Opioids - on for life, or not

[RedRum OG]

I'm wondering your personal experience with coming to terms either being off or on opiates for life.

I've been on opiates for 10 years, struggling to taper for methadone 7 of them. I have been stuck halfway between two worlds, and its confusing. I was always so sure that I wanted to be off until I heard a bunch of daunting stories in a short period of time. William Burroughs has always been a huge influence on me. I was under the misconception that he sobered up in the 80s and never looked back. I recently found out he was on 60mg methadone and having the occasional heroin relapse until the day he died. He was "on" for almost 60 years. James Fogle, the man behind Drugstore Cowboy, was also a man I thought sobered up, as it showed in the movie, in the 70s, but he actually died in prison, recently, for robbing a pharmacy in the 2010s. He was also "on" for almost 60 years. Herbert Huncke, the man who is credited with inventing the term "beat"as in "beatnik" was a classic homeless NYC heroin junkie till the day he died. Also almost 60 years "on". Huncke and Burroughs basically did heroin from WW2 to 9/11, think about that shit. The cherry on top was a methadone counselor I had, with the old soldier scarred arms and fat fingers, and he said that him and many of his friends have been off for decades and still dont sleep right.

This tapering methadone business is brutal, and I have no reason to continue tapering if my end goal is a life of PAWS. I've been doing it one decade and I'm exhausted. Looking forward to potentially another 5 in this life, I want to know which fate I need to accept, and move on. My main reason for tapering was the hold opiates have, I dont like being vulnerable, needing to cop clinic time in rain, sleet, hail, snow, minneapolis riots, whatever. I dont like that I cant even dress and shower without my government sponsored morning dose.

I've never considered myself a naive person. If anything a little pessimistic. I believe addicts can live normal lives, I'm doing it, but I no longer know if I believe certain ones can do so happily without help, much like someone with OCD or bipolar.. What do you think? Are some brains just destined for imbalance? Not so much wondering about the compulsive, emotional side of addiction, but the more biological route specific to opioids.

 

[JessFR]

I don't know.

Sorry I wish I had a better answer, this is something I've been thinking about myself lately.

I believe that it's possible for people to get off opiates and stay off opiates. I don't know that I believe that anyone can. But the how do you really know if you can you can't if you don't try?

I for one have been on opioids for nearly all my adult life, and methadones the only way I've been able to maintain a reasonably functional life.

But yeah, substitution therapies like methadone have big downsides.

So, yeah sorry but I don't really know myself. I really hope so.

 

[polymath]

Depends on whether the use of opioids becomes legal at some point and you don't have to get your dose from the clinic anymore, or whether it becomes even more stigmatized and economically disadvantaged addicts are just cut off their methadone and thrown to the street.

 

[MindlessBilly]

I've been on opiates daily for what would be 5 years now, had used recreationally for many years before that until one day it was too late their teeth had sunk in. Now I bounce between heroin (which I enjoy) and suboxone which keeps me up at night and offerrs no enjoyable effects other than when using every day for a few weeks the craving for a real opiate has dulled but still playing in the back of my mind and I slip up and start the whole cycle again.

I sure as hell dont want to be like this for the rest of my life im only 35 and am wasting away my life being a slave to this crap, i know if i can get past it I can live a better life and get shit back on track if i do it sooner rather than later but the idea of stopping has terrified me.for years, i can get down to a stable.dose of 2-4mg of suboxone but that last taper down to 1mg etc becomes very hard and find my self getting fed up and eating another mg or two.. I spent the last 2 years being a functional addict until covid came and I lost my job, now I'm so deep back into the heroin the idea of returning to work 6us very overwhelming but I can't live on welfare for much much longer.

I've been thinking a lot about going to SE Asia or South America to get Ibogiane treatment, i have a lot of faith in psychedelics and read many successful stories. It's just unfortunate overseas travel is impossible currently and I don't know anywhere I could do the treatment in Australia.

I'm terrified of doing traditional psychedelics at the moment as the trips are brutally introspective and in turn I feel fucking horrible about what I've put those closest to me through, it feels counter productive as I come out of the trip loathing my self.


Anyways I hope all you kindred spirits are not stuck on opiates for life!

 

[Lauren1978]

I'm wondering your personal experience with coming to terms either being off or on opiates for life.

I've been on opiates for 10 years, struggling to taper for methadone 7 of them. I have been stuck halfway between two worlds, and its confusing. I was always so sure that I wanted to be off until I heard a bunch of daunting stories in a short period of time. William Burroughs has always been a huge influence on me. I was under the misconception that he sobered up in the 80s and never looked back. I recently found out he was on 60mg methadone and having the occasional heroin relapse until the day he died. He was "on" for almost 60 years. James Fogle, the man behind Drugstore Cowboy, was also a man I thought sobered up, as it showed in the movie, in the 70s, but he actually died in prison, recently, for robbing a pharmacy in the 2010s. He was also "on" for almost 60 years. Herbert Huncke, the man who is credited with inventing the term "beat"as in "beatnik" was a classic homeless NYC heroin junkie till the day he died. Also almost 60 years "on". Huncke and Burroughs basically did heroin from WW2 to 9/11, think about that shit. The cherry on top was a methadone counselor I had, with the old soldier scarred arms and fat fingers, and he said that him and many of his friends have been off for decades and still dont sleep right.

This tapering methadone business is brutal, and I have no reason to continue tapering if my end goal is a life of PAWS. I've been doing it one decade and I'm exhausted. Looking forward to potentially another 5 in this life, I want to know which fate I need to accept, and move on. My main reason for tapering was the hold opiates have, I dont like being vulnerable, needing to cop clinic time in rain, sleet, hail, snow, minneapolis riots, whatever. I dont like that I cant even dress and shower without my government sponsored morning dose.

I've never considered myself a naive person. If anything a little pessimistic. I believe addicts can live normal lives, I'm doing it, but I no longer know if I believe certain ones can do so happily without help, much like someone with OCD or bipolar.. What do you think? Are some brains just destined for imbalance? Not so much wondering about the compulsive, emotional side of addiction, but the more biological route specific to opioids.

Wow, you are asking some good questions. I hear you. I was on a high dose of oxy for decades (post surgery, but still got quite hooked).

It's been a long struggle. I did get off oxycodone by switching to methadone and then gently, slowly but steadily tapering. Took months to get totally off, but I was able to never feel physically horrible, so that was something. Since I was not a huge fan of methadone (but it kept the withdrawals away) I felt better able to taper off methadone than oxy, since I'd crave them too much. I do not think I could have tapered off oxycodone but like i said, methadone was more like a "keep pain/withdrawal away" but not otherwise appealing. So for ME, tapering from methadone was doable.

So it's been 2 years and I moved abroad and it really helped. But now I'm back (covid related return) and I find myself struggling with cravings a few times a week. And I get triggered emotionally, too. I take a LONG time falling asleep, and I don't sleep well.

So the bigger question I ask is your question referring to PAWS. To be clear, I am happier than I was 2 years ago, I think more clearly and I am achieving more than I was then or would have, if I had continued using. And frankly, my oxy dose was so high I'd probably have died if I had not gotten off them. So no regrets there at all. Indeed, I'm a little proud.

Like you, I don't want to waste my life or depend on others for my well being/pills, etc. I do not want, to want opiates. And I'm not clinically depressed.

But I wonder when the next truly joyful time will come. A part of me wonders if euphoria for ME, is now only possible with opiates...which would suck.
In my head, I know that's not true. I know there have been hilarious times, I've laughed hard and been intimate and performed on stage and felt really quite good and I was sober! So I know it's doable.

So why do I still miss opiates? Why do I feel that even now, I'm living "in between" the good times??

I've been on opiates daily for what would be 5 years now, had used recreationally for many years before that until one day it was too late their teeth had sunk in. Now I bounce between heroin (which I enjoy) and suboxone which keeps me up at night and offerrs no enjoyable effects other than when using every day for a few weeks the craving for a real opiate has dulled but still playing in the back of my mind and I slip up and start the whole cycle again.

I sure as hell dont want to be like this for the rest of my life im only 35 and am wasting away my life being a slave to this crap, i know if i can get past it I can live a better life and get shit back on track if i do it sooner rather than later but the idea of stopping has terrified me.for years, i can get down to a stable.dose of 2-4mg of suboxone but that last taper down to 1mg etc becomes very hard and find my self getting fed up and eating another mg or two.. I spent the last 2 years being a functional addict until covid came and I lost my job, now I'm so deep back into the heroin the idea of returning to work 6us very overwhelming but I can't live on welfare for much much longer.

I've been thinking a lot about going to SE Asia or South America to get Ibogiane treatment, i have a lot of faith in psychedelics and read many successful stories. It's just unfortunate overseas travel is impossible currently and I don't know anywhere I could do the treatment in Australia.

I'm terrified of doing traditional psychedelics at the moment as the trips are brutally introspective and in turn I feel fucking horrible about what I've put those closest to me through, it feels counter productive as I come out of the trip loathing my self.


Anyways I hope all you kindred spirits are not stuck on opiates for life!

 

[RedRum OG]

Thanks for all the replies, guys. The more perspectives, the better

So it's been 2 years and I moved abroad and it really helped. But now I'm back (covid related return) and I find myself struggling with cravings a few times a week. And I get triggered emotionally, too. I take a LONG time falling asleep, and I don't sleep well.

Good luck with staying straight. Cravings can be very powerful. Sucks to hear you still have PAWS, not something I'm ready for

 

[clubcard]

Burroughs was on methadone until the day he died.

The Junkie Genius

A new biography reveals a William S. Burroughs both ghastlier and more impressive than many previously thought.

www.theatlantic.com

Some people evidently can just remain on a maintenance dose and get on with their life.

 

[TheInvisibleStoner]

I think you should at least try it.

I have been off for decent amount of times and can say I felt pretty good. After 6 months you are feeling good. But never have been on it for as long as you.

I know several people off long term dosing and they feel fine years later and are totally opiate free.

Addicts are quick to blame drugs for their issues. There are people that never took methadone in their life that have sleep issues. If someone is off methadone for years and having sleep issues, it is something else.

Also PAWS is how you treat yourself. Looking at the wall all day and nothing really is happening, the PAWS may seem bad. Eating right, and doing exciting things it will be much better.

Getting laid is 1000x better. Food is 100x better. Music is better. Not having to go ever to a clinic again, is priceless. You start to sleep like a normal person again. Definitely worth a shot before throwing in the towel.

Its messed up how regulated methadone is. And having a withdrawal always hanging over you isn't fun.

 

[Branggen]

If you do get off life will be a lot less boring, but probably more painful, in the emotional sense. Ill be clean for 6 months in november after 7 years of methadone. My sleep isnt to bad other than when the sun comes up thats pretty much when i need to wake up now cause I just cant sleep in, who knows maybe that will improve in the next year. Overall it really isnt to bad, you just have to get used to being emotional again. I honestly dont even crave opiates anymore, I do love to get my drink on though. Im sure if I go through something really emotionally taxing the desire for opiates will come back, hope I never do them again though

 

[Nightraver]

Wow, you are asking some good questions. I hear you. I was on a high dose of oxy for decades (post surgery, but still got quite hooked).

It's been a long struggle. I did get off oxycodone by switching to methadone and then gently, slowly but steadily tapering. Took months to get totally off, but I was able to never feel physically horrible, so that was something. Since I was not a huge fan of methadone (but it kept the withdrawals away) I felt better able to taper off methadone than oxy, since I'd crave them too much. I do not think I could have tapered off oxycodone but like i said, methadone was more like a "keep pain/withdrawal away" but not otherwise appealing. So for ME, tapering from methadone was doable.

So it's been 2 years and I moved abroad and it really helped. But now I'm back (covid related return) and I find myself struggling with cravings a few times a week. And I get triggered emotionally, too. I take a LONG time falling asleep, and I don't sleep well.

So the bigger question I ask is your question referring to PAWS. To be clear, I am happier than I was 2 years ago, I think more clearly and I am achieving more than I was then or would have, if I had continued using. And frankly, my oxy dose was so high I'd probably have died if I had not gotten off them. So no regrets there at all. Indeed, I'm a little proud.

Like you, I don't want to waste my life or depend on others for my well being/pills, etc. I do not want, to want opiates. And I'm not clinically depressed.

But I wonder when the next truly joyful time will come. A part of me wonders if euphoria for ME, is now only possible with opiates...which would suck.
In my head, I know that's not true. I know there have been hilarious times, I've laughed hard and been intimate and performed on stage and felt really quite good and I was sober! So I know it's doable.

So why do I still miss opiates? Why do I feel that even now, I'm living "in between" the good times??

Iv been on high dose oxy post surgery for four years now and Iv truly tried my hardest to taper off of them without success and almost lost everything in the process.
Your post here actually seems like a little bit of hope for me and gives me an idea about trying tapering with methadone. But iv also heard a lot of horrible stories about metadone withdrawals

 

[Kara Kava]

I don't think PAWS is how you treat yourself. It's real, very real

 

[TheInvisibleStoner]

We are discussing a lifetime of PAWS. As in years and years. Or even the rest of your life. I believe you are just over 2 months clean, you still have much time to go.

Yes PAWS is real. But there is no way after years of clean time will you still be experiencing anything related to the methadone. That would be an undiagnosed issue. Not methadone PAWS 3 years later.

Perfect example is @Branggen . 7 years of dosing and 6 months clean. Sounds like he is enjoying his life pretty good. Watch him in another 6 months. He will be doing even better. 2-3 years from now methadone will be nothing more than a bad memory. Even after a (solid) year clean time you forget what sickness feels like. But can guarantee if he was treating his body like shit, still using other drugs regularly, not eating right, etc. He would have a different story at 6 months.

He actually said the perfect words too. Your life will be more exciting, but more painful. Couldn't be more true.

On the other hand, there are some people that just cannot do it. Maybe they don't want to either. Or care. And for them a lifetime of maintenance is a no brainer over a lifetime of active addiction. You CAN live a semi normal life on methadone, but well worth it to put the work in needed to get clean so you can enjoy the small things someone on methadone will never get to feel. Additionally, just because you made some mistakes when you were younger, got addicted to opiates does not mean you need them for life now.

Methadones job is to take you out of active addiction and let you live a normal life without the added sickness. It does that job quite well. Once you are stable, cannot remember the last time you used, methadone has done its job, and time to come off. At least how I feel methadone should be used. Allowing people to dose for so many years is not helping them. Because you are only driving yourself deeper into dependence. Here too, some people never get to that point and continue to use on top of the methadone, so they should certainly stay on it until they are clean from street drugs and have a reason to be clean.

I always tell people not to believe all the horror stories they hear about methadone. They are always skewed, or a back story we don't know about. The reality is there are many, many people years off methadone and are living just fine. But every last one of them had to fight like no other to get years clean time. They certainly deserve it.

 

[RedRum OG]

Good advice, guys. Thanks for all of it. I am still on 20mg a day, haven't gone back up, though I've considered it. I think the best option is to try. It's just scary. The last time I was sober, my 16 year old friends and i were worried about using up minutes on our flip phones. That's how much of my life I have built on this. That's how much I have to go back through and fix.

 

[Kara Kava]

We are discussing a lifetime of PAWS. As in years and years. Or even the rest of your life. I believe you are just over 2 months clean, you still have much time to go.

Yes PAWS is real. But there is no way after years of clean time will you still be experiencing anything related to the methadone. That would be an undiagnosed issue. Not methadone PAWS 3 years later.

Perfect example is @Branggen . 7 years of dosing and 6 months clean. Sounds like he is enjoying his life pretty good. Watch him in another 6 months. He will be doing even better. 2-3 years from now methadone will be nothing more than a bad memory. Even after a (solid) year clean time you forget what sickness feels like. But can guarantee if he was treating his body like shit, still using other drugs regularly, not eating right, etc. He would have a different story at 6 months.

He actually said the perfect words too. Your life will be more exciting, but more painful. Couldn't be more true.

On the other hand, there are some people that just cannot do it. Maybe they don't want to either. Or care. And for them a lifetime of maintenance is a no brainer over a lifetime of active addiction. You CAN live a semi normal life on methadone, but well worth it to put the work in needed to get clean so you can enjoy the small things someone on methadone will never get to feel. Additionally, just because you made some mistakes when you were younger, got addicted to opiates does not mean you need them for life now.

Methadones job is to take you out of active addiction and let you live a normal life without the added sickness. It does that job quite well. Once you are stable, cannot remember the last time you used, methadone has done its job, and time to come off. At least how I feel methadone should be used. Allowing people to dose for so many years is not helping them. Because you are only driving yourself deeper into dependence. Here too, some people never get to that point and continue to use on top of the methadone, so they should certainly stay on it until they are clean from street drugs and have a reason to be clean.

I always tell people not to believe all the horror stories they hear about methadone. They are always skewed, or a back story we don't know about. The reality is there are many, many people years off methadone and are living just fine. But every last one of them had to fight like no other to get years clean time. They certainly deserve it.

Actually no. Some cunt blamed me for my husband's suicide and told me i needed 20 years on dope to finally understand addiction. So ya back on it hard.
Thanks for setting it in motion rat boy. Btw a computer engineer would actually know it was its a science field.

 

[Lauren1978]

Iv been on high dose oxy post surgery for four years now and Iv truly tried my hardest to taper off of them without success and almost lost everything in the process.
Your post here actually seems like a little bit of hope for me and gives me an idea about trying tapering with methadone. But iv also heard a lot of horrible stories about metadone withdrawals

People vary in this area just like which diets work best for you, and which exercises you're most likely to stick with, etc.

I think for ME, methadone achieved 3 things: It kept the cravings and withdrawal/pain away, AND because I didn't "love" methadone, I tended not to crave more. I felt fairly normal on it, actually. But for a host of reasons, I wanted off all opiates.

Since I didn't get a buzz from methadone (a blessing in disguise), it served its purpose and was easier to taper off of. I really don't believe I could have gotten off oxycodone the same way. Not on my own.

But as I said before again, I took my time. I had hoarded some methadone for awhile with a plan in the back of my mind for tapering...when the time came, I just knew it was NOW OR NEVER and I began.

I decreased my dose like 5% every week or so. When the dose got down to about 20-25mg, it got harder to do, so I went slower. Be gentle with yourself. You want this to succeed and if you suffer too much for too long, you'll tempt relapse.

Also, my comment on PAWS and how I still feel it, is NOT referring to a daily occurence. I just noticed that upon my return to the USA, there were some triggers from my past and being in the same area again, and I felt old cravings return. Luckily I had some old RX lyrica with me. I knew taking those helped back in the day during withdrawals, and I swear lyrica helps with cravings even now. Weird, but true.

The other thing that helps is coming here and reading stories of withdrawal. It helps to remind myself to think ahead to what it would really truly mean to be back on the train to nowhere.

"One's too many and a 1000 is never enough..."

 

[Neithman]

I'm wondering your personal experience with coming to terms either being off or on opiates for life.

I've been on opiates for 10 years, struggling to taper for methadone 7 of them. I have been stuck halfway between two worlds, and its confusing. I was always so sure that I wanted to be off until I heard a bunch of daunting stories in a short period of time. William Burroughs has always been a huge influence on me. I was under the misconception that he sobered up in the 80s and never looked back. I recently found out he was on 60mg methadone and having the occasional heroin relapse until the day he died. He was "on" for almost 60 years. James Fogle, the man behind Drugstore Cowboy, was also a man I thought sobered up, as it showed in the movie, in the 70s, but he actually died in prison, recently, for robbing a pharmacy in the 2010s. He was also "on" for almost 60 years. Herbert Huncke, the man who is credited with inventing the term "beat"as in "beatnik" was a classic homeless NYC heroin junkie till the day he died. Also almost 60 years "on". Huncke and Burroughs basically did heroin from WW2 to 9/11, think about that shit. The cherry on top was a methadone counselor I had, with the old soldier scarred arms and fat fingers, and he said that him and many of his friends have been off for decades and still dont sleep right.

This tapering methadone business is brutal, and I have no reason to continue tapering if my end goal is a life of PAWS. I've been doing it one decade and I'm exhausted. Looking forward to potentially another 5 in this life, I want to know which fate I need to accept, and move on. My main reason for tapering was the hold opiates have, I dont like being vulnerable, needing to cop clinic time in rain, sleet, hail, snow, minneapolis riots, whatever. I dont like that I cant even dress and shower without my government sponsored morning dose.

I've never considered myself a naive person. If anything a little pessimistic. I believe addicts can live normal lives, I'm doing it, but I no longer know if I believe certain ones can do so happily without help, much like someone with OCD or bipolar.. What do you think? Are some brains just destined for imbalance? Not so much wondering about the compulsive, emotional side of addiction, but the more biological route specific to opioids.

You should look into naltrexone therapy after stopping methadone for a long enough time. It upregulates opioid receptors very quick, much quicker than it would be possible without naltrexone and can help to sensitize your opioid receptors to natural endorphins again

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

I'm wondering your personal experience with coming to terms either being off or on opiates for life.

I've been on opiates for 10 years, struggling to taper for methadone 7 of them. I have been stuck halfway between two worlds, and its confusing. I was always so sure that I wanted to be off until I heard a bunch of daunting stories in a short period of time. William Burroughs has always been a huge influence on me. I was under the misconception that he sobered up in the 80s and never looked back. I recently found out he was on 60mg methadone and having the occasional heroin relapse until the day he died. He was "on" for almost 60 years. James Fogle, the man behind Drugstore Cowboy, was also a man I thought sobered up, as it showed in the movie, in the 70s, but he actually died in prison, recently, for robbing a pharmacy in the 2010s. He was also "on" for almost 60 years. Herbert Huncke, the man who is credited with inventing the term "beat"as in "beatnik" was a classic homeless NYC heroin junkie till the day he died. Also almost 60 years "on". Huncke and Burroughs basically did heroin from WW2 to 9/11, think about that shit. The cherry on top was a methadone counselor I had, with the old soldier scarred arms and fat fingers, and he said that him and many of his friends have been off for decades and still dont sleep right.

This tapering methadone business is brutal, and I have no reason to continue tapering if my end goal is a life of PAWS. I've been doing it one decade and I'm exhausted. Looking forward to potentially another 5 in this life, I want to know which fate I need to accept, and move on. My main reason for tapering was the hold opiates have, I dont like being vulnerable, needing to cop clinic time in rain, sleet, hail, snow, minneapolis riots, whatever. I dont like that I cant even dress and shower without my government sponsored morning dose.

I've never considered myself a naive person. If anything a little pessimistic. I believe addicts can live normal lives, I'm doing it, but I no longer know if I believe certain ones can do so happily without help, much like someone with OCD or bipolar.. What do you think? Are some brains just destined for imbalance? Not so much wondering about the compulsive, emotional side of addiction, but the more biological route specific to opioids.

Just because the junkies you mentioned couldn't get off doesn't mean you won't be able to. And your counselor was talking shit. Coming off methadone doesn't condemn you to a life of PAWS. I was on either heroin or methadone for 20 years, but once I'd lost all of the veins I was prepared to lose, the last five years consisted of a very slow methadone reduction program. It wasn't easy, but looking back it wasn't fuckin hard either. It entirely depends upon if you really want to come off or not. I've suffered no PAWS or cravings since and I regret not doing it sooner.

Ignore the junkie hipsters, it's YOUR life that's in the balance...

 

[allone]

you should put voting system on this thread

 

[trogere]

I'll reply with a question: have you looked at iboga? I never experimented it myself, but I heard so many transformative stories, maybe it's worth a look?

 

[RedRum OG]

you should put voting system on this thread

That would be smart, if I knew how.

If a mod feels like this is worthy of a poll, that'd be lovely.