[Mushrooms Subthread] Potentiation by Citrus Juice

[webbykevin]

Ok time to add my 5 cents worth.

I have done a number of experiments now with shrooms from the same batch and these are my conclusions so far.

Adding the lemon juice after powdering dried shrooms in a blender made them come on maybe 50% faster than normal chewed dried ones.
It also made me really really sick, I vomited heaps and got crazy gut spasms and my whole body was convulsing and shaking, was one of the worst trips I've had, So as a test I've tried powering them and then just adding to a glass of water and skulling it down in one gulp, the effects were similar to the lemon tek (came on faster) but with none of the vomiting and nausea.

This leads me to the conclusion that the powdering process is the thing that is making the difference, I assume it's because the surface area has been increased and the psilocybin all hits your system at once with the gut taking less time to break down the powder than big chunky chewed bits, the peak did seem to be a tad more intense too but I put this down again to the psilocybin all getting taken up at once, similar to what happens if you eat all your dose at once rather than space it out over an hour or so, taking 3 grams and then taking another 3 grams an hour later is nowhere near as strong as taking the whole 6 grams in one hit so I'm convinced that it's the powdering process that is making all the difference here and not the lemon juice.

Next experiment will be to try soaking whole un-powdered shrooms in lemon juice for an hour and then drinking the whole slimy mess, this will let me compare two 5 gram doses, one chewed dry and one done in the lemon juice. will post my findings.

 

[crOOk]

Ok time to add my 5 cents worth.

I have done a number of experiments now with shrooms from the same batch and these are my conclusions so far.

Adding the lemon juice after powdering dried shrooms in a blender made them come on maybe 50% faster than normal chewed dried ones.
It also made me really really sick, I vomited heaps and got crazy gut spasms and my whole body was convulsing and shaking, was one of the worst trips I've had, So as a test I've tried powering them and then just adding to a glass of water and skulling it down in one gulp, the effects were similar to the lemon tek (came on faster) but with none of the vomiting and nausea.

This leads me to the conclusion that the powdering process is the thing that is making the difference, I assume it's because the surface area has been increased and the psilocybin all hits your system at once with the gut taking less time to break down the powder than big chunky chewed bits, the peak did seem to be a tad more intense too but I put this down again to the psilocybin all getting taken up at once, similar to what happens if you eat all your dose at once rather than space it out over an hour or so, taking 3 grams and then taking another 3 grams an hour later is nowhere near as strong as taking the whole 6 grams in one hit so I'm convinced that it's the powdering process that is making all the difference here and not the lemon juice.

Next experiment will be to try soaking whole un-powdered shrooms in lemon juice for an hour and then drinking the whole slimy mess, this will let me compare two 5 gram doses, one chewed dry and one done in the lemon juice. will post my findings.

Sounds plausible.

 

[MrRustic]

Hi all,
Firstly, I'm new to this forum but have lurked for awhile now.
Secondly, I know this thread is old but I would still like to add my input to the discussion.

I'm almost finished reading the entire thread on Shroomery regarding this topic and I must say, it has been a frustrating experience reading some of the naive and closed minded replies on both sites. I am in no way a scientist but have a degree in psychology and understand the effects of placebo and principles of the scientific process. So here is my 2 cents worth for what it's worth.

1. If you have not experienced something then you can not claim to know whether it works or doesn't work. IMO it is like claiming electricity does not exist because you can not see it. We all know it exists because when you plug an appliance into your socket it begins to work or if you touch a live wire you get a shock.
So for all you people that claim it doesn’t work and have not tried it then, either try it yourself using the proper method or don’t make claim that it can’t, won’t, doesn’t work because unless you’ve attempted the procedure all you can do is “assume” or make wild accusations or assumptions based on your own untested opinions. If you are unwilling to try it (don’t know why you would be) then it’s probably best you don’t make claim to it not working or visa-versa.

2. I have experience in the use of psilocybin containing mushrooms. I do not use them as recreational fun rather, I use them for the journey they create in one's mind to assist in a possible understanding of one self and the connection with life in general. I have eaten them raw, dry, in tea and in freshly squeezed lemon juice (shot glass quantity) with powdered material aswell as powdered into water.

3. It is my understanding that psilocybin is inactive and the active chemical which produces the experience is psilocin. Psilocybin is relatively stable whilst psilocin is unstable when exposed to oxygen but is stable in an acidic environment. Also, an acidic solution is better for extracting and converting the psilocybin to psilocin than other liquids. Something along those lines. So when you ingest the mushroom content your stomach acid begins the process of extracting the psilocybin from the raw material and converting it to the active compound psilocin which is then absorbed into the body.

4. The lemon juice being an acid begins this process before ingestion and also assists in stabilizing the psilicon in the acidic solution. Grinding the mushroom material into a powder form helps to speed this process up and also helps the body to process more of the active ingredients before leaving the stomach and passing through the intestines and thus discarded in the digestion process. Therefore, a greater percentage of the active ingredient is utilized in the body rather than being excreted.

5. There is no scientific method to the experiment on Shroomery because there is no control over the dose, the ingredients used (lemon, orange, absorbic acid, cranberry, grapefruit etc), the setting, the strength of material used, the process and so on. From what I've read, everyone appears to be doing the "experiment" in a different way. For example: Some use more lemon juice than others, some use fresh and others use processed, some mix and drink straight away, some leave to soak for 5, 10, 15 minutes etc, some use different juices, some use other substances with their mushrooms and the list goes on. The experimental process that I've witnessed whilst reading is like "hearsay" because it is inconsistent and flawed. However, this doesn't prove it works or doesn't work it just means the results can not be relied upon or used as absolute evidence of causation or correlation between lemon juice and psilocybin/psilocin.

6. Another issue is tolerance. Some people have tried it only a day or two after already dosing which in theory will decrease the effect due to tolerance. Others have not ingested mushrooms for some time and others are using completely different substances to test the theory. Why would you use a different substance when the whole theory is based around psilocybin/psilocin? What does that prove other than inappropriate results that do not relate to the theory?

7. It is my opinion that there is some type of correlation or interaction based upon my own experience.
I have tried the lemon method with a shot of lemon juice and powdered dry shrooms however, when I tried it I was completely unaware of the alleged claims of increased strength etc. I used the lemon method purely to mask the taste and had not read or heard about any such theory.

8. My belief is this:
a) Powdering the mushrooms increases surface area and makes it easier and quicker for the body to break down the ingested material.
b) Soaking the powdered material in the lemon juice does three things.
1. Begins extraction of the active component
2. Provides a stable environment for the psilocin
3. Creates a faster acting method of delivery (psilocin containing liquid)
c) This in turn reduces the time it takes for the psilocin to react in the body and thus, onset of symptoms is approximately halved.
d) More of the active ingredient is being extracted and used by the body compared to some other methods of ingestion. The experience feels more intense due to the quicker onset and possible higher quantity of useable psilocin made available from the same quantity of ingredients (less is wasted through digestion)
e) Because the effects of the psilocin are brought on quicker, this may cause the person to feel as though the affects are stronger because they are used to experiencing a slow increase in strength over a period of an hour or more.
f) The effects may appear to be shorter in duration but, this may be due to the quicker onset which would usually take an hour or more to reach peak strength. So if you added the extra hour on then, the length of trip would basically be the same.
g) The effects fade off quicker at the end because all or most of the material has been digested and therefore, leaving no active ingredients to linger. Whereas, if you had simply eaten the raw material (dry or wet) it may be possible for traces of the active ingredient to still be in the stomach and therefore, slight fluctuation of effects may still be experienced.

9. For an experiment to work the participant must not know what the expected outcome is going to be otherwise the “placebo” affect may hinder the results. All one needs to tell the participant is that Lemon juice is being used to mask the flavour of the mushroom.

For this experiment to work the following details need to be considered.
a) Participants must not know the expected outcome.
b) The material used must be of same potency in every trial
c) The method of ingestion must be the same for every trial
d) The same ingredients must be used for the test subjects (fresh lemon juice, powdered mushrooms)
e) The mixture must be allowed to soak in the juice for the same amount of time (ie. 15 minutes)
f) Each participant needs to be tested to obtain the correct dose without lemon juice as everyone has different tolerance to psilocin.
g) The environment needs to be the same for each participant
h) The contents of the stomach must be the same (ie. Fasting for ? period of time)
i) Double blind study
j) Control groups
k) And the list goes on.
In order for the results to be reliable and valid, the experiment must be conducted in the same way every time and the method and results must be able to be reproduced by other experimenters or it will be classed as invalid.

10. If you want to perform the experiment online through the forums to acquire a rough conclusion of results then everyone who attempts it needs to do the exact same method which I think should be something as follows.
a) Use you normal dose for the experiment
b) Use powdered dry mushrooms with fresh lemon juice of a shot glass quantity.
c) Do not refrigerate as this has been suspected to impair the results.
d) Let the solution sit for 15 minutes in room temperature.
e) If giving to a friend then tell them you are using the lemon juice to mask the taste of the mushroom. Do not suggest they will get a stronger or more intense trip.
f) Keep the environment as similar as possible (in the peace and quiet of your home or somewhere in nature) not at concerts, clubs etc because that can drastically affect your experience due to the external stimulation.
g) Don’t try to analyse your experience while under the influence. Just try enjoy your experience as you normally would.
h) Don’t use other substances whilst testing the theory
i) Wait at least 2 weeks between trips to avoid tolerance problems

You get the idea anyway. Everyone needs to use the same ingredients (everyone has access to fresh lemons) and the same quantity of lemon juice. It’s also best to use a mushroom that you have a reasonably good idea of its strength.

Anyway, that’s my thoughts. I do believe it does make a difference but I don’t believe it increases potency. I believe it utilises more of the active ingredient which increases the strength but not potency. I also believe the quicker onset gives the perception of a more intense trip but not necessarily a placebo affect. Although I do agree that some people who have tried it are experiencing both a placebo affect and the actual affect. However, those who have not tried it and are claiming its all placebo have no justification for their assumptions because they are only guessing. So rather than making wild assumptions just give it a go and see for yourself. If you decide that you don’t want to then don’t bother arguing its placebo without evidence.

Cheers, hope you can be bothered to take to time to read my thoughts.
Take care and be safe!

 

[vikingkong]

If lemon juice acetylizes things there could be some alteration in the tryptamine structure? However more likely IMO CYP 3A4 enzyme is inhibited strongly by grapefruit juice, not by the citric acid though. A few kinds of oranges and lemons also contain the inhibitory substance, but not all of them, and in more minute quantities. This enzyme is key to metabolizing many drugs...it's very probable that inhibiting these enzymes might affect tryptamine drugs metabolism and the highly variable quantity of inhibitors found in these citrus fruits would account for the range of different outcomes for different people's personal trials. I recently had a subjective experience involving grapefruit juice and a 4-sub-trypt substance which didn't seem quite like harmala/maoi type enhancement, but did feel like something different was happening that was not within the usual variation of subjective experience I'm accustomed to, and was also unpleasant to me, so, caveat experimentor as it were.

 

[Ismene]

1. If you have not experienced something then you can not claim to know whether it works or doesn't work. IMO it is like claiming electricity does not exist because you can not see it. We all know it exists because when you plug an appliance into your socket it begins to work or if you touch a live wire you get a shock.
So for all you people that claim it doesn’t work and have not tried it then, either try it yourself using the proper method or don’t make claim that it can’t, won’t, doesn’t work because unless you’ve attempted the procedure all you can do is “assume” or make wild accusations or assumptions based on your own untested opinions. If you are unwilling to try it (don’t know why you would be) then it’s probably best you don’t make claim to it not working or visa-versa.

The problem with this is the placebo effect. There's entire cultures based on witchcraft medicine, chinese medicine that work on nothing more than the placebo effect. Yes, I've no doubt you could bring me a thousand chinese blokes who will scream that "A teaspoon of rhino horn gave me the best hard-on of my life. How can you disagree if you havn't tried it ah-so?". But I can assure you I ain't going to join in wiping out the black rhinos because some fucknugget doesn't know what the placebo effect is.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Does lime cordial count lol? Just get a shit load like a shopping bags worth and reduce it down to a fine black syrup. Have 15 ml syrup with 15 ml lime cooler 3-4 shots. Hits hard and fast because of the stupidly high alkaloid concentration. When people talk 3 grams or whatnot of dried shrooms I think smart shops in Amsterdam lol, although last time they sold truffles only. Grind a small hand full of philosopher's stone truffles (5-6 grams) into a fine powder and sit it in your gums for 30 minutes, tastes like shit but does absorb quicker. These techniques do work far better than any lemon/juice oj. I ate raw shrooms with oj as it was all I had to wash the taste away and got a standard mushroom trip, a standard trip for probably 1/2 an ounce or more of raw, fresh picked mushroom.

 

[Shamandrums]

Shoomery persons massive increase, not my experience! Of course citrus juice certainly speeds up the digestion & packs the trip slightly shorter, more intense. Ate 3.5 grm of PS at my folks pool...figured I had time to eat a qwik dinner after em washing down with a citrus blend. Yet by 25-30 minutes it was drop the taco & get the 10 minute drive home done, which was nuts each time I closed my eyes, open for that matter. Aidsin digestion but not 3-4x potency or I'd been on 10-12 gs.

 

[Solipsis]

Not digestion neither adsorption imo... Yes to some extent the mushrooms need to be either digested, extracted or pulverized to be able to release the alkaloids from the tissue for absorption - if you got that covered even by merely chewing them (= moderate pulverization, minor extraction ), I don't really think you need digestive aids and they probably wouldn't be so fast or dramatic anyway.

Phenethylamines including MDMA and amph are regularly boosted by taking antacids that basify or neutralize the stomach a bit temporarily and this can help in absorption which is better for those at higher pH. Not certain but for tryptamines it could be different.

Mushrooms are complex:

They contain both psilocybin and psilocin...

psilocin: present in salt form in the mushrooms, I think that makes it a weak acid. It has pKa ~ 9 so it should be readily absorbed and it is generally accepted that it is, I believe. I doubt acidifying the stomach further matters much, the difference between stomach pH and psilocin pKa is so big that you probably already have a near optimal condition naturally.
psilocybin: pretty damn ionized anyway being zwitterionic. Probably takes longer to absorb and is less dramatic / acute in action. I don't think changing pH is going to help it any.

If anything, there may be acid-catalyzed conversion of psilocybin to psilocin while you are preparing it. The psilocin is much better absorbed and has better kinetics. Anti-oxidants may help protect the psilocin from oxidizing.

Maybe the difference is either not big or unreliably achieved by methods used, it's possible time is a factor and matters how long you leave this acidic fruit juice concoction to react. Not only does making this concoction help with the pulverization and extraction previously mentioned, but the conversion might also help.

Best I can explain it that is consistent with both experiences and theory.

 

[THCisgod]

this is the only way i take mush, my stomach is to weak to eat them straight up but when lemon teking i experience no discomfort,they kick in way faster and hit way harder but you won't trip as long in my experience.. i love it and id say the last ten or so times i ate mush i did it, one time i gave it to three people who didn't believe in it and they thought i dosed them w acid on top of the shrooms cuz the timeline and how hard they tripped everyone questioning it should just try it and see for themselves.. noone iv'e done it with has believed and noone has questioned it after.. lol

 

[Minor Calamity]

So you think it's something particular to lemons and doesn't work with any other citrus fruit? It must be the placebolemonine.

You posted in anger about this thread 7 years prior to this comment. Have you no life? If you're still mad enough to make posts like this after all this time, why not just try it yourself to see if your stubborn and ignorant opinion from before was correct?

Oh well, I can't expect to open your eyes if your this set on keeping them closed

 

[Zryson]

Some one should soak powdered shroom into lemon juice and then drink only the lemon juice to see what relative effect it has. I will try that soon.

 

[Xorkoth]

This should be a myth. A lot of people believe it though... so who knows?