Nootropics/racetams that pair well with psychedelics

[Hyperflux]

I'd like to get a thread started on nootropics and racetams that go well with lysergamides and tryptamines. So far I've used NASemaxA, Noopept, and aniracetam during trips. It seems that I preserve cognition and lucidity during the trip, meaning that I can get a much greater return on investment during my trip because I'm in control of my thoughts and I can remember my insights (as opposed to wasting time on nonsensical things in the world of psychedelia).

Lots of people say that racetams potentiate psychedelics but to me it makes it easier to deal with a higher dose because you don't seem to get lost. Any anecdotes are welcomed. I will be trying oxiracetam and coluracetam in the future to see their effects.

 

[Solipsis]

How is greater cognitive capacity during a trip going to save you from, for example, ego death though?

Yeah aniracetam especially but also piracetam potentiate an LSD trip for me. Noopept doesn't impress me much when sober so no info on that, and those oligopeptides like selank and semax and analogues I never had the money for.

We already have a thread on this http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...sychedelics-and-Nootropics-Interaction-Thread

 

[aspiringchemist]

I have seen anecdotal reports of tianeptine potentiating the effects of LSD, though haven't tried it myself.

 

[Solipsis]

Maybe due to selective serotonin enhancement? If extracellular serotonin levels are decreased there is relatively more opportunity for LSD to do it's groovy thang..?

Tianeptine seems like a complex beast, when I was into opioids I had considered taking it... but it just doesn't seem like it should be taken lightly. Which really doesn't put it next to supplements in my book, and also it is not nootropic afaik. Although it is an interesting thing to share.

 

[Hyperflux]

I read that thread, I was generally dissatisfied with the amount of anecdotes. It seems like most have only tried piracetam, aniracetam and noopept. I tried tianeptine sulfate for 5 weeks last summer and I do remember it strongly potentiating a couple of AL-LAD trips actually, but I don't think it improved the trip in any way besides that.

 

[aspiringchemist]

Ya, not to derail but tianeptine by itself is no good IMO. I've tried the sodium and sulphate forms from multiple reputable vendors. The horror stories of sodium addiction and chronic dosing are enough to deter me from messing with it much.

a small dose of phenibut would probably ease the nerves.

I admittedly don't know much about nootropics.

 

[DroneLore]

I'm kind of curious about using a nootropic stack to counteract what I perceive to be negative cognitive side effects of dissociative abuse. Any insight on this matter?

 

[Volsam]

I have been using various (I have tried about 90% of all commercially available nootropics) noots for more than 5 years so I have tons of experience with them.

I've posted some info about some of the most popular ones in MDMA forums and will repost it here if anyone is interested:

Besides enhancing the roll and reducing neurotoxicity nootropics might give you the worst headache of your life lasting for hours, ruin your trip, cause lots of anxiety and actually be the cause of neurotoxicity if improperly combined with powerful psychoactive drugs.

I recommend to get the feel for nootropics you choose to use by themselves first to see how your body-brain-mind-emotions react to them. And when combining with psychoactives, always start with lower dosage for noots!

Of all the nootropics and smarts to go with MDMA and psychedelics I'd recommend:
Oxyracetam (increases visual effects, adds to hypomania and sense of well-being),
Aniracetam (increases visual effects, increases auditory effects, adds to sense of well-being),
Piracetam (increases visual effects, adds to hypomania and sense of well-being),
Phenibut (adds to hypomania and sense of well-being, relaxes),
Agmatine (adds to sense of well-being, relaxes, soothes).

These three are pretty good by themselves and could be used with psychedelics and molly but with more caution than the other noots and with a lot smaller amounts if taking with psychedelics:
Huperzine A (increases visual effects, increases dreaming and imagination),
Phenylpiracetam (greatly ad ds to hypomania and sense of well-being, speedy),
Pramiracetam (greatly adds to hypomania and greatly increases memory recollection).

Magnesium is not a nootropic in a classical way but still considered by some and it is mild vasodilator and a weak NMDA antagonist (the most famous NMDA-antagonist is Ketamine), I find it beneficial before, during and after trips.

Noopept is too powerful even by itself and may cause a really bad headache for hours when mixed with psychs, stims or molly. I suggest to never mix Noopept with any psychoactives. It is pretty effective in what it's doing though and I consider it to be the most efficient nootropic in terms of cost/effect.

Sunifiram is another very effective noot, with speedy and clear effects, much more effective than Noopept, but very unresearched and pricey IMO. I would never recommend combining Sunifiram with psychedelics.

Tianeptine is not a nootropic, it is an atypical anti-depressant, so it has to be treated as such, like a prescription drug. It will increase effects of lots of drugs but I have a feeling that it will not be healthy. I advise not to mix Tianeptine with psychedelics.

As for dosages, it will vary on what combination you're taking.

Be safe!

 

[Ibex-torncrow]

I have been researching compounds which actually seem to fit into the category of both nootropics as well as psychedelics.

Particularly 2,5-dimethoxy-4-methyl-phenethylamine and it's ethoxy homologues.

Darrell lemaire published a booklet regarding these phenethylamine nootropic compounds titled
"Certain Exotic Transmitters as SMART PILLS or Compounds that Increase the Capacity for Mental Work in Humans
A story about LAZAR as told by Hosteen Nez"

2,5-diethoxy-4-methyl-phenethylamine appears to retain mosy of the smart pill activity, while greatly reducing psychedelia...

The below is an excerpt form lemaires publication:

As mentioned earlier, this compound was synthesized to eliminate some unwanted side effects in some individuals and yet retain the smart pill activity. In this respect the effort was very successful and this compound was used more than 2CD for general learning tasks. The dosage used with this material was a little wider than for 2CD and was generally in the range of 5 to 15 milligrams orally. Again each individual selected their own dosage based on usage, optimum results and intuition
https://erowid.org/chemicals/2cd/2cd_smartpills1.shtml

 

[Volsam]

I have been researching compounds which actually seem to fit into the category of both nootropics as well as psychedelics.

Particularly 2,5-dimethoxy-4-methyl-phenethylamine and it's ethoxy homologues.

^^^ Man, I wish 2C-D and 2C-x's in general would be offered on the same terms as nootropics...8)
Personally though, I dont think most PEA's would do a great job as a nootropic compared to microdosing LSD and it's homologues.

 

[Hyperflux]

I'm kind of curious about using a nootropic stack to counteract what I perceive to be negative cognitive side effects of dissociative abuse. Any insight on this matter?

My understanding is that nootropics, particularly racetams make dissociatives feel sober. Correct me if I'm wrong, those are just the posts I've read.

I have been using various (I have tried about 90% of all commercially available nootropics) noots for more than 5 years so I have tons of experience with them.

I've posted some info about some of the most popular ones in MDMA forums and will repost it here if anyone is interested:

Besides enhancing the roll and reducing neurotoxicity nootropics might give you the worst headache of your life lasting for hours, ruin your trip, cause lots of anxiety and actually be the cause of neurotoxicity if improperly combined with powerful psychoactive drugs.

I recommend to get the feel for nootropics you choose to use by themselves first to see how your body-brain-mind-emotions react to them. And when combining with psychoactives, always start with lower dosage for noots!

Of all the nootropics and smarts to go with MDMA and psychedelics I'd recommend:
Oxyracetam (increases visual effects, adds to hypomania and sense of well-being),
Aniracetam (increases visual effects, increases auditory effects, adds to sense of well-being),
Piracetam (increases visual effects, adds to hypomania and sense of well-being),
Phenibut (adds to hypomania and sense of well-being, relaxes),
Agmatine (adds to sense of well-being, relaxes, soothes).

These three are pretty good by themselves and could be used with psychedelics and molly but with more caution than the other noots and with a lot smaller amounts if taking with psychedelics:
Huperzine A (increases visual effects, increases dreaming and imagination),
Phenylpiracetam (greatly ad ds to hypomania and sense of well-being, speedy),
Pramiracetam (greatly adds to hypomania and greatly increases memory recollection).

Magnesium is not a nootropic in a classical way but still considered by some and it is mild vasodilator and a weak NMDA antagonist (the most famous NMDA-antagonist is Ketamine), I find it beneficial before, during and after trips.

Noopept is too powerful even by itself and may cause a really bad headache for hours when mixed with psychs, stims or molly. I suggest to never mix Noopept with any psychoactives. It is pretty effective in what it's doing though and I consider it to be the most efficient nootropic in terms of cost/effect.

Sunifiram is another very effective noot, with speedy and clear effects, much more effective than Noopept, but very unresearched and pricey IMO. I would never recommend combining Sunifiram with psychedelics.

Tianeptine is not a nootropic, it is an atypical anti-depressant, so it has to be treated as such, like a prescription drug. It will increase effects of lots of drugs but I have a feeling that it will not be healthy. I advise not to mix Tianeptine with psychedelics.

As for dosages, it will vary on what combination you're taking.

Be safe!

Great response, thanks! I haven't found Noopept to to intensify a trip as much as you say, I've used 5mg intransally (spray). So far my favorite nootropic (with and without psychedelics) has been N-Acetyl Semax Amidate but it's so damn expensive . I would like to try intranasal insulin sometime soon.

 

[Xorkoth]

I have seen anecdotal reports of tianeptine potentiating the effects of LSD, though haven't tried it myself.

Tianeptine isn't a nootropic. It acts on serotonin and opiate receptors. It could potentiate a psychedelic, perhaps, not sure.

Ya, not to derail but tianeptine by itself is no good IMO. I've tried the sodium and sulphate forms from multiple reputable vendors. The horror stories of sodium addiction and chronic dosing are enough to deter me from messing with it much.

a small dose of phenibut would probably ease the nerves.

I admittedly don't know much about nootropics.

Tianeptine causes addiction but it has nothing to do with sodium, it's because it acts on opiate receptors. It causes opiate addiction basically.

Phenibut doesn't potentiate psychedelics but it does pair extremely well, basically it provides its base level of ease and euphoria, which the psychedelic happens on. So the trip tends to be more euphoric and social, without really detracting from the content at all. One of my favorite combos honestly.

 

[FractalGenie]

My understanding is that nootropics, particularly racetams make dissociatives feel sober. Correct me if I'm wrong, those are just the posts I've read.



Great response, thanks! I haven't found Noopept to to intensify a trip as much as you say, I've used 5mg intransally (spray). So far my favorite nootropic (with and without psychedelics) has been N-Acetyl Semax Amidate but it's so damn expensive . I would like to try intranasal insulin sometime soon.

I wouldn't recommend combining Sunifiram with Psychs, however I personally appreciated it. My favorite is Paracetam though. certain Stacks (that an individual is experienced with) +DMT may bring some profound elements of linearity to the table. Also helps memory of the experience.. For me anyways. Volsam's post is on point if you ask me

quoted the wrong post, my bad

 

[Solipsis]

For sunifiram, while I certainly found that it enhances some of my skills to an amphetamine+ level, it can wear you down a bit and the reports that suggest it can wear you down harmfully hard scare me... so no I would not combine it, I don't take it as I have no need with a dexamph script, but without that I would only take it once in a while to try and really boost myself to extraordinary levels.

IMO many other racetams just improve on piracetam and reduce the huge dosages needed, I assume you mean that and not piracetamol.

I'm happy to never had a headache from nootropics so bad that I wanted to kick myself in the balls to distract from it, although I have had a minor one here and there. Mind that choline intake I would say! Although I have never actually skipped taking choline sources let alone then contract ballbusting headaches from it...

 

[Ibex-torncrow]

^^^ Man, I wish 2C-D and 2C-x's in general would be offered on the same terms as nootropics...8)
Personally though, I dont think most PEA's would do a great job as a nootropic compared to microdosing LSD and it's homologues.

In most situations I would agree, LSD and mescaline can have amazing nootropic abilities at low dose as well as in psychedelic dose, this happens in two ways, as described by the research below:

A significant instance of problem solving resulted in a Nobel Prize for Kary Mullis. Until the invention of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR), a common problem in biology was that biological samples were often too small to analyze, but Mullis solved that and won a Nobel Prize. He described how LSD aided him in doing so.

"PCR's another place where I was down there with the molecules when I discovered it and I wasn't stoned on LSD, but my mind by then had learned how to get down there. I could sit on a DNA molecule and watch the [indistinct] go by. . . . I've learned that partially I would think, and this is again my opinion, through psychedelic drugs . . . if I had not taken LSD ever would I have still been in PCR? I don't know, I doubt it, I seriously doubt it." (Mullis 1998; "Horizon: Psychedelic Science" 1997)

From the point of view of psychedelic cognitive studies, Mullis's example is noteworthy because he did not have his insight while taking psychedelics but instead used psychedelics to increase his ability to visualize, then transferred that cognitive skill back to his ordinary mindbody state. This confirms the idea that some skills learned in one state can be transferred to another. Transference and nontransference between mindbody states is itself a cognitive process that deserves study — learning to remember dreams, for example. Learning to increase this flow, if it is possible, would increase access to stores of information and possibly to new cognitive skills.

Unlike Mullis's experience of transferring a skill back to his ordinary state, most instances of psychedelic problem solving occur while the person's cognitive processes are psychedelically augmented. This is most clearly illustrated by "Psychedelic Agents in Creative Problem Solving: A Pilot Study," by Willis Harman, a professor of engineering economic systems, and a team of researchers at Stanford Research Institute. Working with twenty-seven men who were "engaged in various professional occupations, i.e., engineers, physicists, mathematicians, architects, a furniture designer, and a commercial artist and had a total of 44 professional problems they wanted to work on," the Stanford Research Institute team divided them into groups of three or four and gave them 200 milligrams of mescaline, followed by a quiet period of listening to music. Then they had snacks and discussed their problems with their group. Following this they spent three or four hours working alone on their problems. As a result of psychedelic enhancement, the practical results were impressive http://realitysandwich.com/170866/expanding_cognitive_studies/

In these cases the compounds were consumed in active, but low doses, however other research confirms the efficacy of improvising.

Though I disagree in the sense that I feel many of these novel and relatively unexplored phenethylamines and alpha-methyl-phenethylamines have equal ( if not higher ) potential than classic psychedelics or modern nootropics, look at 2,5-diethoxy-4-methyl-phenethylamine, this is the 2,5-diethoxy homologue of 2C-D (2,5-dimethoxy-4-methyl-phenethylamine) this compound seems to retain much of the nootropic activity of 2C-D while inducing very little of the intoxication or psychedelia.

2,5-dimethoxy-4-methyl-phenethylamine itself is fairly amazing, here, I will post some excerpts from Darrell lemaire's "smart pills" pamphlet:

2CD
* John: Graduate student in chemistry on Ph.D. track.

Having heard of the smart pills from Carl, John wanted to use some for his German studies. He was already auditing some of the first semesters and when he took the fourth semester he used smart pills for pre-exam studies and received an "A" in the course. He got a copy of Carl's short dictionary of German chemical terms and completed his language requirements. John felt that the use of smart pills was of great value in studying for the German and also for the cumulative exams which cover all of the chemistry which the professors feel the student should know. However, after that time, the Chemistry Department decided to plug the loophole and required students to take all four semesters of German.

2CD
* Bea: Degree in music, but not a professional musician.

She fully enjoyed music and toyed around with composing for her own pleasure. One evening while on a smart pill, she wanted to hear a certain song by one of the popular artists. She went over to the large shelf of LPs, and without even looking, pulled out the one she wanted. She started it playing and went over to the piano and played right along with the music. Since she could only play by sight reading sheet music prior to this event she was quite surprised. She played several other pieces by ear that same evening and had no problem playing by ear from then on.

2CD
* Steven: University professor, age 65.

I ingested 10 mg before approaching a new project. At a conference last year an overseas friend and I co-chaired a symposium. It received such positive feedback that she suggested we co-edit a book on the topic. So my project was to write a proposal to send to prospective publishers. The writing was surprisingly fluid. I had innovative ideas that I had not conceptualized previously. I worked on my word processor, and the next day found that I had to do very little editing before sending the book proposal to four publishers, one of whom recently accepted it. Good material for creative thinking and writing.

2CD
* Meg: Medical student.

She felt that the 10 mg regular starting dose was too much for studying, and seemed to act as a intensifier of sexual sensations. While making love on the material she felt wonderfully sexy and had very intense orgasms. One half a tablet (5 mg) was just about right on most occasions for reading and studying. She reported a pleasant, controlled energy and studied because she felt like it and had very good results from the effort. A follow up discussion ten years later disclosed that she felt the use of 2CD had increased the acuity of her hearing and that now ten years later there was no diminishing in that effect. For most of Meg's studies she used 2CD-DiEt, a compound which had fewer distracting components to it for her particular physiology (more on her use of this compound later under its own listing).
https://erowid.org/chemicals/2cd/2cd_smartpills1.shtml

The full pamphlet can be read in the link following the excerpts.

Your higher neurotransmitters, the compounds which induce and facilitate higher neuro-functioning, are either tryptamines or phenethylamines, fir example serotonin is 5-hydroxy-tryptamine, melatonin is N-acetyl-5-methoxy-tryptamine, pinoline is 6-methoxy-tetrahydro-beta-Caroline, dopamine is 3,4-dihydroxy-phenethylamine, epinephrine is N-methyl-beta-hydroxy-3,4-dihydroxy-phenethylamine ( beta-hydroxy-N-methyl-dopamine), norepinephrine is 3,4,beta-trihydroxy-phenethylamine (beta-hydroxy-dopamine), and so on...

Again, these endogenous tryptamine and phenethylamine neurotransmitters are the compounds which generate and facilitate cognition and higher brain functioning, so if one is trying to improve or enhance cognition, memory, performance, creativity, and other higher brain functions, I feel tryptamine (and lysergamide) and phenethylamine compounds would be a great place to start. Of coarse there are many other effective nootropics, however my interests rest with tryptamine and phenethylamine compounds.

We need chemists with courage to synthesize and explore these compounds with well educated and highly motivated research groups, much in the same way that Darrell lemaire, or sasha shulgin, or even Casey hardison with his 2C-t-7 survey did.

In the Middle Ages, the church forbade dissection of human bodies, and medical students would visit
battlefields and the gallows at night, and steal the bodies of victims of war and executed prisoners, in order to learn human physiology. Where that spirit of scientific courage has gone, I don't know; but there is very little of it left. Now, people feed at the trough of government grants and enormous corporate research budgets, and the idea of actually pursuing truth, or attempting to understand the phenomenon in an unbiased fashion, divorced from its commercial, social and political dimensions, is unheard of
-terence McKenna

The fact that the value of these compounds has not been recognized by the culture at large is no excuse to give up synthesizing, perusing, researching, and experimenting with them. I'm not suggesting that just anybody try this, there are risks beyond the legal, but for those highly intelligent, highly skilled and well trained chemists and researchers out there, it's a sacrifice in many ways to do such work, but it's a sacrifice worth making.

 

[>Marquis<]

Tianeptine isn't a nootropic. It acts on serotonin and opiate receptors. It could potentiate a psychedelic, perhaps, not sure.

Actually, IIRC it increases levels of BDNF and NGF as well as having some glutamatergic activity (AMPAkine? Can't recall) so, while it isn't classed as a nootropic, I personally believe it would have positive effects on cognition when used in therapeutic doses daily. It certainly feels like it would be excitotoxic when abused for opiod effects. Very creepy side effects.