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Mixing MAOI with cacao?

In order to investigate the influence of Rhodiola rosea L. roots on mood disorders, three extracts were tested against monoamine oxidases (MAOs A and B) in a microtitre plate bioassay.
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I.e. they applied root extract directly to purified MAO enzymes in a petri dish. This is a far cry from administering it orally and having it be an effective MAOI.
 
red22 said:
Quote:

Can craving for chocolate be explained by its sensory properties – a high sugar and fat content, and a pleasant mouth feel due to the fact that it melts at body temperature? Or can it be explained by the presence of pharmacologically active substances, such as caffeine, phenylethylamine or magnesium, in chocolate?
A 50g bar of chocolate contains between 9mg (milk chocolate) and 31mg (dark chocolate) of caffeine. From the experiments presented by previous speakers, Professor Benton considered it unlikely that the dosage contained in a typical bar of chocolate would have much of an effect on altering mood, but it might contribute to a cumulative effect with other substances.
Another substance present in chocolate is phenylethylamine, which is also found in low concentrations in the brain. Phenylethylamine releases dopamine and therefore acts in the same way as amphetamines. One might predict that it is this which is ‘addictive’. Studies have demonstrated that 2-3g of phenylethylamine is needed to have anti-depressant properties, but a 50g bar of chocolate contains only a third of a milligram. Moreover, phenylethylamine is broken down readily by monoamine oxidase, so a monoamine oxidase inhibitor would be needed to stop it being broken down in the digestive system.

British Nutrition Foundation (1998) BNF conference report. Stimulating thoughts: caffeine and food. BNF Nutrition Bulletin. 23, Winter, 226-233.


The last two posts were wonderful, especially yours, atara. Thank you.
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cacao has no sugar or fat in it, and is full of the chemicals I mentioned. Your quote about the uselessness of chocolate bars as drugs does not apply.
 
er...cocoa has a little fat and a sizable amount of caffeine and thebromine (this is on the wikipedia page, even: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoa_solids). However, when consumed as sweetened chocolate, the quantity of psychoactive compounds is meager.

ebola
 
bloodshed344 said:
cacao has no sugar or fat in it, and is full of the chemicals I mentioned. Your quote about the uselessness of chocolate bars as drugs does not apply.
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Although the paper I quoted is speaking in terms of chocolate candy, the quantity of phenylethylamine in cacao is simply miniscule. This is clear. And the bioavailability is questionable (MAOI issue).


According to di Tomasao, et al., cacao is "rich in fat"; and it is the fat that contains potentially psychoactive cannabinoids. Note that cacao powder is partially defatted.

Cacao "butter":

B8l7HJq.gif

http://www.scratchmommy.com/cocoa-butter-its-uhmaaazing/


Several indications of cacao's psychoactive components developed in this thread, including -- in order posted -- tetra-hydro-β-carbolines, cannabinoids, salsolinol, and catechin & epicatechin. Of course, the quantity and bioavailability of all these things is highly questionable (this is even specifically stated in the papers on the THBCs and the cannabinoids article). This is all preliminary research. I also posted evidence that the rumored phenylethylamine is only a trace component of cacao.


di Tomaso E, Beltramo M, Piomelli D. Brain cannabinoids in chocolate, Nature 1996, 382(6593):677-678

Full copy:

Code: 
http://www.scienceinschool.org/repository/docs/issue2_nature_ditomasi1996.pdf
 
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I will make the anecdotal claim that 30g chocolate at 90% cocoa did actually seems to have mind altering effects shortly after eating it. Then when I dosed 75 mg of mdma and ~25mg 2cb about 4 hrs later it seemed to potentiate the effects by a lot especially the rushing stimulation and the body presence.

I attributed this mainly to the high content of phenylalanine (not phenethylamine like stated above), which is the precursor to a multitude of compounds (phenethylamine) that would make the roll stronger as well as probably having effects itself.
 
red22 said:
Although the paper I quoted is speaking in terms of chocolate candy, the quantity of phenylethylamine in cacao is simply miniscule. This is clear. And the bioavailability is questionable (MAOI issue).


According to di Tomasao, et al., cacao is "rich in fat"; and it is the fat that contains potentially psychoactive cannabinoids. Note that cacao powder is partially defatted.

Cacao "butter":

B8l7HJq.gif

http://www.scratchmommy.com/cocoa-butter-its-uhmaaazing/


The premise of this thread was mindless and ignorant, but it progressed into me posting several indications of cacao's psychoactive components, including -- in order posted -- tetra-hydro-β-carbolines, cannabinoids, salsolinol, and catechin & epicatechin. Of course, the quantity and bioavailability of all these things is highly questionable (this is even specifically stated in the papers on the THBCs and the cannabinoids article). This is all preliminary research. I also posted evidence that the rumored phenylethylamine is only a trace component of cacao.


di Tomaso E, Beltramo M, Piomelli D. Brain cannabinoids in chocolate, Nature 1996, 382(6593):677-678

Full copy:

Code: 
http://www.scienceinschool.org/repository/docs/issue2_nature_ditomasi1996.pdf
Click to expand...

Why are you talking about phenethylamine? I never said the phenethylamine in cacao is psychoactive.

but thanks for the info about the cannabinoids being in the fat of cacao.
 
The only reason I posted that quote is because it quantified the amount of phenylethyalmine in cacao, which is minuscule whether we're talking about chocolate or cacao. bloodshed344 originally mentioned phenylethylamine on the first page.
 
red22 said:
The only reason I posted that quote is because it quantified the amount of phenylethyalmine in cacao, which is minuscule whether we're talking about chocolate or cacao. bloodshed344 originally mentioned phenylethylamine on the first page.
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Ok. As far as I'm aware the only psychoactive (in psychoactive quantities) substances in cacao are theobromine and caffeine, correct? If so MAOI sounds like a bad time.
 
No, caffeine and theobromine don't mix badly with MAOIs. It's also important to note that cacao is more mild than energy drinks and coffee. It's also qualitatively different, too, producing a more well-rounded stimulant effect. Either the theobromine is substantial enough to account for this, or at least one of the chemicals mentioned in this thread is also at play. I think we've yet to fully evaluate the activity of things like flavor compounds. Consider the following information about myrcene, a non-cannabinoid found in cannabis as well as other plants (see below).

I forgot to mention that shortly after I made this thread, I did moclobemide before doing cacao, on at least two occasions. No effect.


Myrcene is a recognized sedative as part of hops preparations (Humulus lupulus), employed to aid sleep in Germany (Bisset and Wichtl, 2004). Furthermore, myrcene acted as a muscle relaxant in mice, and potentiated barbiturate sleep time at high doses (do Vale et al., 2002). Together, these data would support the hypothesis that myrcene is a prominent sedative terpenoid in cannabis, and combined with THC, may produce the ‘couch-lock’ phenomenon of certain chemotypes that is alternatively decried or appreciated by recreational cannabis consumers.


Russo, EB. Taming THC: potential cannabis synergy and phytocannabinoid-terpenoid entourage effects. 2010, British Journal of Pharmacology, p. 1350
http://freakshare.com/files/fmgn9of...d-terpenoid-entourage-effects--2011-.pdf.html
 
sekio said:
I seem to recall that rhodiola flavonoids (rosiridin etc), while they are in fact MAOIs, are micromolar as opposed to nanomolar level efficacy. So I have doubts how effective they are.

Here's a chart with figures I sourced from various bits of the internet. Clearly there are some MAOIS that are more effective than others.

LE6R6TG.png
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Can you further explain this chart? I mean, according to your chart, it looks like Rhodiola is a good MAO-B inhibitor and you didn't mention that.
 
Remember that smaller IC50 values indicate stronger binding.

ebola
 
cacao is high in phenylalanine, which is used by your body to make dopamine, adrenaline, phenethylamine and all sorts of other shit. that's why it's a damn nice stimulant and a notable potentiator of various drugs.
 
I have great results combining a Curcumin Extract (MAO-B inhibitor) with large amounts of dark chocolate. Nice clean dopaminergic feeling for about an hour.
 
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