Ethnobotanicals Natural Dissociative Substitutes?

[hellspawn1]

Are there any plants beside salva divinorum, that have anything similar to Ketamine/PCP/MXE?

Being in the disso category all I can think of is fly agaric mushrooms, but it doesn't strike very close to the strange qualities of Ketamine/MXE/PCP.

Do you have any clues?

 

[negrogesic]

None that i can think of off the top of my head that area specifically NMDA type dissociatives and little else. Ethanol can be pretty dissociative at very high doses but not without a host of other actions. Ibogaine is rather dissociative too.

 

[guy1234]

Ayahuasca lol. Obviously intensely psychedelic but certainly very dissociatie in large doses although probably not what you're asking for

Fly agaric, datura etc are deleriants and therefore going to be pretty dissociative in effect

But no I can't think of anything really. Wish there was

 

[bingey]

Fly agaric is not a deliriant

Feels like a mix between ketamine and ethanol

 

[izo]

well theres thc, pretty dissociating for me without tolerance.

 

[guy1234]

Fly agaric is not a deliriant

Feels like a mix between ketamine and ethanol

Oh really? Was always under the impression it was. My bad

 

[plumbus-nine]

There's a NMDA antagonistic alkaloid which occurs in kratom, unfortunately not in relevant amounts, but also in some other species and maybe one of the chemistry masterminds here might be able to come up with an extraction method. Ibogaine is among other effect categories also a dissociative but doesn't sound too enjoyable, also risky for the heart, that risk will be carefully elaborated. The kratom one, unfortunately forgot its name and because only trace amounts, not usually listed as an ingredient. Possible that it's dirty / hitting other targets with similar potency, at least mitragynine is pretty dirty but I'd definitely give that alkaloid a try if we could extract it.

Not a natural one but a substitute with high safety margin is memantine. Noscapine as a poppy alkaloid has seemingly been abused but I took a whole box of noscapine pills and got zero effects.

 

[guy1234]

There's a NMDA antagonistic alkaloid which occurs in kratom, unfortunately not in relevant amounts, but also in some other species and maybe one of the chemistry masterminds here might be able to come up with an extraction method. Ibogaine is among other effect categories also a dissociative but doesn't sound too enjoyable, also risky for the heart, that risk will be carefully elaborated. The kratom one, unfortunately forgot its name and because only trace amounts, not usually listed as an ingredient. Possible that it's dirty / hitting other targets with similar potency, at least mitragynine is pretty dirty but I'd definitely give that alkaloid a try if we could extract it.

Not a natural one but a substitute with high safety margin is memantine. Noscapine as a poppy alkaloid has seemingly been abused but I took a whole box of noscapine pills and got zero effects.

Off topic slightly but can you confirm what ibogaines effects actually are? Have read many reports which all sound pretty subjective. Is it a psychedelic? Dissociative?

 

[4meSM]

Off topic slightly but can you confirm what ibogaines effects actually are? Have read many reports which all sound pretty subjective. Is it a psychedelic? Dissociative?

Ibogaine binds to a bunch of different receptors, I guess you could call it an atypical psychedelic dissociative or something along those lines but it's much more than that, it's a very dirty drug.
From the top of my head it has a moderately high affinity (micromolar range) for nicotinic receptors (A3B4 and A2B4), opioid receptors (kappa and mu), NMDA, serotonin (specially 5HT2A) as well as monoamine transporters and possibly sigma receptors as well...

I'll see if I can find a table showing the different binding affinities later (I'm on my phone right now).

 

[guy1234]

Ibogaine binds to a bunch of different receptors, I guess you could call it an atypical psychedelic dissociative or something along those lines but it's much more than that, it's a very dirty drug.
From the top of my head it has a moderately high affinity (micromolar range) for nicotinic receptors (A3B4 and A2B4), opioid receptors (kappa and mu), NMDA, serotonin (specially 5HT2A) as well as monoamine transporters and possibly sigma receptors as well...

I'll see if I can find a table showing the different binding affinities later (I'm on my phone right

Interesting cheers, that does sound like a dirty mix

are you aware what the "experience" is like?

 

[simstim]

I don't think you should consider salvia a dissociative as it's a kappa agonist (not an nmda receptor antagonist) and in my experience is more different than similar to nmda receptor antagonists, aka dissociatives..I've had so many experiences with salvia and with various dissociatives and have never found them similar in any way.

There are a few natural nmda receptor antagonists in nature like magnesium supplements, and possibly a minor kratom alkaloid or two, but the majority of them are not even a little bit close to the true dissociatives like pcp, ketamine, memantine, dxm, methoxetamine, etc. The natural nmda antagonists which exist are far less potent.

 

[4meSM]

Interesting cheers, that does sound like a dirty mix

are you aware what the "experience" is like?

Never tried it but plenty of other bluelighters have. I've read a few trip reports but I don't really have a reason to take ibogaine myself(at least in the near future), the cardiotoxicity kinda puts me off as well.

Edit: still an interesting drug though, and the fact that it can help some people get over their long-term addictions is cool.

 

[burn out]

High doses of heavy kavas.

 

[izo]

Agmantine and kynurenic acid. then there is hodgkinsine and psychotridine.

 

[plumbus-nine]

I don't think you should consider salvia a dissociative as it's a kappa agonist (not an nmda receptor antagonist) and in my experience is more different than similar to nmda receptor antagonists,

Yeah, salvia is pretty unique - it has a dissociative signature but that's it about the similarities. The differences are far more. I don't buy this kappa, NMDA receptor or dopamine D2 receptor = schizophrenia stuff anymore, when you compare the experience to what people with schizophrenia tell, the similarities are only very superficially.

Only tried tabernanthe iboga once so far, with around 0.5g of ground root in a capsule. Was a weird experience which came in waves, and was rather dysphoric - I will have had some remaining deschloroketamine in my system which might have interacted but this is usually a very euphoric substance for me so the dysphoria definitely came from the iboga. Microdosing ibogaine doesn't work for me. A full dose equates to much more material, it's pretty expensive too and one should better visit an open minded cardiologist before tripping.