Gabapentinoids Need advice

[BourbonMac]

I've been tapering Gabapentin for awhile, down to 300mg. I only have 300mg left, my re-fill isn't eligible until the 17th though and my doctor ignored my request to re-fill it. I don't know why I ran out early, but this CVS has been known for shorting me on prescriptions. Otherwise I know there were maybe 2 or 3 times I mistakenly took an extra 300mg before bed forgetting I already had.

I'm not going to be able to sleep at all for the 5 days after tonight. My doctor is such an idiot, I mean I'm sure a lot of you have read about his weird behavior towards me. I just don't know what to do. I even tried calling CVS and they hang up on me every time, like it's possibly the worst CVS I've ever been to but it's the only one in town.

I do happen to have some phenibut capsules. I don't really enjoy the feeling of phenibut very much. I liked it when I was first dabbling with it around December but I started hating the effects after I don't know, 6 times of taking it recreationally. I'm assuming this works very similar in nature to Gabapentin and if I just took one 300mg capsule at bedtime it should help? I know both of these have lowered effects when taken with magnesium and I absolutely noticed this one of the times I took around 1.2g of phenibut.

Wikipedia says this, I'm too flustered to even know what it means: "The α2δ-1 and α2δ-2 subunits are the binding site for gabapentinoids. This drug class includes two anticonvulsant drugs, gabapentin (Neurontin) and pregabalin (Lyrica), that also find use in treating chronic neuropathic pain. The α2δ subunit is also a binding site of the central depressant and anxiolytic phenibut, in addition to actions at other targets" -- it says this "α2δ subunit" in general, does that mean it hits both α2δ-1 and 2?

I did eventually go to CVS myself because they kept dropping my calls. They said talk to the on-call doctor, well, my on-call doctors do not do anything with prescriptions and are total cunts, like the worst attitude ever. They'll just be like "call back on Monday" like bitch what the hell are you even there for if that's all you have to say to people? Hang up and call 911 or don't call us, basically.

It would seem Phenibut is my only option assuming it even hits all the same receptors as Gabapentin. This sucks, my anxiety is out of control right now. I fucking asked him yesterday to fill it, and I asked him 20 minutes ago. They close at 4 but he's usually there till at least 4:30ish especially on Friday. I thought going without Valium for about 5 days was bad, but coming off Gabapentin is WAY harder for me. I basically cold turkeyed the Valium and had mild restless legs, it was more rebound anxiety but some weed is the ticket to that.

Been taking 15mg on average for a year or so, having started on 5-10. The Gabapentin 600mg on average since late 2020, briefly increased to 900 from like February to April due to increase in severe headaches I've suffered from. This is where I think tapering it became much harder. If I'd stayed on 600 I'd likely be fine. In fact I definitely would've, back when I was on that dose, I'd often go days without taking more than 100mg let alone any so that days later I could enjoy a staggered 1200mg or something because it can provide a nice uplifting feeling.

tl;dr: Can't get Gabapentin filled for a week and I need it now. I want to know if Phenibut, as much as I dislike it will have any chance of making this go away, if it's similar enough.


Update: yeah there's ZERO doubt they stole some of my Gabapentin. I only took extra twice, I should not be out given it was filled July 24th. My doctor is a dumbass either way, I'd been getting 180 of them before and I told him like, that's all I'll need to completely taper off but instead he just lowered the quantity to 60 or something. But yeah... they DEFINITELY took some of this, there's this one tweaker looking lady who works there and I've suspected it was her for awhile. Even my Valium is short, I closely monitor how much I take every night and I'm supposed to have 12 left, I have 10. Never made any errors in reporting my doses, I'm extremely precise about it. I need a new pharmacy CVS or better yet to just try Walgreens from now on or something.

 

[BourbonMac]

Bumping even though I know I probably shouldn't, I'll only do it this once though. I just want to know if it's possible for Phenibut to alleviate my withdrawals even if I just take one capsule for a few days. I'll probably have stuff sent to a CVS in Ankeny Iowa where I stay for 2 days before going to Omaha Nebraska.

 

[AlsoTapered]

you won't like my answer.... but 97% of gabapentin is excreted by the kidneys unchanged. A polydrug user I know (not a friend) said he managed to stay wasted for a week off just 6 pills by drinking his own pee. Obviously don't do this - the kidneys are removing many toxins and drinking urine will simply concentrate them.

He's 56 and looks about 80. He takes EVERYTHING.

 

[BourbonMac]

Yeah no way I'd do that. I just want to know if low dose Phenibut for a few days would take care of the withdrawal. I'll see how I do with 100mg tonight but I don't expect well.

 

[negrogesic]

Gabapentin is more potent than phenibut by weight, so if you're trying to substitute phenibut for 300mg of gabapentin you'll need more than 300mg of phenibut. 100mg of phenibut won't do much of anything. You'll need a good 8-10 times that amount to roughly substitute for 300mg of gabapentin.

Also, not to diminish anyone's suffering here, but the title of this thread feels a little on the excessive/alarmist side. I mean what constitutes a "big crisis" is relative and subjective, but it sort of implies a medical emergency, or particularly desperate situation etc. At least that's what I thought when i saw the title .

Fortunately in this case the lack of gabapentin is only for a handful of days, and you have a crudely equivalent substitute that can be used as a replacement, albeit somewhat imperfectly (namely due to phenibut's dirty side-effect profile). Actually, in my personal experience, phenibut will quite readily relieve gabapentin withdrawal symptoms, particularly with regard to gabapentin withdrawal induced insomnia. Yet due to the more complex mechanism of action however, the reverse isn't quite true, since gabapentin only partially relieves phenibut withdrawal.

 

[BourbonMac]

Yeah that's my bad on the title, I just had a wicked panic attack in this moment. I did fine on 200mg last night, I only have 100mg left. I *should* be able to get a refill sent for Monday or Tuesday. As much as I don't like phenibut it seems like it'd be my only option, although I have 1 10mg Ambien and 10mg of Valium I can take tomorrow night. I leave in around 5 hours. I think I'd start with 600mg Phenibut or something, although I'd prefer to just take 1 300mg capsule. At this point I'm basically able to get through a night on 200mg of Gabapentin, so I could honestly be in the clear for bad withdrawals at this point. Once I started taking it only right before bed, I was able to get it down. Can't wait to be off of it, maybe this trip will help me get off for good. I'd like to lessen the Valium as well as take a bit of a T break with THC to see just how much my tinnitus can improve without it, but it's hit or miss. I've gotten overly high some nights and the next day my ears were quiet, but usually they're worse. Too bad, this stuff works better than anything I could be prescribed. I've never and don't intend to take Xanax but I'd probably hate it compared to old faithful Mary Jane

 

[kiely]

Oh yes. Thank you bud gods. And I use my prayers for serenity too.

 

[kiely]

Yeah that's my bad on the title, I just had a wicked panic attack in this moment. I did fine on 200mg last night, I only have 100mg left. I *should* be able to get a refill sent for Monday or Tuesday. As much as I don't like phenibut it seems like it'd be my only option, although I have 1 10mg Ambien and 10mg of Valium I can take tomorrow night. I leave in around 5 hours. I think I'd start with 600mg Phenibut or something, although I'd prefer to just take 1 300mg capsule. At this point I'm basically able to get through a night on 200mg of Gabapentin, so I could honestly be in the clear for bad withdrawals at this point. Once I started taking it only right before bed, I was able to get it down. Can't wait to be off of it, maybe this trip will help me get off for good. I'd like to lessen the Valium as well as take a bit of a T break with THC to see just how much my tinnitus can improve without it, but it's hit or miss. I've gotten overly high some nights and the next day my ears were quiet, but usually they're worse. Too bad, this stuff works better than anything I could be prescribed. I've never and don't intend to take Xanax but I'd probably hate it compared to old faithful Mary Jane

I wonder if your tinnitus is an underlying condition of something. I had to go to the hospital from a headache that was so bad my eye was still swollen for three days. I would projectile vomit over the porch rail. Yeah. Probably nerves. Ends. Maybe inflammation from drugs.

But I tried to think them away with serenity as much as possible. It worked but I also quit xanax. It was so obvious and everyone said that's what might have did it. But I was really withdrawing from lot's of norco usage too.

Also some others will just get tinnitus and they don't know what from.

Yours sounds like very severe symptoms. Who knows what it is from. I really hope the short term withdrawals won't trigger it. It could be an underlying condition of that. My headaches were caused from that. Get better. Alright.

 

[althea16]

What are the symptoms of gabapentin withdrawal?
Are they similar to opioid withdrawals?
And for how long must one take it and how much gabapentin needs to be taken to cause withdrawals?
I need to know if I’m playing with fire!

 

[BourbonMac]

Restless legs for me and anxiety is about it. It kind of feels similar to opioid withdrawal but is more dangerous since you can seize and die if you come off a high dose too fast. Nobody knows how long you need to take it to get withdrawals. Some people don't get them at all, some people do. Those who have abused massive amounts have had withdrawals on par with benzos, but you could only take it maybe 2x a week to get a good effect like that recreationally

 

[kiely]

Gabapentin gives me withdrawals. And dosing it is really messed up. Another words it's an acquired taste. Not mine. But it will do for a little while. From now on I'm going for the Pregabs. Gabapentin for me is well it could be worse but it's just not better either. I would say . . it does not too well. At least it will be a work up to the Pregab. .. . And then of course, I will need the gabapentin more than ever ! That is all.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Phenibut also has GABA action as well as the calcium channel blocking gabapentin does. So, that's kind of adding a new addiction.
I'm guessing, but if it was me I would go onto the lowest amount of Phenibut possible to alleviate symptoms somewhat and start tapering it quickly right away.
People say they get physically hooked on Phenibut in a week.
300mg gabapentin a day isn't too much, so that's in your favor.

Good luck, guy. You can do this.

 

[ĐmantuNJofra]

People say they get physically hooked on Phenibut in a week.

This happens but it's only a physical rebound anxiety as a bit frightening due to change of perception from: I feel wonderful and now just not!

It kind of feels similar to opioid withdrawal but is more dangerous since you can seize and die if you come off a high dose too fast.

This is a bit overreach, gabapentin is even not that good antiseizure med as it can in fact be responsible for it while under higher or even moderate doses.

I know person can be very irritable while tapering pregabs/gabapentin or if when they run out....I believe when you say that doc didn't push through your gabapentin,
Is it that easy for pharmacist in US to steal meds?
Aren't there supposed to be some kind of triple checks and if it is just as you did I see change pharmacy

Tinnitus will get worse on gabapentin or pregabalin as when drug start to et effect I always have it and it just becomes more bearable or I just watch movie, work or listen to music.

And for how long must one take it and how much gabapentin needs to be taken to cause withdrawals?
I need to know if I’m playing with fire!

it depends: if you are prescribed or you are playing rec.
Yeah and gabapentin and pregabalin are mental very mental to come off of as benzos only slightly help with withdrawals as the other way works better they help with benzo withdrawal or opioid even more.

They are dangerous and serious drugs on prescription but they can be very helpful for some people as anything else doesn't, pregabalin more than gabapentin
as they have mood-lifting, sleep inducing, muscle relaxant and neuropathic pain releiving properties.

Tapering and baclofen which is also addictive helps with withdrawals

 

[AlsoTapered]

I truly believe that a short course (7-10 days) of pregabalin would be an effective treatment for people who are alcohol dependent. Unlike benzodiazepines it stops cravings. I'm VERY doubtful of gabapentin and pregabalin being given long-term as they quite evidently cause a severe abstinence syndrome in spite of the discovers having won The Nobel Prize, a key element being that it was NOT dependence-forming.

I was given first gabapentin and then pregabalin for neuropathic pain. The first time I took them, I fell over! I believe loss of balance is a known side-effect so prescribing it to someone who uses crutches to walk is an amazing lack of forethought on the behalf of the doctor involved (who has since left the field under somewhat vague circumstances).

FYI pregabalin was developed further into 3-methyl pregabalin that is x3 the potency of the parent drug. It's questionable as to if it would ever make it to market (now we know the dangers of pregabalin) but given that pregabalin only costs $312/Kg and the derivative is produced in an almost identical manner (one precursor is changed), it WOULD theoretically make a 'street drug' if a single 100mg tablet could be sold for $2. Not a happy thought.

 

[sekio]

Phenibut is not an effective substitute for gabapentin, I don't think. It does have some affinity but gabapentin blows it out of the water.[ref]
> In one study, the affinity (Ki) values of gabapentinoids for the α2δ subunit expressed in rat brain were found to be 0.05 μM for gabapentin, 23 μM for (R)-phenibut, 39 μM for (S)-phenibut,

So, gabapentin is 460x stronger than R-phenibut, 780x stronger than S-phenibut, so logically 620x stronger than racemic/plain phenibut.
And gabapentin is dosed at hundreds of milligrams.

If phenibut has any useful activity it is likely through its activity at the GABA_B receptor, and it is comparatively weak, compared with the normal ligand, baclofen. Baclofen has almost 30x the affinity at GABA_B than phenibut. (An effective dose in many is 5-10mg orally - phenibut is approx. 250mg)

Also, I don't know if I am strange or what, I was prescribed 600mg gabapentin 4x daily for nerve pain, had no perceptible effects, and could stop it cold turkey no problem. In fact, even optimizing my BA by taking repeated small doses (to avoid saturating the amino acid transporter responsible for absorbing it into the blood), in my case 300mg every 30-40 mins for up to a total dose of 2400mg over a few hours: nothing. I literally could not tell the difference between abuse doses, the ridiculous doses I was on daily, and not taking it at all. So I simply decided not to take it. (And yes, my capsules were authentic gabapentin, a friend of mine who loves the stuff confirmed it was active.)

 

[BourbonMac]

So it's been days without any at all, I want to say I'm about in the clear and maybe could just not go back on it at all although my sleep could've been better. I never did take any Phenibut. Am out of Valium though... at a pretty bad time. Was trying to have a good time at the Iowa State Fair with my cousin today and my stomach was being brutally assaulted all day. I get into Nebraska tomorrow and should hopefully be able to get it filled.

 

[negrogesic]

Phenibut is not an effective substitute for gabapentin, I don't think. It does have some affinity but gabapentin blows it out of the water.[ref]
> In one study, the affinity (Ki) values of gabapentinoids for the α2δ subunit expressed in rat brain were found to be 0.05 μM for gabapentin, 23 μM for (R)-phenibut, 39 μM for (S)-phenibut,

So, gabapentin is 460x stronger than R-phenibut, 780x stronger than S-phenibut, so logically 620x stronger than racemic/plain phenibut.
And gabapentin is dosed at hundreds of milligrams.

I'm not sure the calculation is as straightforward as that, but in any event, the analgesic action of at least the R enantiomer does seem to be the product of its action on VDCC's:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S009130571530037X

Also, it may be that there is more to gabapentin itself, particularly with regard to anxiolysis, etc:

https://www.thelancet.com/article/S2352-3964(19)30192-6/fulltext

 

[althea16]

Also, it may be that there is more to gabapentin itself, particularly with regard to anxiolysis, etc:

What does this mean in layman’s terms?
Is this a good thing?

 

[ĐmantuNJofra]

What does this mean in layman’s terms?
Is this a good thing?

subjectively and effect-wise, meaning. Will this make me feel better, will it ease withdrawal and will I be able to sleep?
lets' say that I'm left without pregabalin on Monday and I know that my next fill is on Friday.

You say to me. I have here 10gr of gabapentin and 10gr of Fluorophenibut or even HCL. You can choose one

I would take Phenibut and space it like 2gr 5x till my script comes through and will be sure that even with slight side-effects I would feel better, it would ease my withdrawal and i could sleep on Phenibut while gabapentin will only help me in that like staggering almos to 10gr in 48hrs with little to ne effect.

But that is me as I will always will phen no matter the tolerance from pregabalin and I have a very long experience with gabapentinoids as benzodiazepines and GHB in the past.

Those are the best laymans terms or just type: phenibut and pregabalin bluelight.org, or preabalin withdrawal bl.org or reddit or any forum, also read experiences from erowid and here in OD hit the gabapentinoid button and read as many as you can.

Try to read pragmatical stories with less emotions involved as we all blame something for our troubles and thus clouding the somewhat what should be helpful info.
Stay safe and try not to take it if you don't need it!

 

[negrogesic]

What does this mean in layman’s terms?
Is this a good thing?

I was just referring to the article that I linked which was exploring a possible biochemical mechanism that may contribute to gabapentin's anti-anxiety effects (https://www.thelancet.com/article/S2352-3964(19)30192-6/fulltext). Neither bad nor good.

Our understanding of how drugs interact with the brain is constantly evolving, and the article I linked might be a small piece of the puzzle with regard to how gabapentin does what it does when it is consumed.