down to the individual that chose to put the drug in their body, chose to stay on it, or chose to get off. I know addiction is a disease but people that got clean and did the right thing made that choice.

Of course! Free will and all that. But it looks a little different when you're doing it under the seemingly wise advice of a doctor vs. you're at a party and take some handouts. The doctor's being crooked and told false info by Purdue makes it all the worse.

I personally know a guy who became addicted to opioids via Oxy for back pain. He had a slipped disc. His story is identical to what the research shows. Back hurt, he was afraid to take opioids because of all the horror stories, doc told him that oxy was less of a problem, then he got addicted, then his doc cut him off, then the WDs freaked him out and he turned to street opioids. It's been like 20 years and he's still hooked.

I don't have an addictive personality so I can't relate to these stories. I took morphine and hydromorphone for years and was able to stop pretty much whenever I wanted. But I think some people get hooked pretty quick, this guy was probably one of those folks. I feel really bad for him.

this aspect of how our governments work, even as it pertains to issues beyond the whole drug thing; it’s quite tragic and I am trying to do a lot of work on myself because it fills me with a rage that is extremely unhealthy for me. I can’t change it. Hating it only hurts me. I need to accept this is how it is; I hope I can make peace with it.

Agreed brother... practicing acceptance for what you can't change is how you maintain your peace. There are days I don't do that. I just rage or feel sad. But what can I do? I'm one guy with only two hands.
 
I think it ultimately comes down to the individual that chose to put the drug in their body, chose to stay on it, or chose to get off. I know addiction is a disease but people that got clean and did the right thing made that choice.

That sentence is a contradiction in terms.
Choice implies individual agency. That doesn't come into the picture with real diseases. Nobody can choose to just stop having diabetes. On the other hand an addict can choose to get off drugs. That's a conscious voluntary act.

Likewise nobody wakes up one morning with the sudden irrepressible urge to shoot up half a gram of heroin or snort five lines of coke. You don't catch junkiedom by hanging around junkies either, otherwise all the HR people would be wearing hazmat suits. And yep I'm being deliberately facetious to make a point.
Addiction is an obsessive behaviour which is created through classic operant conditioning, ie reward seeking / reward expectancy which ends up in a self-reinforcing loop. There's no true medical procedures that 'cure' addictive behaviour because it's not really a medical problem. It's individual cognitive processes that lead people out of, as well as into, addiction. Now genuine mental illnesses, which do require medical treatment, often precede drug abuse (maladaptive coping strategy) or are exacerbated by it, but that's a different matter.

And there always have been and always will be addicts so long as humans use mind-altering substances (which appears to be an anthropological constant, therefore the 'war on drugs', which is ultimately a war on drug users, is also a war against an aspect of basic human nature and so was always doomed to fail).
BUT in a context of legalization, those addicts at least would not be dying left right and centre from never being sure of the dosage when the product varies wildly and unpredictably in potency, from toxic admixtures and various contaminants. And they could be much better helped without the added stigma of forced criminality.
 
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