MDMA Recovery (Stories & Support - 7) [ALL LTC posts go here]

[Jabberwocky]

So 11+ months in I made a dumb mistake. I've relapsed!! I got really drunk the other night and although the alcohol was good and made me euphoric I've relapsed. The anxiety especially. Does anyone know if this is rather a quick recovery to baseline? I'd only recovered partially but my anxiety was a lot lower before this.

Alcohol messes with your HPA axis. You don't have MDMA long-term come down. You have a HPA axis dysregulation probably an anxiety disorder as well.

 

[Norway]

Alcohol messes with your HPA axis. You don't have MDMA long-term come down. You have a HPA axis dysregulation probably an anxiety disorder as well.

After research, HPA axis doesnt take 1 year, 2 years, 3 year+ to heal bro...

 

[Jabberwocky]

After research, HPA axis doesnt take 1 year, 2 years, 3 year+ to heal bro...

If you keep messing it up, it does.

And there's no scientific evidence for such a thing as MDMA LTC bro....

 

[Norway]

If you keep messing it up, it does.

And there's no scientific evidence for such a thing as MDMA LTC bro....

Read the forum posts.

No scientific evidence but you can argue its a trauma response, like PTSD of some sort.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Read the forum posts.

No scientific evidence but you can argue its a trauma response, like PTSD of some sort.

Which is a good basis for calling it. HPA axis dysregulation, since PTSD can actually cause HPA axis dysregulation from the over active excessive anxiety state.

It all comes back to the anxiety state. Anxiety feedback loop can definitely damage the HPA axis and cause it to be dysregulated.

The majority of people that have this so-called MDMA LTC convinced themselves that they were never going to get better, and caused their own horrible anxiety that made them sick. It's psychosomatic. It's real, it's just been caused by their belief that somehow MDMA poisoned them or made them sick.

Considering the fact that some percentage of people supposedly suffering from MDMA LTC-

!!! didn't actually ingest MDMA !!!!

-it is clear that it is not the substance rather the response to the belief or the response to the effects of MDMA-like substances that causes this apparent syndrome.

 

[Richi1]

Read the forum posts.

No scientific evidence but you can argue its a trauma response, like PTSD of some sort.

I’m not a medical professional so I won’t go out of my depth and label the condition as anything. However I do agree that it’s probably some type of trauma response.

I think the comedown initially did have very real symptoms like the dp/dr, tremors, etc. However I think over time we’ve created negative feedback loops every time a symptom occurred and this excessive thinking has given birth to more symptoms.

One thing that’s still a mystery to me is the tinnitus however. You’ll see lots of reports of this condition with tinnitus as a symptom and actually as one of the last symptoms to remain…

When I saw a psychiatrist about this his diagnosis report came back with severe GAD and symptoms of PTSD

 

[Richi1]

Which is a good basis for calling it. HPA axis dysregulation, since PTSD can actually cause HPA axis dysregulation from the over active excessive anxiety state.

It all comes back to the anxiety state. Anxiety feedback loop can definitely damage the HPA axis and cause it to be dysregulated.

The majority of people that have this so-called MDMA LTC convinced themselves that they were never going to get better, and caused their own horrible anxiety that made them sick. It's psychosomatic. It's real, it's just been caused by their belief that somehow MDMA poisoned them or made them sick.

Considering the fact that some percentage of people supposedly suffering from MDMA LTC-

!!! didn't actually ingest MDMA !!!!

-it is clear that it is not the substance rather the response to the belief or the response to the effects of MDMA-like substances that causes this apparent syndrome.

Thank you Mr PhD. You’ve clearly got this so much better figured out than the rest of us. You’re like a beacon of hope, please continue to enlighten us.

 

[anon1644]

I’m not a medical professional so I won’t go out of my depth and label the condition as anything. However I do agree that it’s probably some type of trauma response.

I think the comedown initially did have very real symptoms like the dp/dr, tremors, etc. However I think over time we’ve created negative feedback loops every time a symptom occurred and this excessive thinking has given birth to more symptoms.

One thing that’s still a mystery to me is the tinnitus however. You’ll see lots of reports of this condition with tinnitus as a symptom and actually as one of the last symptoms to remain…

When I saw a psychiatrist about this his diagnosis report came back with severe GAD and symptoms of PTSD

i still have head pressure and tinnitus since 2017. cycles back and forth between better periods and worse periods no matter what type of mental health or migraine med i try

 

[Norway]

N

If it was MDMA, then ONLY people that took MDMA would get "LTC". But, people that took something else also get "LTC".

The most common etiology is that someone has an experience with some sort of entactogenic stimulant, or sometimes they get no objective experience from the substance, however, all these people feel that something is wrong with them either immediately following or a few days after the experience.

The overwhelming majority of people are convinced even in the absence of any medical evidence that something is extremely wrong with them because they took the substance.

More than one person has identified a completely different cause for their syndrome once they saw reason.

Some posters have put on here that it's a trauma response. That's likely the case, self-inflicted mental trauma due to an unfounded belief that they were damaged by a substance.

A lot of it is likely caused by the completely false meme that a recreational dose of MDMA is neurotoxic. It's nothing of the sort, else they would not give it to volunteers. That would violate medical ethics. In fact, they have done PET scans before and after administration and have identified there's absolutely no evidence of neurotoxicity whatsoever.

Is very easy for physical or psychological trauma to dysregulate the HPA axis. It is also difficult to re-regulate the HPA axis while there is an anxiety, state, for psychological turmoil.

I believe a large majority of the people that state they suffer continuing LTC have simply convinced themselves that something is wrong with their mental state or their physical state. Especially, when medical professionals cannot find anything wrong.

Nobody on earth were convinced they were damaged after the MDMA. As the days went by, things just happened out of nowwhere. A completely random anxiety attack is not caused by a simple negative thought, at least not in my experience. If it was like that, wouldnt like 10-20% of people in this world have LTC? I call bullshit.

In my opinion you cant "think" your way out of it, rather you have to cope with your symptoms and enhance neuroplasticity. HPA axis dysregulation is very reductionist to say, and just a filler for people who already are very anxious about being braindamaged.

Its clear that the nervous system is wrecked down, and not functioning. This is not due to self-inflicted trauma. Hardly anybody here thinks that.

 

[Norway]

You can go back and read posts on this thread where people were convinced they were poisoned by one pill or a half a pill, they started feeling bad the day after. It's all over this thread.

Because of the heightened fight or flight state that happens from MDMA and other related substances, there is a huge amount of cortisol, adrenaline and noradrenaline. These can heighten a emotional trauma to the point where it causes HPA axis disregulation or an actual anxiety disorder.

A single thought can cause heart palpitations. Literally arrhythmia. You're obviously very uninformed.

Okay, doctor.

With all due respect have you even had something like this before? I wouldnt drar conclusions about other sufferers bro.

 

[semisober]

If it was MDMA, then ONLY people that took MDMA would get "LTC". But, people that took something else also get "LTC".

The most common etiology is that someone has an experience with some sort of entactogenic stimulant, or sometimes they get no objective experience from the substance, however, all these people feel that something is wrong with them either immediately following or a few days after the experience.

The overwhelming majority of people are convinced even in the absence of any medical evidence that something is extremely wrong with them because they took the substance.

More than one person has identified a completely different cause for their syndrome once they saw reason.

Some posters have put on here that it's a trauma response. That's likely the case, self-inflicted mental trauma due to an unfounded belief that they were damaged by a substance.

A lot of it is likely caused by the completely false meme that a recreational dose of MDMA is neurotoxic. It's nothing of the sort, else they would not give it to volunteers. That would violate medical ethics. In fact, they have done PET scans before and after administration and have identified there's absolutely no evidence of neurotoxicity whatsoever.

Is very easy for physical or psychological trauma to dysregulate the HPA axis. It is also difficult to re-regulate the HPA axis while there is an anxiety, state, for psychological turmoil.

I believe a large majority of the people that state they suffer continuing LTC have simply convinced themselves that something is wrong with their mental state or their physical state. Especially, when medical professionals cannot find anything wrong.

This is really reductionist…

Are some people who are suffering from “LTC” symptoms suffering from either a psychological condition or a physical response from sustained stress induced from temporary, acute disruptions caused by MDMA? Sure, almost certainly.

But there is also tons of anecdotal and study based evidence that mdma can cause long term neurological issues if abused. It is pretty reasonable to suspect that in a very small % of users, whatever chemical process in the brain that causes the damage randomly occurred from less usage. The mechanism for such action clearly exists. We may be talking about a 3 or 4 deviation outlier for this to happen, but as we know from all drug reactions, such responses are not uniform.

Dismissing them and saying that it all has to be the same triggering issue in all cases is nonsensical.

 

[Norway]

Hippocampal remodelling after MDMA neurotoxicity: a single case study - PubMed

Acute ingestion of MDMA (ecstasy) causes a transient marked increase in serotonin and dopamine at central synapses. Recent studies demonstrated that MDMA induces damage of serotonergic nerve terminals and alters hippocampal processing. Pronounced cognitive deficits in MDMA users affect learning...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I found this really interesting. This is scientific evidence.

 

[Richi1]

It’s become very apparent that there’s two ends of the spectrum here.

On one end there’s the highly anxious catastrophic thinkers that are certain they’re brain damaged, and the other end that are entirely reductionist and think some multivitamins and positive thinking is the solution.

The reason you get such a sour response from sufferers when you tell them it’s all just anxiety is because it’s like telling a cancer patient they’ve got cancer because they haven’t been taking enough vitamin d or something trivial like that.

It’s just insulting to reduce, perhaps the most turbulent and challenging part of someone’s life, into something trivial like a vitamin deficiency or anxiety - or even worse - that this condition doesn’t exist and it’s all in our head. Don’t insult our intelligence. You haven’t the slightest clue how distressing this ordeal has been or the faintest idea of how tough some of the days have been, even if you claim to know.

My fellow long haulers, it’s perfectly fine to feel despair at times. But don’t give up. You will improve over time, i promise - stay strong as you have done already for so long now!

 

[Norway]

It’s become very apparent that there’s two ends of the spectrum here.

On one end there’s the highly anxious catastrophic thinkers that are certain they’re brain damaged, and the other end that are entirely reductionist and think some multivitamins and positive thinking is the solution.

The reason you get such a sour response from sufferers when you tell them it’s all just anxiety is because it’s like telling a cancer patient they’ve got cancer because they haven’t been taking enough vitamin d or something trivial like that.

It’s just insulting to reduce, perhaps the most turbulent and challenging part of someone’s life, into something trivial like a vitamin deficiency or anxiety - or even worse - that this condition doesn’t exist and it’s all in our head. Don’t insult our intelligence. You haven’t the slightest clue how distressing this ordeal has been or the faintest idea of how tough some of the days have been, even if you claim to know.

My fellow long haulers, it’s perfectly fine to feel despair at times. But don’t give up. You will improve over time, i promise - stay strong as you have done already for so long now!

Inshallah

 

[G_Chem]

Hippocampal remodelling after MDMA neurotoxicity: a single case study - PubMed

Acute ingestion of MDMA (ecstasy) causes a transient marked increase in serotonin and dopamine at central synapses. Recent studies demonstrated that MDMA induces damage of serotonergic nerve terminals and alters hippocampal processing. Pronounced cognitive deficits in MDMA users affect learning...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I found this really interesting. This is scientific evidence.

I’m sorry but that’s a single case study of a 16yr old self reporting use and then drawing conclusions. What if she lied to not look so bad? It’s literally a single person. Case studies are one of the lowest forms of research.

While I don’t agree with shugenjas rather blunt way of putting things, he’s onto something.

I’ve said this before but I used to study this issue extensively and have talked with countless people who’ve suffered through this. It started to show itself around 2011-12 or so. Looking back that’s when very pure MDMA was becoming available in large quantities. Never before had it been available in pure form at such scale, ecstasy pills are a pre measured dose making titration easier for many without scales.

There was very often a certain type of individual who would experience this. Often times they were young, college students who had very little drug experience up to this point in comparison to others using MDMA. Very often there would be some anxious moment during the trip that would resolve, and many would feel fine for a few days only to get symptoms through that week.

Many thought they’d done permanent damage. The lack of drug experience and based on their background an obvious desire to fit the conforms of society, I feel can create anxiety and guilt/shame that manifests itself in strange ways.

I also noticed that among those who experienced this, the folks who recovered quickly BELIEVED they would recover. Those that stubbornly sat in their rut of beliefs that they were permanently damaged stayed that way.

I did at one time believe this could be a magnesium deficiency issue. Many have come back to me to report magnesium along with other neurogenesis boosting activities has healed them.

Problem is, this condition can be caused by a wide variety of drugs. Which then kind of shits all over the idea only “neurotoxic” MDMA did it. I’ve used MDMA since I was 16, I’m mid 30’s now and feel it’s only been a positive thing in my life.

At the end of the day, no matter what caused it. Neurogenesis is your best chance out of it. I’ve experienced true chemically induced neurotoxicity from cisplatin chemotherapy. (Literally pump you full of platinum for hours.) Eat neurogenesis inducing foods, take neurogenesis inducing drugs, but most of all MOVE! Workout as often as you can despite how you feel.

-GC

 

[Richi1]

When I look back at how I took the drug it probably was highly irresponsible but that’s because I did it on a whim not knowing how powerful it was. I basically snorted two fat lines one day and it did nothing so I left it. During that night I felt brain zaps but nothing else out of the ordinary. The following night I swallowed an eyeballed amount and that’s when it really worked.

I then felt so orgasmically good I stupidly swallowed half of what I had earlier within like half an hour.

I previously mistakenly said I took 200mg but I think in total over those two days it was 500-600mg, it was definitely a little over half the bag.

But I know people that have taken entire fuckin gram in one night with no issues.

Where recovery is concerned I have no doubt I will - it’s not brain damage or anything permanent. And I truly feel like I’m close, but it’s super duper slow.

 

[G_Chem]

When I look back at how I took the drug it probably was highly irresponsible but that’s because I did it on a whim not knowing how powerful it was. I basically snorted two fat lines one day and it did nothing so I left it. During that night I felt brain zaps but nothing else out of the ordinary. The following night I swallowed an eyeballed amount and that’s when it really worked.

I then felt so orgasmically good I stupidly swallowed half of what I had earlier within like half an hour.

I previously mistakenly said I took 200mg but I think in total over those two days it was 500-600mg, it was definitely a little over half the bag.

But I know people that have taken entire fuckin gram in one night with no issues.

Where recovery is concerned I have no doubt I will - it’s not brain damage or anything permanent. And I truly feel like I’m close, but it’s super duper slow.

The one thing I forgot to mention, usually the dosage is fairly large too. As you experienced. It’s completely understandable though for someone new to a drug to not know how to dose it properly. 500-600mg would have me absolutely fried.

I’m lucky in that when I first started, ecstasy was common and you could figure out a proper dose fairly easily. Also price back then made taking 500mg in one go, umm prohibited lol.

There’s research to show MDMA pre-conditioning can protect from later neurotoxic doses. Let’s assume for a second this is some form of neurotoxicity.. This research indicates that if one consumes lower, nontoxic doses they’ll be afforded protection from toxic doses at a later date.

To me this signifies that one is probably very sensitive to neurotoxicity of MDMA on their first few tries. This is why it’s more important than any other drug to titrate, because as you do you’re essentially creating a protective measure for any future neurotoxic doses.

Once again, no matter the cause… Neurogenesis. Shit simply experiencing this trauma causes neurotoxicity, depression and anxiety are in their own way neurotoxic.

-GC

 

[semisober]

Neurogenesis is definitely one of, if not THE, best options for improvement. That said, it’s very unclear what sorts of deficits can improve. There is hope that research being done on neurodegenerative disease and long COVID could offer medical interventions in the future.

How to Generate New Neurons in the Brain - Neuroscience News

After discovering the importance of cell metabolism in neurogenesis, researchers were able to increase the number of neurons in the brains of adult and elderly mice.

neurosciencenews.com

Research into the metabolic health of the brain is also really compelling. I recommend reading Brain Energy by Chris Palmer. I’m also very interested in this study:

Combined metabolic activators improve cognitive functions in Alzheimer's disease patients: a randomised, double-blinded, placebo-controlled phase-II trial - PubMed

Our results indicate that treatment of AD patients with CMA can lead to enhanced cognitive functions and improved clinical parameters associated with phenomics, metabolomics, proteomics and imaging analysis. Trial registration ClinicalTrials.gov NCT04044131 Registered 17 July 2019...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

These interventions align with the conventional wisdom that we have through anecdotal stories: good diet, good sleep, exercise, stress mitigation, supplements.

There isn’t a magic bullet, and it won’t be a quick fix (as I can attest, as it’s been 5 years of me trying things intermittently), but there is at least some hope there.

 

[Mystery10]

I think it's possible, I've noticed back in the days improvement when I took anti inflammatory meds or lifestyle changes, even had some posts about it

What were the names of your meds?

 

[badooking]

I think personally something real physiological happened and yes it is HPA dysfunction. When I had LTC, I used TRT (testosterone) and HCG which helped a lot along with Pregnenolone.

i had done tests and in the beginning my preg levels were bottomed out, thats not normal.