My perspective of God

[Yourbaker]

It does ring stupidly doesn't it.

They would have us believe that God would condemn us just to turn around and die for us.

Stupid is as stupid thinks.

It is more sad than funny in the sense that Christians do not look at the immorality of substitutionary atonement and the more enlightened Christian thinkers see that policy as what will kill Christianity.

I would like to reply to this. I can only speak from my perspective so this is IMO.

I take the name christian but I am in a non dual experience. I don't see an issue with the direct line that Jesus drew from himself, to the father, to us. If you believe that Jesus was God you confirm his non dual existence and by extension we are to follow his path as he described his path as "the way".

His death and being a scape goat has nothing to do with God's need for us to be a certain way before we are accepted. We are always accepted unless we wilfully reject God. The death of jesus/god/us on the cross is the bridge that some of us need to find our way back to our path. I don't see it as a requirement on God's part that we must do something. It is a mental requirement for many of us, or at least for me. I have done things that I would never be able to forgive myself for, to live my life in self hate and loathing renders my life pointless. The chance to just let it go as real or unreal as the world may see it has worked for me.

The superlative of Christianity is this invisible bridge that I was able to cross to get back to the place I needed to be to find meaning in my existence. Looking back I can't see the bridge now but without it I would never have gotten here.

So yes I needed Jesus Christ and his death for me to mentally be able to find my way here. It may appear as a catch 22 that the very center of my faith is also not the centre, for me this is the mystery of Christianity.

Perhaps many Christians would disagree with me or not want me to use their word for their religious beliefs but we just don't need more labels.

I am impressed with the gnostic beliefs personally, I am seeking still, your posts have given me reason to take in as much as I can find. Both the OP and you DL

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

I will say I always found it odd, growing up as a Christian, that god would send himself down to be brutally murdered so that he could let us into heaven. Hey, we were really bad, but now that I've sacrificed myself, it's okay, you're good.

It's alright guys, since I tortured and killed my son*, everything you did is forgiven. Makes completely sense.

*I mean, myself?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used againstunintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

Regards
DL

That's because the term christian mystic is an oxymoron.
Mysticism – One who seeks Union with, and understands they are part of, the absolute/god/the non dual
Christian – One who believes they are separate from god, and can only come to god by proxy I.e Jesus
So you can see these two views, within the scope of belief, are pretty much diametrically opposed.
Christian mysticism is a term hobbled together by your fellow christian apologists in an attempt to sell christianity-lite.
Thankfully people see that.

Well put.

Mystics seek God. Christianity is an idol worshiping cult that has found God.

Strange that they can adore a genocidal son murdering God, but hey, that is Christianity. When growing your religion by the sword instead of good deeds, I guess a prick for a God is a good thing.

Gnostic Christianity is the way to go but we lost the God wars when Constantine bought the Orthodox Church.

Regards
DL

If you believe that Jesus was God you confirm his non dual existence and by extension we are to follow his path as he described his path as "the way".

Unfortunately, they wrote too many Jesus' into scriptures and many only see one Jesus and the Church is not quoting the best of the bunch. That one frees one from religion and that is the last thing Christianity wants.

I have done things that I would never be able to forgive myself for, to live my life in self hate and loathing renders my life pointless.

Gnosis and apotheosis take care of that with the insight it provides in terms of showing that we are all products of our environment and basically have no control of that in our formative years.

The superlative of Christianity is this invisible bridge that I was able to cross to get back to the place I needed to be to find meaning in my existence. Looking back I can't see the bridge now but without it I would never have gotten here.

The superlative I see in Christianity, if it can be labelled so, is it showing us what a good God looks like as compared to the genocidal son murderer it tries to sell as good.

Let me go longer on this.

I keep a bible in the house even though I think this quote quitecorrect.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant characterin all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgivingcontrol-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic,homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal,sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The GodDelusion

Then again, I am a Gnostic Christian and know how to read the filth init.

Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian bible reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day andnight; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from asmany POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom though.

You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and revers a lot of theChristian morals.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, isquite immoral for thinking that torturing King David's baby for 6 days beforefinally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil whileChristians think that a good form of justice.

Which group do you think is right?

So yes I needed Jesus Christ and his death for me to mentally be able to find my way here. It may appear as a catch 22 that the very center of my faith is also not the centre, for me this is the mystery of Christianity.

Strange wording.

It all happens in your mind. You are not to kill Jesus, or if you do have him resurrect, and have him push your present Father Complex God off his judgment seat by taking it yourself and acquiring your Christ mind.

That process looks something like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if thereforethine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come untohim, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinateto be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn amongmany brethren.

I am impressed with the gnostic beliefs personally, I am seeking still, your posts have given me reason to take in as much as I can find. Both the OP and you DL

I read about 8 religions in some depth when I did my main research years back. I saw that for me, Gnostic Christianity was the way to go as it made mental demand on me that most religions did not. Jesus said he came to bring the sword and not peace, a mental sword of course, and his blade has two sides. Most religions only have one side to their mental swords and that is why they hate all those not of their ilk. Gnostic Christianity is a Universalist religion and part of it's mandate is to push our better morality into other religions if we can.

That is how a religion grows by good deeds instead of doing like Christianity and Islam which have grown themselves by murder and the sword instead of good deeds.

Regards
DL

 

[HypGnosis]

I take the name christian but I am in a non dual experience.

How can you - a subject, call yourself some 'thing' - an object (a christian)? A non dual experience is by definition void of the subject/object dichotomy.

 

[Ninae]

If I identify with anything it's the teachings of the great masters, the Eastern and Western mystery traditions, and the mystical core of all religions which is pretty much the same. Because that is the best I have found and what I see as the path leading to the truth.

I don't get wanting to spend all your time arguing about mainsteam relision because I think that's missing the point. It was never meant to be perfect or bring us the whole truth. It was made up to control the people, be divisive, and serve as a reason to wage wars. That pretty much sums it up.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

If I identify with anything it's the teachings of the great masters, the Eastern and Western mystery traditions, and the mystical core of all religions which is pretty much the same. Because that is the best I have found and what I see as the path leading to the truth.

I don't get wanting to spend all your time arguing about mainsteam relision because I think that's missing the point. It was never meant to be perfect or bring us the whole truth. It was made up to control the people, be divisive, and serve as a reason to wage wars. That pretty much sums it up.

How strange.

You recognize the harm that religions did and continue to do yet chastise me for fighting them.

Have you not heard that for religions to grow, all good people need do is nothing?

I see religions as doing more harm than good. Why would you not want me to address that large evil?

Since misogyny and the denial of women's equality is a huge harm that comes out of Christianity and Islam, why are you not fighting them in the name of all women who are denied full class status in the church?

Regards
DL

 

[Ninae]

Because I don't care for religion.

I think mainstream religion is largely irrelevant, or for the most part just divides us and wastes our time, and is not worth spending the time to argue about. So for the most part I agree. I'd just rather spend my time leading people to the truth than leading them to obsess over untruths...which gets them nowhere.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

Because I don't care for religion.

I think mainstream religion is largely irrelevant, or for the most part just divides us and wastes our time, and is not worth spending the time to argue about. So for the most part I agree. I'd just rather spend my time leading people to the truth than leading them to obsess over untruths...which gets them nowhere.

IOW, you do not care about the great harm religions do.

Nothing quite like ignoring the golden rule where women are concerned and hanging them out to dry.

Your agenda is concerned more for your own benefit than the benefits of others.

If I were to take this quote as good -----
Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; evenas a father the son in whom he delighteth.
Then what you are dong is not showing your love of mankind.

There is a truth for you.

Regards
DL

 

[Ninae]

No, because I believe the truth is what will liberate and benefit people, not focusing on all the ills of religion.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

No, because I believe the truth is what will liberate and benefit people, not focusing on all the ills of religion.

Fantasy enslaves. It does not liberate.

Regards
DL

 

[Yourbaker]

How can you - a subject, call yourself some 'thing' - an object (a christian)? A non dual experience is by definition void of the subject/object dichotomy.

I think I covered that in the first paragraph. If that actually doesn't help first know I'm human, male and gay. If you had trouble with Christian and non dual, gay must just floor you. I'd like to say I have no ego but I think it resurrects with limitless lives or I just can't let it stay dead, yet.

It appears to me now that religions should really be individual and should not include judgement. If you subscribe to any version of original sin it produced knowledge of good and evil so the only outcome of original sin is the ability to judge. If your religion includes judgement of others, not discernment, it might need some careful vetting.

My job is not to vet your beliefs for you, just to offer a view from a different perspective. Most people will take any label I apply to myself and attack the label telling me I'm not who I am. I try not to be an ass hole but sometimes it's hard to say anything without being able to be taken as an ass. I can't make any claims for myself except my experience. You can doubt me and please feel free to throw me some shade.

 

[HypGnosis]

I think I covered that in the first paragraph. If that actually doesn't help first know I'm human, male and gay. If you had trouble with Christian and non dual, gay must just floor you. I'd like to say I have no ego but I think it resurrects with limitless lives or I just can't let it stay dead, yet.

Woah steady with the sarcasm chief, you missed my point.

In a non dual experience it makes no sense to consider yourself a christian, I cant even see how that would be possible. You are in a place beyond association, beyond thoughts about who or what you are. You forget you are even human, let alone christian. You are Pure Witness. Any time you associate yourself as some 'thing' (a human, a christian, a gay baker), you are speaking from a place of duality because you are drawing a distinction between things which you are not.

Ken Wilber goes so far as to say it shouldn't even be considered an experience in itself. I happen to think that's pretty close.

But then “experience” is the wrong word all together. This realization is actually of the nonexperiential nature of Spirit. Experiences come and go. They all have a beginning in time, and an end in time. Even subtle experiences come and go. They are all wonderful, glorious, extraordinary. And they come and they go.

But this nondual “state” is not itself another experience. It is simply the opening or clearing in which all experiences arise and fall. It is the bright autumn sky through which the clouds come and go- it is not itself another cloud, another experience, another object, another manifestation. This realization is actually of the utter fruitlessness of experiences, the utter futility of trying to experience release or liberation. All experiences lose their taste entirely- these passing clouds.

You are not the one who experiences liberation; you are the clearing, the opening, the emptiness, in which any experience comes and goes, like reflections on the mirror. And you are the mirror, the mirror mind, and not any experienced reflection. But you are not apart from the reflections, standing back and watching. You are everything that is arising moment to moment. You can swallow the whole cosmos in one gulp, it is so small, and you can taste the sky without moving an inch.

Ken Wilber (1999). Stages of Spirituality. Collected Works, vol.4, pg.361-362.



You may have reached a transcendent state of mind after having a non dual experience, but from my understanding it is pretty much impossible to even function in a non dual state.

 

[Yourbaker]

^ It is almost impossible as there is no agency and really purpose starts to disintegrate. I would agree with your quote when I reached the point where I first realized my non duality. There is a distinct change when instead of, discarding my christian belief and enter a state of non duality, I embrace, as best as I am able, the Christ consciousness that I profess to understand and believe in and let self fall away. When I actually hold this position, non duality changed in my experience. To me it seemed a natural order in the experience I was having, it feels like insanity tbh. If my guess at insanity is accurate.

I am sorry for my sarcastic remark, my ego regarding my own ability to get my point across is obviously alive and well. You can imagine how many times I've been asked this question, my belief, it isn't very regular, and usually I get a quirky smile or a hysterical laugh response so I think my sarcasm is just my anger, which I have barely under control. I would be first to say I'm a work in progress and not too proud to fail publicly.

But to respond directly to calling myself anything from a non dual position. While in that "state" I am, anything else, I isn't but I am writing here of my experience and the real christianity (I'm saying real to magically jump to a point of not having to prove anything so image real to be the version you think is closest to real by your judgement) I am attempting to embrace suddenly is not at all the horror I thought I was signing on for. Perhaps I have still the long dark night to come and I'll be so unprepared it isn't funny. Oddly I fear only having a possible negative effect on people around me. I can rest easy knowing severe mental illness is covered under my health plan.

I know I'm actually throwing down a ridiculous claim, I still have, so how can I be. Etc. I don't feel I've skipped ahead on my journey or found someone else's path that I must share. If anything I'd rather talk about your path. Gnostic beliefs seem very unencumbered, or less so. I would probably learn far more from you then I can give you here trying to help you see my path. I think it may be impossible to truly see another's path, IMO being able to accept another's belief as theirs-not-mine is about the only universal part of any path, and who knows what we could learn from utopia vs Chaos?

A lot of Christians currently seem to have chaos in mind I'm just a bit outside that camp more in the suddenly woke up and related my experience directly toward my childhood belief system, which I summarily ripped to shreds. In the middle there was still this figure of Christ that just withstood all the gutting. This really isn't that old time religion but I'm just keeping the name or using christinsanity. When I crash and burn maybe I'll arrive at the best of bluelight.

 

[HypGnosis]

^In the non dual all objects have become one, they are not separate, there is no way to point another 'thing'. You claim you are a christian, a human, you can see a tree outside and you are typing on a computer. This is duality. In the non dual you wouldn't be able to see a distinction between those things - you don't see 'things'. By definition it simply is not possible. They have all become One. None

I'm not doubting that your are experiencing something unique, beautiful, transcendent I'm also not trying to belittle your experience either.

I believe it is possible to have a rough, intellectual conception of non duality and live by those principles. I believe this is a healthy perspective, but that in itself is not a state of non duality. The non dual is a specific state of consciousness, one which is almost impossible to communicate from. There are stories of monks supposedly able to communicate from there after 40 odd years of non dual meditation. I think that's possibly true to some extent, but at the same time it is sorta, by definition, false. I suspect the lines get very blurry.

I get that you're feeling an immense connection to all around you. I am too, sometimes too much, it's very intense. But even by the fact we are communicating with each other, means we are in duality. We are one thing talking to another thing.

 

[Yourbaker]

I do understand meditative states, consciousness and to a large degree, the subject matter I am discussing. While I do appreciate your points on the non dual state being a goal line in many paths and near impossible to achieve etc I'm not in that state now nor can I hold it for long, barely reachable.

I understand your protest of my claim so I'll at least address you with some respect as you are, calling me out. I am an old man with a long journey behind me. I have spent the time from 2011-now in long meditative periods currently I am back in society and I do find it much more difficult to meditate here vs remote mountains.

I think I've described only pieces of my experiences here and really no one would care to read them anyway. The shift for me was never understanding how to hold any faith and reach non duality. You do understand that I can't as faith falls away. Still holding faith requires an ego, so it leaves you even further from your goal.

Over long periods I found some beliefs that I held temporarily were needed despite eventually being pointless. It does not diminish the value or use of that belief.

My religious view is a blank canvas. To get here I did use perhaps the only piece of Christianity that does hold water. But that's just IME. I'm happy to answer your questions if you truly don't doubt me or wish to belittle me and actually have some.

 

[HypGnosis]

You said you are a christian having a non dual experience. I've just explained to you that doesn't make sense.

 

[Yourbaker]

I'll assume you replied before I edited my short post. I'm glad you finally got to your point. Again, did you read what I wrote or just skip through and think you understood?

If you read it and understand it your comment becomes irrelevant.

 

[HypGnosis]

While I do appreciate your points on the non dual state being a goal line in many paths and near impossible to achieve

Ok, well I wouldn't quite call it a goal, and I don't think I made the point that the non dual is near impossible to achieve. I actuaally think with the right method, after practice you will get there. But I think you're starting to make more sense, to me at least.

etc I'm not in that state now nor can I hold it for long, barely reachable.

See that makes sense to me. But the first quote I picked you up on sounded like you were walking around in a continual non dual state when you said this

I take the name christian but I am in a non dual experience.

I was probably being over picky and drunk, but sometimes I don't get christians. The reason they need to believe in god, and the idea jesus will take them to heaven, is because they're scared of the true nature of non duality. That's its selling point.

My religious view is a blank canvas. To get here I did use perhaps the only piece of Christianity that does hold water. But that's just IME.

Which piece of christianity was that?

I do understand using some system to get there is beneficial, I just don't see how a christian perspective is really any use.

I'm glad you finally got to your point.

It's probably more true to say you finally understood my point.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

You may have reached a transcendent state of mind after having a non dual experience, but from my understanding it is pretty much impossible to even function in a non dual state.

Dual as compliments or as opposites?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3LJ5HNfNEY

I think that in natural law, dualism, of the Yin Yang type compliments each other.

We are evolving creatures and if we wer only to cooperate and not compete, we would go extinct.

Regards
DL

 

[Yourbaker]

I think what happens a lot on this board is someone like myself, having an ongoing experience that has crossed multiple religious boundaries, will post over a period of time and rely on a previously represented set of beliefs that we'd really rather not have to trot through with every post.

To speed this up, you can look up the superlative of Christianity easily enough I don't need to rewrite it here. I don't think I can honestly do my experience justice in this text based format, I may blog it. I was here seeking some direction and I did find a lot of what I was seeking. To explain my christian claim or why I use that term to describe myself you'd really need to be me but I will try.

By adding christian as a flag to myself I am alienating a large number of people, that is not my intention, I did find my path after finding a christian faith. Understanding Jesus Christ and using christianity was like jump starting my life. I'm not here to preach this, so I keep trying to deflect from this being the center of my input here. I think focusing on a moment in my journey as being everything is very limiting but to ignore or disregard that moment is an equally glaring mistake. I do not believe I would have gotten this far along my path or even on it at all without that kick start. People get bent out of shape when our beliefs are being undermined or even challenged, I'm not trying to do that and I will apologize here for all the toes I'm stepping on.

So moving forward I have no personal validation needs, I'm not trying to fit some formula, I'm just what is now me and i am having an experience. There was a time I felt I had come a long way from my starting point, now I'm excited to see where tomorrow is headed. Currently the experience I'm having is probably more Hindu vs christian in theologies. I just see one thing, I call it spirituality, almost every religion has provided something powerful along with the stories they wrote around the truths.

There is so much to learn and discover, we have communication like never before and the world is listening to itself and learning. If you worry too much about making a tiny mistake you may never move forward. Over this last year I have woke up and am currently in the beginning of a kundalini awakening. If I try to learn ahead, I try to steer this experience and so far the most amazing events were purely spontaneous. Discarding belief has been much more important in moving forward.