Opioids Morphine and Heroin Are Different

[G_Chem]

You hear all the time that heroin is just a pro-drug for morphine, they are the same exact things, etc. People like myself with experience using them both usually say different.

I’ve seen before research that shows 6-monoacetylmorphine (one of heroins active metabolites) hits of a different mu receptor subtype that dihydromorphine also hits on.

I’ve talked many times on how the nearly pure heroin I used to use was an energizing experience similar to oxycodone. I remember nights of non stop talking like we were all on cocaine, it made work a breeze.

Here’s an interesting article I found to back up these statements.

Increased Locomotor Activity Induced by Heroin in Mice: Pharmacokinetic Demonstration of Heroin Acting as a Prodrug for the Mediator 6-Monoacetylmorphine in Vivo

We investigated the relative importance of heroin and its metabolites in eliciting a behavioral response in mice by studying the relationship between concentrations of heroin, 6-monoacetylmorphine (6MAM), and morphine in brain tissue and the effects on locomotor activity. Low doses...

jpet.aspetjournals.org

As you can see they found increased locomotor activity for heroin and 6-MAM but not for morphine at an equimolar dose. This corresponds perfectly with my experience.

Morphine, while euphoric and relaxing, not an opiate I’d snub my nose at or anything.. It’s just lacking in that opiate energy category which is a huge reason I use them.

Looking back at how 6-MAM hits on the same receptor subtype as dihydromorphine. Dihydromorphine also happens to be a fairly stimulating opioid. I’d like to know more about this specific receptor subtype.

Whatever the case, heroin is indeed a different drug to morphine (as are most “pro drugs”) and can’t just be looked at purely as a more bioavailable morphine (unless taken orally.)

-GC

 

[negrogesic]

6-Monoacetylmorphine (6-MAM), Not Morphine, Is Responsible for the Rapid Neural Effects Induced by Intravenous Heroin - PubMed

Heroin rapidly enters the CNS but is quickly metabolized into 6-monoacetylmorphine (6-MAM) and then morphine. Although morphine is often thought to mediate heroin's neural effects, pharmacokinetic data question this view. To further understand the effects of heroin and its metabolites, oxygen...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Might also stem from heroin/6-MAM's ability to increase oxygen in the nucleus accumbens, relatively to morphine. Or more generally, one would think the pharmacokinetics of heroin/6-MAM would make perhaps more dopaminergic than morphine.

 

[G_Chem]

6-Monoacetylmorphine (6-MAM), Not Morphine, Is Responsible for the Rapid Neural Effects Induced by Intravenous Heroin - PubMed

Heroin rapidly enters the CNS but is quickly metabolized into 6-monoacetylmorphine (6-MAM) and then morphine. Although morphine is often thought to mediate heroin's neural effects, pharmacokinetic data question this view. To further understand the effects of heroin and its metabolites, oxygen...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Might also stem from heroin/6-MAM's ability to increase oxygen in the nucleus accumbens, relatively to morphine. Or more generally, one would think the pharmacokinetics of heroin/6-MAM would make perhaps more dopaminergic than morphine.

I’m glad you posted that article. I always wonder what would be better at equal dosages, DAM or 6-MAM. It seems they say DAM would still be better with its increased permeability allowing for increased levels of 6-MAM compared to 6-MAM itself, if I’m reading that right?

-GC

 

[G_Chem]

I was possibly gonna start another thread for this article but feel it fits here too. This article plays devil’s advocate a bit. It shows that even in morphine injected rats (opioid dependent rats) 6-MAM was present. This is due to an acetyltransferase enzyme that essential creates heroin in the body.

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.687.4881&rep=rep1&type=pdf

While this article hasn’t been replicated or proven the same in humans, it does raise interesting questions. Humans, from my light reading and poor pharmacological knowledge, also have these acetyltrasferase. I also saw an article that may have been finding 6-MAM in human urine samples not from heroin, but I couldn’t decipher the language enough to know for sure so excluded it.

I’m still in the camp the two drugs are different but this could possibly explain why some individuals find very little difference. Maybe acetyltransferase varies significantly between populations, where some people metabolize morphine into heroin and others don’t. I also wonder if the fact the rats were dependent played any role, as we know heroin bioavailability is increased when comparing naive to dependent individuals.

-GC

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

I've wanted to try pure 6-MAM for a long time but doubt I'll ever get access to it.

I've said in the past the heroin is just "user friendly morphine" but you're right there are subtle differences between them. I have never been able to obtain the morphine dreams effect with heroin alone. With morphine I can get there every time as long as I take the proper dose. For those that don't know what I'm talking about. It's a nod where entire scenes play out like a dream while still awake. It goes beyond a normal deep nod. It's like you can drift off and really be part of the dream instead of simply being an observer. It's why I preferred morphine to all other opioids.

I managed a similar effect with oxycodone + benzos once. I was never able to get there again. Since I find oxycodone more stimulating it's hard to slip into a state like that one with it. When I do it's mainly a result of exhaustion and I never go beyond a standard nod. Heroin was similar but I try not to assign hard effects to heroin because my sources were always street level dealers. It's very possible that I've never even had real heroin before. It wasn't common in the places I lived due to the abundance of pharmaceuticals. It only showed up once pills became harder to source and I'm sure the majority of it is just fentynal and random research chemicals.

I was so interested in the effects of 6-MAM that 5-6 years ago I planned to convert my supply of morphine into homebaked heroin with the hopes that my kitchen chemistry would produce a lot of 6-MAM as a by-product. I never went through with my plans. I couldn't risk losing my precious morphine with a botched experiment. If there were real heroin available to me I'd be very interested in exploring these questions in a controlled setting. Sadly, I do not think that will happen in my life time.

 

[G_Chem]

I've wanted to try pure 6-MAM for a long time but doubt I'll ever get access to it.

I've said in the past the heroin is just "user friendly morphine" but you're right there are subtle differences between them. I have never been able to obtain the morphine dreams effect with heroin alone. With morphine I can get there every time as long as I take the proper dose. For those that don't know what I'm talking about. It's a nod where entire scenes play out like a dream while still awake. It goes beyond a normal deep nod. It's like you can drift off and really be part of the dream instead of simply being an observer. It's why I preferred morphine to all other opioids.

I managed a similar effect with oxycodone + benzos once. I was never able to get there again. Since I find oxycodone more stimulating it's hard to slip into a state like that one with it. When I do it's mainly a result of exhaustion and I never go beyond a standard nod. Heroin was similar but I try not to assign hard effects to heroin because my sources were always street level dealers. It's very possible that I've never even had real heroin before. It wasn't common in the places I lived due to the abundance of pharmaceuticals. It only showed up once pills became harder to source and I'm sure the majority of it is just fentynal and random research chemicals.

I was so interested in the effects of 6-MAM that 5-6 years ago I planned to convert my supply of morphine into homebaked heroin with the hopes that my kitchen chemistry would produce a lot of 6-MAM as a by-product. I never went through with my plans. I couldn't risk losing my precious morphine with a botched experiment. If there were real heroin available to me I'd be very interested in exploring these questions in a controlled setting. Sadly, I do not think that will happen in my life time.

And for me I only ever got those with heroin.. Morphine was too sedating, just fall asleep.

I do believe there are opiate analogs that can reliably produce that state, Thebacon being one. I highly recommend you check out the one report on Erowid regarding it.

The possible opioid like compound/s in Cypripedium species seem to also provide these dream like states.

-GC

 

[Burnt Offerings]

I've wanted to try pure 6-MAM for a long time but doubt I'll ever get access to it.

I've said in the past the heroin is just "user friendly morphine" but you're right there are subtle differences between them. I have never been able to obtain the morphine dreams effect with heroin alone. With morphine I can get there every time as long as I take the proper dose. For those that don't know what I'm talking about. It's a nod where entire scenes play out like a dream while still awake. It goes beyond a normal deep nod. It's like you can drift off and really be part of the dream instead of simply being an observer. It's why I preferred morphine to all other opioids.

I managed a similar effect with oxycodone + benzos once. I was never able to get there again. Since I find oxycodone more stimulating it's hard to slip into a state like that one with it. When I do it's mainly a result of exhaustion and I never go beyond a standard nod. Heroin was similar but I try not to assign hard effects to heroin because my sources were always street level dealers. It's very possible that I've never even had real heroin before. It wasn't common in the places I lived due to the abundance of pharmaceuticals. It only showed up once pills became harder to source and I'm sure the majority of it is just fentynal and random research chemicals.

I was so interested in the effects of 6-MAM that 5-6 years ago I planned to convert my supply of morphine into homebaked heroin with the hopes that my kitchen chemistry would produce a lot of 6-MAM as a by-product. I never went through with my plans. I couldn't risk losing my precious morphine with a botched experiment. If there were real heroin available to me I'd be very interested in exploring these questions in a controlled setting. Sadly, I do not think that will happen in my life time.

6-MAM is a component of "black tar heroin". So if you've ever had that then you've had 6-MAM/3-MAM etc.

Speaking personally, I find very, very little difference between the psychoactive effect of "mixed morphine alkaloids" and just simple diamorphine. Morphine itself, perhaps more of a difference, but once you get past the pins-and-needles come-up and get to the actual baseline high, it's pretty similar too. All of it just ends in the experience of feeling "opiated" ime. But my tastes are perhaps not as refined as some

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

6-MAM is a component of "black tar heroin". So if you've ever had that then you've had 6-MAM/3-MAM etc.

I've never seen black tar here. I've heard it's around but it seems to be very rare. The Mexicans have pretty much been run out of the drug trade in my area. The homebake I spoke of basically produces the same thing as black tar on a smaller scale. It's just a crude conversion of morphine to diamorphine.

And for me I only ever got those with heroin.. Morphine was too sedating, just fall asleep.

I do believe there are opiate analogs that can reliably produce that state, Thebacon being one. I highly recommend you check out the one report on Erowid regarding it.

The possible opioid like compound/s in Cypripedium species seem to also provide these dream like states.

-GC

See this is why individual responses to drugs always have to be taken into account. The morphine is too sedating for you where I find it nearly impossible to fall asleep from it. I have yet to come across a drug that can reliably induce sleep. Even the heavy benzos only cause me to have black outs. Whatever switch in the brain produces sleep for normal people is stuck completely wide open in mine. The only thing they haven't thrown at me is GHB. I am sure even GHB would be unable to induce sleep for me in a sane dosage.

That's why substances that cause these waking dream states are so desirable to me. It's the only time I can really reach that state at all. I have only recently started to dream again from REM sleep. From the age of 14-30 I didn't dream at all. It wasn't a case of not remembering them I simply didn't have them anymore. Now that dreams have returned for me they're either completely terrifying or predictive.

 

[Skorpio]

I've never seen black tar here. I've heard it's around but it seems to be very rare. The Mexicans have pretty much been run out of the drug trade in my area. The homebake I spoke of basically produces the same thing as black tar on a smaller scale. It's just a crude conversion of morphine to diamorphine.


See this is why individual responses to drugs always have to be taken into account. The morphine is too sedating for you where I find it nearly impossible to fall asleep from it. I have yet to come across a drug that can reliably induce sleep. Even the heavy benzos only cause me to have black outs. Whatever switch in the brain produces sleep for normal people is stuck completely wide open in mine. The only thing they haven't thrown at me is GHB. I am sure even GHB would be unable to induce sleep for me in a sane dosage.

That's why substances that cause these waking dream states are so desirable to me. It's the only time I can really reach that state at all. I have only recently started to dream again from REM sleep. From the age of 14-30 I didn't dream at all. It wasn't a case of not remembering them I simply didn't have them anymore. Now that dreams have returned for me they're either completely terrifying or predictive.

At risk of derailing this thread, have you played with orexin receptor antagonists?
Ie https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suvorexant

The failure of hypnotics for you implies some other system drives wakefullness in your brain.

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

At risk of derailing this thread, have you played with orexin receptor antagonists?
Ie https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suvorexant

I haven't tried it and wouldn't because it requires breaking one of my personal rules. Basically, I no longer take drugs with less than 100 years of use in humans. My guess is this would give me similar effects as ambien. I would black-out after about 30 minutes, walk around my neighborhood naked, and ask the lesbians living across the street if their pet donkey ever joins them for sexy time. Last time I took ambien I spent an hour explaining geo-politics to the poor guys that my father sent over to work on the heat pump. I snorted 15mg about 15-20 minutes before they showed up to work. I'd been up for 3 days at that point and had totally forgotten about expecting visitors that afternoon.

The failure of hypnotics for you implies some other system drives wakefullness in your brain.

It's brain damage. It started happening after my first major concussion and got worse as I had more over the course of 2-3 years. Back then they didn't take concussions serious. They just sent me home with a bottle of xanax and warned me not to fall asleep for 24 hours. I've been to several medical professionals over the years trying to get treated for this inability to sleep. Most do not take me serious. The few that do tell me there is really nothing they can do for me because I can not afford health insurance. Typically, they toss me a bottle of whatever the last pharma rep brought samples for and label me a drug seeker when I refuse to take it. 9 times out of 10 it's some type of antidepressant prescribed off-label for insomnia.

Benzos worked for a little while. Now all they do is give me the munchies. So 30 minutes after laying in bed I'm back up standing in front of the refrigerator eating everything I can get my hands on.

I agree this is off topic. I'll look into this drug and see if it's worth considering. I would break my rule if a drug would actually work. I am convinced I'll never find something that can induce sleep. I've had to adjust my entire life because of this problem. I can not keep a schedule like normal people. I stay awake for 36-72+ hours then sleep for 6-16 hours. As you can probably imagine this makes it very hard to maintain employment or make plans to attend social functions. When I try to live like normal people I just end up having constant jet lag.

 

[Tryptamite]

Heroin is certainly easier to use. More water soluble than morphine. Don't have to use 3ml kits to shoot. 0.2g.

Wonder is morphine HCl is more soluble?

I find iv crack (cocaine citrate) to be different from iv coke HCl but I'm sure this is primarily down to cutting agents.

Morphine is certainly a bigger histamine release than H.

Would like to try different esters. Prope dope as limpet chicken was so fond of sounds v nice..

 

[G_Chem]

Heroin is certainly easier to use. More water soluble than morphine. Don't have to use 3ml kits to shoot. 0.2g.

Wonder is morphine HCl is more soluble?

I find iv crack (cocaine citrate) to be different from iv coke HCl but I'm sure this is primarily down to cutting agents.

Morphine is certainly a bigger histamine release than H.

Would like to try different esters. Prope dope as limpet chicken was so fond of sounds v nice..

What do you prefer IV crack or cocaine?

I’ve only tried the benzoylmorphine but definitely was different to heroin. Hard to know if other alkaloids were still present or what.. The benzoylmorphine had better legs it seemed with a tad less rush but so close I’d probably not tell the difference in a blind situation.

Oh man btw, I know you like your opiates. I’ve been playing around with honeys and discovered Rosemary Honey has fairly nice opiate activity. Actually too nice cuz I can’t seem to put it down, I’d say it’s actually better than kratom for me. Feels more like a true opiate. Check out my Honey Thread if you haven’t yet.

My wife was in a poor mood last night with a bad stomach so I gave her tea with a healthy portion which had her feeling right in no time. She slept good and to my surprise actually got up this morning in a good mood for work in months if not years. This shit really seems to work.

-GC

 

[fastandbulbous]

3-acetylation is simply to make morphine more lipid soluble, so it crosses the blood brain barrier, easier (phenolic OH groups are way more ploar). Doing anything to the 6-hydroxy group, generally increases potency (even the morphine major metabolite, formed by glucuronic acid esterification is 5 x the potency of morphine. It means the contents of urine, after ingesting morphine, are going to be more potent. Anybody bothering to isolate the metabolites from urine can discover it for themselves.
As an additional comment, it means that the human body is a means of manufacturing much more potent opiates: honestly, I'm not taking the piss! )

 

[papercuts]

I’ve been playing around with honeys and discovered Rosemary Honey has fairly nice opiate activity.

Is that rosemary cooked with honey or honey from rosemary fed bees? I happen to know a beekeeper who might be interested in the details

 

[G_Chem]

Is that rosemary cooked with honey or honey from rosemary fed bees? I happen to know a beekeeper who might be interested in the details

Bees that fed on Rosemary Nectar. Most of the nectar they bring back contains Kaempferol. Normally found in various glycoside forms in lots of food we eat, which our bodies don’t really have the enzymes to break down. The bees however do, making this normally not very active flavonoid much more so.

Kaempferol then releases B-endorphin among other things. I highly suggest checking out my Psychoactive Honey thread to learn a lot more!

-GC

 

[papercuts]

I highly suggest checking out my Psychoactive Honey thread to learn a lot more!

Found it