On Extraction and Synthetic Drugs

[daysonatrain]

i find your posts to be very uninformed in basic drug knowledge teo. not to mention very insulting to anyone who doesnt hold your "holier than thou" attitute toward "natural" and "unnatural" drugs. like swillow said, it doesnt seem these plants have taught you much.

"Look the plant-drugs I'm talking about... Ayahuasca, Peyote, etc. can't kill you NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO!" -teo

just one of your very misguided statements im going to point out here. Ayahuasca is a combination of two chemicals (NO MATTER WHAT PLANTS IT COMES FROM ITS THESE TWO CHEMICALS THAT COUNT), dmt and maios. Maios have a long list of contraindicators, which if combined in sufficient quantities can easily kill someone (ever heard of seratonin syndrome?). this is one of the reasons traditional cultures had long fasts (and restricted diets) before partaking in a ceremony.

really, your just making an ass of yourself. the more you talk the more insulting and stupid you look. but i will stop responding after this post because your just a troll looking to incite people.

You've presented your view, why continue arguing your point over and over?? obviously several people on this forum dont agree with you. just leave it at that.

 

[Visitor Q]

You've presented your view, why continue arguing your point over and over?? obviously several people on this forum dont agree with you. just leave it at that.

Yeah agreed. This thread is dead as Dillinger.

Teo is an ignorant who thinks he is righteous and he is going on about his holy crusade.
Kind of an incarnation of the catholic church and all the "knowledge" IT has given us...

...A bunch of crap to inspire guilt trips.

Pollution for the mind if you ask me.

 

[solistus]

It's always nice to have a straw man that sets itself back up again and again, but I think the fascination/amusement with yelling at teo is slowly becoming annoyance. Is it against the spirit of harms reduction to say that I don't really have much sympathy for anyone dumb enough to take his 'arguments' seriously?

 

[guerillabedlam]

If I inject some LSD into an apple is it then a Natural Entheogen?

Maybe ill get to experience a spirit of an apple or something.

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

and don't tell me you can allow it for personal preparation, but "you can't sell it" bullhonkey. the ability to trade goods AND services is an essential right as much as doing the drugs themselves.

I think it's a great idea to have it for personal use but illegal for commercial sale.

The new Cannabis bill in Cali proposed something like this....

Sorry but most average, normal people are gonna be with me on this one!

Of course I know that anmals get drunk, but to say that fermented fruit is the same as wine is ridiculous. Its fermented fruit. Rather different. Wine is created through the intentional action of fermenting sugars in various fruit and grain products, as determined by human's; fermented fruit occurrs when fruit begins to rot, as is par for the course in organic structures.

Wine is created using yeasts and grapes; the two are rarely combined in nature.

I'm very much into Zymology. I make my own beer, wine, kombucha and kefir.

Wine IS fermented fruit, and this happens naturally and in nature... how do you think wine and beer were invented?

The ancients knew that they had to add yeast to a barrel of grade juice? Or they just let some juice sitting around? come on....

That's not what the post mortem found. And there are other examples - you're just rather selective in what you include.

can ya link me?

so dried nugz are ok (can ingest), live cacti are ok (cannot ingest) dried rootbark ok (cannot ingest), dried shrooms ok (can ingest), ayahuasca not ok (preparation), beer ok (can ingest), poppies ok (cannot ingest) opium not ok (preparation)...

I donno about all that "Can ingest" stuff... but it'd be real simple.

Living plants, seeds and unadulterated botanicals would always be legal... everything else could be restricted if they need arose.

So really everything would start out as being legal and then if there was problems noted with it's use then laws could be made... but they couldn't restrict botanicals.

That is my main point here really.... that the entire drug community should get behind the idea of legalizing all botanicals as our first step in the fight against the drug war.

If y'all cannot understand that most NORMAL, AVERAGE (get the fuck over this term, you know what I fucking mean) people would NOT want all drugs to be legal then YOU ARE STUPID!

If you can't understand that most normal people would be much more inclined to legalize all plants rather than legalizing all drugs... then you are stupid.

Ask the government to legalize all drugs and you will get a big fuck no from 90% of people...

Look at the current situation with plant-drugs... recently major cases were won with both peyote and ayahuasca... both of those plant-drugs are now legal in the USA for religious users... NOW is the time to push for the legalization of plants! But it will be foolish at this moment in history to ask for all drugs to be legalized!

That is my fucking point... don't y'all get it?

Put all the other shit aside... those are just suggestions on how to be safe but the point of all this is that we as a community should push for the legalization of plants, because at this point asking for all drugs to be legal isn't going to work.

Do y'all get it???

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

Is it against the spirit of harms reduction to say that I don't really have much sympathy for anyone dumb enough to take his 'arguments' seriously?

My method of determining a drugs safety WILL keep you SAFE! It will greatly limit the number of drugs you can take, but if you really care about your mind/body then it's a good way to go.

I'm sure it's not the only way... but I have never seen a method more simple and effective... as I stated I'd really like to hear what y'all do to determine a drug is safe? If possible present it in a check-list form so others can easily use it!

I'm really starting to think this site is not about harm reduction, it's about getting high... which is fine, just don't try to act like "oh we're all about harm reduction here".

 

[Roger&Me]

^Actually, your approach seems to be the opposite of harm reduction: you're attempting to force your beliefs on others, and that will never work.

Harm reduction is about understanding that people all walk different paths, each person is unique and has (sometimes deeply-rooted) habits relative to psychoactives-- its simply part of our nature. You like botanicals, others may prefer refined chemicals; the point is, whatever drugs you fancy, we try to ensure that there's always open discussion about the possible risks and how to avoid them.

People will consume the unresearched tryptamines and phenethylamines no matter what: they are readily available, and people will consume them. BL is one of the few places on the internet where one can discuss these compounds in-depth, and even seek advice from pharmacological experts in the ADD forum. I think BL serves a role in the psychedelic community that is not only beneficial, but essential.

Just my opinion.

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

Do y'all get the legalization thing?

The rest is much less important.

Harm reduction is about understanding that people all walk different paths, each person is unique and has (sometimes deeply routed) habits relative to psychoactives

Like the habit of making posts like "how can i make money fast, I don't care if it's legal" by obvious drug addicts?

Harm reduction is about reducing the amount of harm drugs cause... not about allowing everybody to "walk their own path"

What if they path they walk is robbing people for money so they can get drugs?

That ain't cool.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?p=8107270#post8107270

At least the mods closed it... but hey, he's just walking his own path right?

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

My check-list for drug safety is just a guide. I don't except anyone to follow it who doesn't wish to do so... BUT concerning the legalization of plants... that is a different matter...

Let's please debate that issue, I know many of y'all disagree with me about my guide, so let's just move on past that (tho I do really wanna see y'all make a check-list or two, perhaps I can improve mine).

So... we should push for the legalization of plants only at this current time? Anybody agree, disagree?

 

[nopipesdfw]

^ No on the exclusivity of plants, but we should push for realistic goals in our current political climate. Legalization + regulation of ALL drugs (My long term goal) is realistically reached through a number of steps.

Pushing for medical/decrim/legalized marijuana is a good starting point. Pushing for DMT and mescaline containing plants to be legal is less likely to be supported by the public at this time, along with most other illegals. On top of legalized marijuana, I also feel that new (mostly synthetic) drugs the government has to deal with could be easily changed to being scheduled more fairly. (No more automatic schedule I for anything that gets hyped up, changing mistakes later is much harder.)

Let me ask you this: Would you rather the current situation where your plants are illegal and so are synthetics and street drugs or mine? (Your drugs are more than legal, same with almost all hallucinogens, and the rest are regulated but available.)

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

Pushing for DMT and mescaline containing plants to be legal is less likely to be supported by the public at this time, along with most other illegals.

Extracted chemicals yes, but Peyote and Ayahuasca were just ruled to be legal for religious users!

Let me ask you this: Would you rather the current situation where your plants are illegal and so are synthetics and street drugs or mine? (Your drugs are more than legal, same with almost all hallucinogens, and the rest are regulated but available.)

I'd be fine with that.

My point isn't anything other than that AT THIS TIME IN HISTORY it would be wise to push for legalization of plant-drugs only.

 

[Roger&Me]

Like the habit of making posts like "how can i make money fast, I don't care if it's legal" by obvious drug addicts?

Harm reduction is about reducing the amount of harm drugs cause... not about allowing everybody to "walk their own path"

What if they path they walk is robbing people for money so they can get drugs?

That ain't cool.

Your straw-man arguments are getting a bit tiresome; thats clearly a misrepresentation of my position on the matter.

I rarely frequent other forums on BL besides PD, so I wouldn't know anything about posts like you mentioned. BL is a huge site, with a multitude of members, and by sheer probability some of those members will be of the less scrupulous sort.

I do know, however, that here in PD we emphasize a sense of community and caring for each other. Occasionally asinine threads will pop up here and there, like in any forum, but I like to think we do a good job of cultivating interesting discussion and guiding people toward safer behavior regarding their consumption of psychedelic drugs.

And to address your last point: addicts who rob to support their habit are in a terrifyingly desperate situation that I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy. Of course "that ain't cool"! That's the understatement of the century. But they are human beings like you and me: they deserve compassion, love, friendship, and forgiveness.

Life can drive us to heinous acts we never thought ourselves capable of committing,and nobody is exempt from that reality; only a fool would deny the extreme power of circumstances! Of course I'm not suggesting that stealing or in any way harming others is excusable: in fact its horrible and makes me feel sick to my stomach. I'm just pointing out the very real fact that those "thieving addicts" are not in any way below the rest of us- they are people like YOU AND ME, and causing them further pain out of some misguided sense of retribution is simply repugnant and cruel.

One last thing I would like to add. You say that "Harm reduction is ... not about allowing everybody to 'walk their own path'." Noticed the word I bolded.... does it sound strange to you at all?

How can you claim to be in a position to allow anyone to do anything? Do you really think there's a single person on this planet who gives any type of shit about what activities you personally deem acceptable? I highly doubt it.

Bottom line is it doesn't really matter what your opinion is, because people will do as they please. And they should be free to! That's the whole spirit of harm-reduction, to cultivate the prolific dissemination of information that helps people make better and safer choices due to being better informed-- but the key point is they are free to make whatever choice they like.

We are not here to judge people but just to share our own knowledge in an effort to illuminate for future travelers these dark and sometimes dangerous paths we've already traveled ourselves.

 

[Solipsis]

We try to motivate people to make responsible decisions, responsible relative to their original intentions. Take one look at the war on drugs and you will see that you can't tell people what to do because they will walk their own path anyway.

It's too bad some rob others on their path but be realistic about the world and don't think you can help anyone by polarizing the rights and wrongs about drug use. I feel like I'm talking to a mature guy with the understanding of a child, which is why I don't expect to see much harmony in this thread anytime soon. Disharmony can be quite illuminating in terms of argument but screaming at deaf people is another thing altogether.

I try to not make it personal, only to make clear that just about anything coming from you gives the impression that you are not amenable to reason.

This is more a message to everyone else than Teo. Beware of hopeless debate.


edit: plus... you know... everything Roger said. This guy has understanding.

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

And to address your last point: addicts who rob to support their habit are in a terrifyingly desperate situation that I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy.

Oh so it's not their fault? Come on... I guess all drugs should be legal and we'd have addicts running around robbing people and it "wouldn't be their fault".

Just so y'all know there are tons of people who completely agree with my philosophy concerning plants drugs... as in the entire Ayahuasca forums, a few members at the Nexus and many, many, many others.

So there are alot of illogical people out there (according to y'all).

Perhaps y'all just fail to see what I'm trying to present.

Bluelight and the Drug Forums are the only two places were my ideas have been met with such resistance (I wonder why that is?)

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

What is y'alls respond to peyote and aya' being made legal for religious use? that doesn't point in the direction of plant-drugs being accepted?

let me try to lay this out plain and simple...

Peyote goes to court = legal for religious users

Ayahuasca goes to court = legal for religious users

Somebody gets busted with extracted DMT = they go to jail

Somebody gets bust for extracted mescaline = they go to jail


Are y'all seeing the light?

In our current situation it makes sense to push for plants drugs being legal ONLY because the average person can easily make a distinction between them!

So where are the cases where users of heroin, LSD or extracted DMT are given legal permission to use them?

THEY DON'T FUCKING EXIST!

If y'all can't see the point.... well your the stupid ones.

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

THE POINT IS THAT AVERAGE PEOPLE IN REGULAR SOCIETY ARE BEGINNING TO SHOW TOLERANCE FOR PLANT-DRUGS!

But not yet for other drugs, sorry.

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

There are so many layers of the argument I haven't touched.

Like the fact that plant drugs are harder to use, thus people who a lazy won't mess with them.

 

[Roger&Me]

THE POINT IS THAT AVERAGE PEOPLE IN REGULAR SOCIETY ARE BEGINNING TO SHOW TOLERANCE FOR PLANT-DRUGS!

But not yet for other drugs, sorry.

I disagree.

In America alone, people spend many billions of dollars every year purchasing pharmaceutical drugs: all of which are synthetic. The degree to which synthetic drugs are tolerated by mainstream society is many orders of magnitude greater than that afforded to ethnobotanicals and plant psychoactives.

 

[Roger&Me]

There are so many layers of the argument I haven't touched.

Like the fact that plant drugs are harder to use, thus people who a lazy won't mess with them.

Oh, please indulge us! I can only imagine the crystalline nuggets of insight that await us as you continue to unravel so many layers of brilliantly persuasive rhetoric.

 

[Feste]

Like the fact that plant drugs are harder to use, thus people who a lazy won't mess with them.

Yeah, like tobacco! No one uses that stuff!