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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

methadone, buprenorphine and other opioid pharmacotherapies

Be careful with methadone and oxy when me and my dad first got onto the methadone program (no longer on it,thank fuck) we each dosed 80mg of oxy each and it was enough to put my dad over luckily i didint go over or else I wouldn't be here to post this today.....also does anyone know of a phone number to website I could complain to for mistreatment whilst being on the methadone program...I feel I was unfairly treated and they even rang up my private doctor and lied to him about my drug use at the time so I had no choice but to go through the clinics doctors witch were plain assholes to say the least!
 
Hi Bluelight- i work in victoria for the new pharmacotherapy network. we're about to ask service users for their input about the system... i'm interested in all of your input too- the questions are here- let me know what you think of the questions, and feel free to feedback any answers too.




We can't tick boxes in posts, might want to create a poll on a separate site or rework your post so people can copy/paste the answer they select.
 
I had an operation whilst on bupe, a fairly simple one but enough to require a general, and was given fentanyl to knock me out. The guy was my father's medical friend though, so not sure if that made a difference. Never even thought about it until just now. Why didn't I go into massive precipitated withdrawal? Maybe I did but was just unconscious. Remember feeling a bit rough after waking up but chalked it up to the ordeal in general.
 
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The fentanyl would have been strong enough to overpower the bupe already in your system (assuming a decent dose), and was probably out of your system by the time you woke up and dosed your suboxone again.
 
Good point....
I'd be happy with any comments from people on a program, or who used to be on a program, or should be or would be....

Is there enough choice of prescribers?
do people have to travel a long way because there's no local prescribers?
do people have other GPs that they see for other things?
any suggestions or comments?

Help me make the system work better for you guys.... While we have this window of opportunity with the AOD reform and pharmacotherapy reform.....
 
any suggestions or comments?

Two issues:

1 - There needs to be a great deal more flexibility with take away (TA) doses. There need to be more of them, and they need to be given out earlier and at more regular intervals. What's the point of a program which is supposed to help people stabilize their life when in return it just ties them to their pharmacy/clinic? This causes an endless list of problems with work, study, social life, travel, etc. Even after you reach the maximum of 22 TA's a month after 18 months on the program, you still have to pick up your dose twice a week. They could easily increase it to 24 or 25 and allow the patients to only have to go once a week. This might not seem like a big deal, but after 18 months, let alone longer, you grow very, very tired of having to constantly pick up your dose (and this is speaking as someone with only a short travel time and a polite pharmacy which doesn't make me wait, I can only imagine how bad it is for those who travel an hour or even more, or deal with rude and discriminative pharmacists).

There should also be a much more even curve, instead of leaving massive 6 or 9 month gaps between increases, the extra TA's should be gained more gradually, every month or two. This provides a constant incentive to continue with the program, instead of knowing your TA doses won't be increased for half a year or more. Staring at a 6 month wait until you can at least not worry about having to go to the pharmacy at all on the weekends isn't much fun.

The current system is, iirc:

Months 1 - 2: 0 TA's

Months 3 - 9: 6 TA's

Months 9 - 18: 12 TA's

Months 18+: 22 TA's

A far more reasonable and effective system would be (for example) to give 6 TA's after one month, then an extra TA every month until the patient reaches 18 months. This provides a constant incentive - every time the patient renews their script, they know they're getting more freedom and earning more trust, instead of leaving massive plateaued gaps of months between large increases. It would also cap out a little higher, allowing patients to pick up once a week instead of twice (that might not seem like a big difference, but it is, even for someone like myself who only has a 10 minute walk to pick up their dose).

Alternatively, they could just prescribe the way they do any other medication, and give people a months supply at a time, either immediately, or after a certain amount of time on the program. I know this is unlikely (although they do it for suboxone in America and it works just fine there - and the US is hardly a bastion of progressive addiction treatment), but I believe the risk of extensive diversion would much lower than it's made out to be, especially for suboxone.



2 - The cost is exorbitant. It's well known that a large portion of the people on ORT survive on centrelink. The reasons for this are varied - some are unable to work while they seek treatment to address the issues which lead to their addiction in the first place, some are studying at TAFE or University or doing some kind of trade training program to get their life and long term career and income back on track. Regardless of the reason, paying between $5 and $10 a day results in a huge drop in income for people on benefits, or indeed, even for people working lower income jobs. Full time students, for example, get $380 a fortnight from centrelink, so the cost adds up to between 1/4 to over 1/3 of their income - on top of which they have to pay for transport, food, communication, and potentially rent. Even if they work part time on top of their student allowance, it's still a very tight squeeze, and only adds to the stress of study. I imagine it would be even worse for those who have children and are trying to put their family back together, or those who ended up with a criminal record as a result of their addiction and are unable to find work because of it. No matter where the patient is in life, it's almost certain that someone newly arrived on ORT is losing a big chunk of their income to the daily fee.

And for all that, what exactly is the $280 - $560 a month paying for? It can't be the medication itself - after all, a box of oxycontin or another strong opioid costs between $5 and $15 for a month's supply. If pain patients can be treated for that much, I don't see the justification for people on ORT therapy (many of whom have been pain patients in the past, or suffer from pain issues which lead to their addiction) paying a price so many times higher for their own medication. And it can't be the customer service at the pharmacy patients pay for, otherwise they would only have to pay for the days on which they attend the pharmacy, and not for days for which they are given a TA dose. There's no logic behind the absurd prices, and they're only counterproductive in the goal of keeping patients on ORT and off street opioids.
 
And for all that, what exactly is the $280 - $560 a month paying for? It can't be the medication itself - after all, a box of oxycontin or another strong opioid costs between $5 and $15 for a month's supply. If pain patients can be treated for that much,

That's not quite right, I pay depending on pharmacy $30 -$38 per box for 15mg and 20mg oxy, monthly spend is always over $65.
 
I've personally never seen anyone pay over $15 for a box of OC 40's/80's, and I've seen them pay as low as $6 - but fair enough, I guess it varies more than I thought, and I didn't take into account people buying multiple boxes for different meds.

But either way, it's still a fraction of what people pay for ORT.
 
that's great feedback. the cost thing is definately a huge issue and i've been told it's a turf war between stae and commonwealth governments. the commonwealth funds the drugs and thinks the states should fund the dispensing. state says no!!
the burnet institute have just put out a great position statement on dispensing fees, recommending sliding scales.

http://hrvic.org.au/wordpress/media/Policy-Brief-Lord-Kelsall-PDF.pdf

you dudes may have seen the coroners stats showing that the majority of methadone deaths are diverted doses- friends or 'friends' of the permit holder. looking bad for 'done t.a.'s.
 
what about travel distances etc? do people feel like they have enough choice? do you go to your doctor because you want to or because they are the only prescriber around?
is that a problem?
 
Is the 80mg Oxycontin that is currently prescribed in Australia only the new, OP formula?

Or are some patients still prescribed the old formula?

EDIT: Nevermind, obviously the answer is yes only OP is prescribed these days.
 
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that's great feedback. the cost thing is definately a huge issue and i've been told it's a turf war between stae and commonwealth governments. the commonwealth funds the drugs and thinks the states should fund the dispensing. state says no!!
the burnet institute have just put out a great position statement on dispensing fees, recommending sliding scales.

http://hrvic.org.au/wordpress/media/Policy-Brief-Lord-Kelsall-PDF.pdf

That was an interesting read - at least someone out there seems to grasp the issue. Thanks for the link.

you dudes may have seen the coroners stats showing that the majority of methadone deaths are diverted doses- friends or 'friends' of the permit holder. looking bad for 'done t.a.'s.

That's kind of begging the question, isn't it? Of course most methadone overdoses are diverted takeaways, as diverted takeaways are by far the greatest source of methadone sold or distributed illicitly.

I don't know how frequently methadone is prescribed for pain management, but if it is given out often in that context, then, speaking anecdotally, it rarely reaches the illicit market - in 5 years of opiate use I was only been offered methadone tablets (the formulation used for pain, as opposed to the liquid used for maintenance) once. By contrast, I had almost constant access to oxycodone and/or morphine, and occasional access to fentanyl and hydromorphone. This leads me to conclude that either it isn't prescribed frequently to pain patients, it isn't prescribed to those pain patients most likely to divert their meds, or it isn't picked up for further distribution by dealers and middle men because of a lack of demand (perceived or otherwise).

In fact I was very rarely offered diverted maintenance meds at all, compared to the constant availability of diverted pain medication. I'm not suggesting that we need some kind of crack down on pain management (to the contrary - but that's another topic), just pointing out that if we want to reduce opioid use, dependence and resulting deaths and to increase the effectiveness of ORT, the current system for TA doses isn't the way to go about it.

Not to mention that my hypothetical system, while it would result in TA's being gained somewhat earlier (although only slowly and gradually, which is the whole point), overall only grants an extra 1 - 2 TA's a month at the end of the spectrum - hardly a significant difference. And a reduction in price would, I'd imagine, result in less motivation to divert TA doses.

Of course, any change would come slowly and gradually, and hopefully while the effect it creates is being measured. It may be that suboxone could be prescribed monthly with no increase in harm while methadone could not (I imagine this is the case, going off the example of the US), or that prices could be reduced but TA's not increased, or that they could be increased slightly at the end of the time period to allow weekly pickups, but not granted earlier or more gradually. I guess my main point is that those two areas, TA's and pricing, are the ones which need the most change to make the system more effective.
 
yeah- there's no reward for trying to do the righty is there?

this is a quote by Dr Alan Gjisbers from an article in The Conversation:

"If someone can persuade any doctor that they have chronic pain rather than opioid dependence, they can have an even wider range of opioids – oxycodone, slow-release oral morphines and the like. The dispensing of these agents is much more liberal and patients don’t have to pay the dispensing fee. As one wag put it, “The only opioid dependent persons on substitution pharmacotherapy are those not clever enough to persuade their doctors they have chronic pain.”
 
“The only opioid dependent persons on substitution pharmacotherapy are those not clever enough to persuade their doctors they have chronic pain.”

Try doing that as a 20-something (and probably 30-something) male without something serious on an x-ray or MRI to back it up. Not gonna happen in a million years unless the doctor is dodgy.
 
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1 month and 2 take aways??? I had to wait atleast 6 months to be able to get 1 take away a week,bullshit!
 
My doctor was completely legit I had no x rays to back up my claim and I was only 19 at the time and I was able to get oxy norm and MS contins under the provisor that I was to see a physio even tho I never did see one ,even when I told my doctor about my overdose she prescribed me MS contins so that I wouldn't have to quit cold turkey she was such a legend!
 
im glad my clinic lets us get up to 2 weeks worth of take homes, altho i wish it was once a month like some states.
 
My doctor was completely legit I had no x rays to back up my claim and I was only 19 at the time and I was able to get oxy norm and MS contins under the provisor that I was to see a physio even tho I never did see one ,even when I told my doctor about my overdose she prescribed me MS contins so that I wouldn't have to quit cold turkey she was such a legend!

I'm not sure I'd call that completely legit, at least by the standards of most doctors, and the chance of finding a doctor willing to do that is incredibly low. I spent years bouncing around from doctor to doctor trying to find someone who could help with my back (along with trying other treatments, physio, acupuncture, etc), and the best I was ever given was the occasional box of panadeine forte. Most just told me to take some panadol (no shit, fuckface, if panadol helped I wouldn't be paying to get your "help") and wait for it to go away.
 
Just a heads up, but there are currently plans underway to reduce methadone takeaways by more than half in Victoria. They had leaflets when I went to the pharmacy to get my Suboxone announcing it. They were encouraging people who are on that program to contact the state representative responsible for the proposal to try and stop it. They (the kind pharmacy) wanted people to express how badly it would disable their daily lives by doing this. I'll grab one next time I'm there and write out the details here in full, including the contacts -- I didn't take one as am not personally on the program, but just now realize there would be plenty on here whose lives it would greatly negatively affect.

When I talked to the pharmacist about it she said it was because there have been lots of overdose deaths involving takeaway doses recently (morons giving it to their drunk friends mostly). She also said the ban will only apply to methadone, and not Suboxone, because Suboxone has proved to be a lot safer.

*EDIT: So here are the details. The people you need to contact to kindly dispute this are Premier Dr. Denis Napthine, and Hon. Mary Wooldridge. Petition slips have a simple "I ask that you continue the current Victorian Pharmacotherapy Policy allowing up to 5 take-away doses of methadone per week." So you might want to do something similar, along with briefly your situation and ramifications of the proposed changes on you. For further details on the campaign: http://savemymethadonetakeaways.org.au/

Hope that helps.
 
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