MDMA Neurotoxicity

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I think I took some of these similar pills as well! These piperazines were actually trialed as anti depressants a long time ago, I think they had an okay toxicity profile but they just had too many acute side effects like GI tract stuff and vomiting etc, and also insomnia (like you said they are kinda speedy) which I think is the big one that made it not make it to the market. Piperazines are fairly common in regular ecstasy though (or at least they were a couple years ago), but I don't think they are horrible neurotoxins or anything I remember looking into this a long time ago after some of my pills tested out as piperazines.

I really think you would totally thank yourself for religiously doing cardio a decade or two from now. I think it could be dramatic just how different your health situation is in your old age if you do regular cardio.

 

[Jiraiya]

Hey Dresden, thanks for the info there. It's definitely helpful. There's no doubt about it that I am experiencing anxiety and I have fueled it with my internet search. There is a part of me that doesn't want to let go of the past. I really need to work on this aspect of myself.

Cotcha, yeah they used to sell them legally here in New Zealand. I only took them when I was 17, which is 8 years ago! And all I experienced was the comedown which lasted around 12 hours. Had no long term effects whatsoever, certainly didn't have any nausea. Yet my scumbag of a brain now is saying "nope this gave you brain damage".

 

[Jiraiya]

Do you know if Piperazines are as strong as speed or MDMA? I read that BZP is about 1/10th the strength of amphetamines, but it doesn't mention if this is the case for all Piperazines. The dose I took 8 years ago could have been up to a gram over the course of the night, although I will never know how much I took because it was such a long time ago. I don't remember anything about the pills, but the strongest on the market were 250-500mg per pill.

 

[JayAZ]

Good choice

and listening to some Jon Kabat Zinn meditations.

Hey, just to share, I used to work with Jon Kabat Zinn. Our whole division, except for his team, were the most hellish people you'd never want to work with, and I yelped with joy my last day there as I drove away for the final time.

Jon and the staff he oversaw were totally different though. For one, he was very kind and courteous and was genuinely interested in others' well-being. When he asked, "How are you?" he really did care enough to want to be told the truth, not a flippant, "I'm fine."

He scheduled time just about every week in our conference room to lead meditation sessions with the lights off. People besides his team were welcome to attend, but we dared not because our own supervisors seriously would have considered our going to be mutiny, onward to the path of being fired. They were jealous of Jon because he was/is well known outside of academia and has earned his fair share of royalties over the years. His colleagues (our supervisors) decided he was vain because his annual income certainly must have exceeded theirs. They dismissed him, out of spite, as a non-scholar, I suspect because publishing a peer-reviewed article in a scientific journal almost always pays exactly $0. He had enough confidence in his work and life calling to not be bothered by their behind-his-back barbs.

Because Jon was not my supervisor -- mine was pure evil -- I learned how NOT to treat people while working there. Learning what not to do has taught me my own life's best lessons. It's the Golden Rule, but backward, which I think has more impact (no disrespect to Jesus, of course): "Don't do unto others as you wouldn't want done unto you."

JKZ is the real thing and he's not at all about hoodwinking people to make a buck.

Take care.

 

[Jiraiya]

Hey, just to share, I used to work with Jon Kabat Zinn. Our whole division, except for his team, were the most hellish people you'd never want to work with, and I yelped with joy my last day there as I drove away for the final time.

Jon and the staff he oversaw were totally different though. For one, he was very kind and courteous and was genuinely interested in others' well-being. When he asked, "How are you?" he really did care enough to want to be told the truth, not a flippant, "I'm fine."

He scheduled time just about every week in our conference room to lead meditation sessions with the lights off. People besides his team were welcome to attend, but we dared not because our own supervisors seriously would have considered our going to be mutiny, onward to the path of being fired. They were jealous of Jon because he was/is well known outside of academia and has earned his fair share of royalties over the years. His colleagues (our supervisors) decided he was vain because his annual income certainly must have exceeded theirs. They dismissed him, out of spite, as a non-scholar, I suspect because publishing a peer-reviewed article in a scientific journal almost always pays exactly $0. He had enough confidence in his work and life calling to not be bothered by their behind-his-back barbs.

Because Jon was not my supervisor -- mine was pure evil -- I learned how NOT to treat people while working there. Learning what not to do has taught me my own life's best lessons. It's the Golden Rule, but backward, which I think has more impact (no disrespect to Jesus, of course): "Don't do unto others as you wouldn't want done unto you."

JKZ is the real thing and he's not at all about hoodwinking people to make a buck.

Take care.

That's awesome man. I never had any doubts that he was a genuine guy, just always had a good feeling about him. Did you know him quite well?

 

[Jiraiya]

On another note, shitttttttt. I found out what those party pills I took where (the piperazines I took back in 2007). The pills were called Whizzers. I could only find very limited info on the internet in relation to them, however I did find a Bluelight post from 2006 and a guy on there mentioned that the pills were pure BZP 300mg. Well me and my mates took 4-5 pills that night hahahaha, so that would equal about 1.5 grams! Jesus fucking christ lol. That would explain why I didn't sleep and the next day was essentially hell. Worst comedown I'd ever experienced and I had to work a night shift too. Luckily by the next day I was pretty much good to go and suffered no anxiety or long term effects. I didn't even have anxiety at this time so I'm guessing it didn't give me 'brain damage' or whatever.

Question for Coacha, or anyone who knows more about this. Everything I've read online states that BZP is 10 to 20 times less potent than D-amphetamine. Does this mean that 1.5 grams of BZP would be similar to say 150mg of speed or meth? Or is it not that simple/linear?

 

[Dresden]

The standard recommended dose for BZP was 150mg. At this level, it felt like 30 or maybe 60mg of Adderall to me. Maybe a little better qualitatively. The other piperazine they added to those pills for the 5-HT component was 3-trifluoromethylphenylpiperazine IIRC. It was largely worthless. I would imagine that if you did take 1.5 grams of BZP in one session, you might be in for some bad side effects. The piperazines have since fallen off the radar after being declared Schedule I drugs, the most restricted class, although N-methyl-BZP was on the research scene a year or so ago. Based on my limited experience with BZP, I would still say that 1.5 grams of it would do a lot more harm than 150mg of methamphetamine.

BZP

N-methyl-4-benzylpiperazine

TFMPP

Good riddance to the sucky piperazines if sold as MDMA!

mCPP, a have heard some really good reports on this one; however, I have never personally tried it.

 

[Jiraiya]

The standard recommended dose for BZP was 150mg. At this level, it felt like 30 or maybe 60mg of Adderall to me. Maybe a little better qualitatively. The other piperazine they added to those pills for the 5-HT component was 3-trifluoromethylphenylpiperazine IIRC. It was largely worthless. I would imagine that if you did take 1.5 grams of BZP in one session, you might be in for some bad side effects. The piperazines have since fallen off the radar after being declared Schedule I drugs, the most restricted class, although N-methyl-BZP was on the research scene a year or so ago. Based on my limited experience with BZP, I would still say that 1.5 grams of it would do a lot more harm than 150mg of methamphetamine.

BZP

N-methyl-4-benzylpiperazine

TFMPP

Good riddance to the sucky piperazines if sold as MDMA!

mCPP, a have heard some really good reports on this one; however, I have never personally tried it.

Thanks for the reply Dresden. I don't know if you missed part of my above comment, but this is the dose that I took almost NINE years ago (the pills were spread out through the night), I was 17 at the time and I'm 26 now. I didn't get any bad side effects except that I didn't sleep that night - not surprising haha. But yeah, I haven't touched BZP since 2007. I wasn't the only one taking these doses, as these pills were very popular in my country back then as they were legal. I pretty much suffered the comedown the next day and that was it. I had no lingering effects and felt back to normal the day after the comedown - in fact, the next few years after this were some of the best of my life. I didn't even suffer from anxiety back then.

So when you say that I may be in for some bad side effects, this is obviously irrelevant now right because the dose was so long ago?

Just for the record I haven't used any drugs in over two years, they are a thing of the past for me.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I always thought it was interesting that mCPP was an activate metabolite of Trazadone and was known to cause false positives for MDMA because I believe it's a MDMA metabolite as well..

I a study showed that BZP was 1/10th as strong as meth but could be used as a substitute in addicted rats. That being said meth is isn't as bad as it's made out to be. But it' seems it's not very neurotoxic aside from toxicity from overstimulation of the sympathetic nervous system, which you would most definitely know about You would also definitely know if it affected you right away. It just has bad peripheral side effects because of its adrenaline and serotonin affinities.

Don't let the anxiety get to ya!

 

[Jiraiya]

Ah ok. Well if it's only a tenth of the strength then why would 1500mg BZP be more harmful than 150mg of meth or Adderall? I did a bit of reading on the internet the other day and pretty much all sources confirmed that BZP was a tenth, if not a twentieth of the strength as d-amphetamine. One source even confirmed that BZP was comparable to caffeine.

I guess there's no point worrying about it though, because my anxiety didn't even start until 2013 - over six years later (I had a few minor bouts of anxiety before that in 2011-2012 due to life circumstances, but it was nothing I could handle and would only last a week max), so I'm sure I didn't do any damage. Like I said, the day after the BZP comedown I was as right as rain.

I would imagine that if you did take 1.5 grams of BZP in one session, you might be in for some bad side effects.

Dresden, by this you obviously meant at the time of taking the drugs right? Obviously not now, considering this was nine years ago. Sorry just trying to interpret this the right way, I assume you mean the side effects whilst on the drug/comedown.

 

[Jiraiya]

Actually, fuck it. I need to stop dwelling on the past. I'm just going to accept this as anxiety. I can see that all I've been doing these past few months is freaking myself out and reinforcing the whole thing!

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Bravo! Anxiety is a tricky demon.

 

[SONN]

Some have suggested that MDMA neurotoxicity may be related to its putative therapeutic effects.

I actually think they're right about that, but the "neurotoxicity" they're describing is not necessarily a toxic process. It definitely could "destroy" the mechanism the in the brain that causes people to have PTSD episodes and permanently prevent a lot of stress signals that were hard wired into your brain.

Our association complex is constantly changing, the outer edges(like the frontal cortex) of our brain are kind of constantly making new signals, new associations that are all in relation to yourself and the perception of yourself. When you change your perception of yourself, in a way it allows your brain to make a whole new association complex based off this new headspace you're in.

my point is that a lot of changes are happening in the brain when you do MDMA, and my personal belief is that any "neurotoxicity" is actually the pain you let go of and all the associations you left behind with your old perception of yourself.

I'd really like to know what their definition of "neurotoxicity" is.

Although we are not aware that this hypothesis has been advanced, one could argue that loss of axons represents a non-neurotoxic form of neuroplasticity, or benign change in the nerve cell in response to drugs. Non-neurotoxic (though not necessarily beneficial) morphological changes can occur in the CNS as the result of alterations in serotonin levels (reviewed in Azmitia 1999). It appears more likely, however, that these changes are, in fact, the result of damage, specifically damage involving oxidative stress.

In general, neural cell damage can be detected by two techniques, using silver staining and measuring the expression of glilal fibrillary acidic protein (GFAP). Not all neurotoxic regimens using MDMA are able to demonstrate increased silver staining or GFAP expression. These techniques seem to detect MDMA-induced alterations only at doses higher than those needed to affect serotonergic function (Commins, 1987; O'Callaghan, 1993). Furthermore, the MDMA-induced cell damage detected by silver staining appears to occur in nonserotonergic cells

If I had to guess I would say that the "nonserotonergic cells" were probably adrenal that were party responsible for the panic response induced by PTSD.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I actually had a theory about this too! My theory was essentially that the excitatory serotonin neuron heterodimers (likely 5-HT2A/mGlu2/3) were trimmed during high dose MDMA abuse and this could be therapeutic, especially if those trimmed axons were really connecting to other parts of the brain related to the hormonal stress response.

 

[TheBlackPirate]

Pure MDMA isn't neurotoxic at normal recreational doses. The studies demonstrating toxicity involve extremely high doses over long durations and they haven't got any good explanation of what causes those neurological changes.

Ecstasy Eats Holes in Your Brain.

This myth began circa 2000, when both MTV and Oprah Winfrey aired shows erroneously making this claim. The claim was based on an incorrectly interpreted scan of an ecstasy user’s brain. In the scan, there appeared to be holes in the brain tissue, but in fact this was an illusion caused by the way a computer coded the image. The spaces that looked like holes were actually areas of decreased bloodflow. It was a striking image, and it hooked the public’s imagination. The following year, the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) alleged that ecstasy caused permanent brain damage. Ten years later, though, NIDA reversed its position completely, issuing a study concluding that, when factors like sleep deprivation and previous drug use are accounted for, ecstasy may not harm your brain at all.

http://www.alternet.org/drugs/10-drug-myths

 

[Jiraiya]

Thanks TheBlackPirate, that helps.

Well I did alright by accepting the whole thing as anxiety for a while, and I actually started to get a bit better. Now I'm in a setback and my mind is in overdrive again. My stupid mind is now telling me that the LSD I took back in the day has fried my brain (I've took it 5 times total - once every 1-2 years, mostly half tabs). Uggghh this never ends :/

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Maybe you have an underlying disorder in the spectrum of mania, you might think about medicating this

 

[Jiraiya]

Edit: Sorry man, I deleted my original replies because I don't want to reinforce the idea that I might have a manic disorder - this is something else that I find really fucking scary, but I'll retype it.

Awww come on man, the last thing I need is more things to worry about haha. I've never ever had a manic episode in my life. I was diagnosed with GAD. Would hate to think this is more than anxiety/dp. In terms of medication I'd rather keep away from the stuff and just focus on a healthy diet/exercise and meditation/mindfulness.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Sorry I should've been clearer, when I said "in the spectrum of mania" I really meant you might have an overactive mind that you might think about medicating with something like Mirtazapine. I'm all for healthy living as long as you're happy but if you're not then I'd definitely support you trying out some meds to help out with an overactive mind that would work best in conjunction with mindfulness. I do think mindfulness is the long term cure though, but I would want you to know (especially if you're feeling down) that there are tons of medications out there (not SSRIs, they aren't very good).

 

[Jiraiya]

Thanks for clarifying man, I thought you were suggesting bipolar or something and I was like whattttt, haha. I'll definitely keep the meds in mind if I don't see any progress. I'm keeping up with the mindfulness and meditations so hopefully I start seeing some progress soon. Another thing I'm actually going to give up for a while is alcohol. While this whole thing has been going on (apart from when it was at it's worst in Oct/Nov) I've still been going out and partying, I think this is part of the problem and it's keeping my body in an anxious state. I was definitely getting somewhere, I just need to detach myself from the whole 'drugs fucked me up' fear. I'm still easily triggered by this, and the reason I freaked out about the LSD yesterday was due to a post on facebook I saw. But as far as I know LSD isn't even neurotoxic, and I've never had a bad trip lol.

On a side note I start work again next week so this may be just what I need. I also started playing Final Fantasy 14 Heavensward online which is an MMO, which is keeping my mind off all this crap too.